Clarification of rules 8.5.2 and 8.5.2.1

[flack jacket]

8.5.2

"If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in applicable handgun ready conditions. (section 8.1) Violations may be subject to match disqualification." (10.5.11)

Just wanted to ask the NORI or more experienced guys.

I ask because during my pre-stage "Make ready", I found it more secure and for me to :

1. Use barney mag

2. Load,on safe, remove barney mag then holster. So both hands are free

3. Draw and insert fully charged magazine, holster again for "are you ready"

VS. Holding pistol up and pointed down range in shooting hand while manipulating gear on my belt.

I also do this routine during Steel Challenge course during "Outer Limits" after my shooting run. Holster, on safe while hot, then walk back to starting box.

Just clarifying since I don't see other shooters do same. I remember learning that from TGO as a kid when first started action/practical pistol.

Thanks in advance.

[Sarge]

Legal. Like you said, different. But legal as long as the criteria of 8.1 is met.

[flack jacket]

Solid! Thx

[EEH]

why not just use two mags,use one for barney,drop in front pocket insert full mag,holster and take mag out of pocket insert one bullet put in mag pouch -,,,ready

But if thats your way have at it

bad spelling

Edited February 18, 2011 by EEH

[Dwight Springthorpe]

why not just use two mags,use one for barney,drop in front pocket insert full mag,holster and take mag out of pocket insert one bullet put in mag pouch -,,,ready

But if thats your way have at it

bad spelling

Just one thought about "drop in the front pocket". If you do that and are shooting production or single stack, you have an illegal position for a magazine and a trip to the wild side of Open division. I do this same procedure, but I put my extra mag in my back pocket.

[Skydiver]

why not just use two mags,use one for barney,drop in front pocket insert full mag,holster and take mag out of pocket insert one bullet put in mag pouch -,,,ready

But if thats your way have at it

bad spelling

Just one thought about "drop in the front pocket". If you do that and are shooting production or single stack, you have an illegal position for a magazine and a trip to the wild side of Open division. I do this same procedure, but I put my extra mag in my back pocket.

That shouldn't move a production or single stack shooter to open because the rule 5.2.4 says "after the start signal":

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

[Nik Habicht]

That shouldn't move a production or single stack shooter to open because the rule 5.2.4 says "after the start signal":

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

5.2.4. isn't the applicable rule though.....

Section 6.2.5 covers the move to open. Note the "during the course of fire" language. Now, I'm not moving someone to Open for loading from a front pocket prior to the start signal, but I'd have to if the competitor placed a loaded mag back in his front pocket, or on an unloaded gun start, if the competitor loaded from his front pocket....

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.

[EEH]

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

[Sarge]

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

Good to go.

[Skydiver]

Nik, I sort of agree about the unloaded gun start. The bump to open shouldn't be due to stashing the mag in the front pocket, but when the shooter "retrieve(s) and use(s)" that magazine from the front pocket later in the stage.

As for the "if the competitor placed a loaded mag back in his front pocket", I disagree. If a production shooter unloads and shows clear, and puts that magazine into front pocket before "Range is Clear" is declared, then they get bumped to open? When did they "retrieve and use" that mag from an illegal location?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

If the point was that the magazine was ever put in an illegal location at any point in the game (after the start signal), then I remember a few unloaded start stages here where some shooters ran with mags in their mouths, under their armpits, or simply in their hands. Since mouths, armpits, and hands aren't retention devices, and aren't at waist level, would these also cause a bump to open?

[ima45dv8]

Nik, I sort of agree about the unloaded gun start. The bump to open shouldn't be due to stashing the mag in the front pocket, but when the shooter "retrieve(s) and use(s)" that magazine from the front pocket later in the stage.

As for the "if the competitor placed a loaded mag back in his front pocket", I disagree. If a production shooter unloads and shows clear, and puts that magazine into front pocket before "Range is Clear" is declared, then they get bumped to open? When did they "retrieve and use" that mag from an illegal location?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

If the point was that the magazine was ever put in an illegal location at any point in the game (after the start signal), then I remember a few unloaded start stages here where some shooters ran with mags in their mouths, under their armpits, or simply in their hands. Since mouths, armpits, and hands aren't retention devices, and aren't at waist level, would these also cause a bump to open?

John Amidon (DNROI) is responsible for issuing Clarifications and Rulings, the latter of which must be approved by the BoD as I understand the process. The difference is said to be that Rulings are issued for situations where a genuine ambiguity exists. Clarifications are just that – to clear up misunderstandings of rules that are deemed to be clearly written but often misunderstood/misinterpreted. Clarifications often appear in the "Inside NROI" column in Front Sight magazine.

This issue was covered in the current edition (Jan/Feb 2011, Vol. 28, No. 1).

+++++++++++++++++++

QUESTION: "Mags In Front Pockets = Open Division?"

Is it legal for someone shooting in the USPSA Single Stack division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants?

Does carrying magazines in that manner require that they be moved to Open Division?

Please cite the applicable USPSA rules."

ANSWER: "Unfortunately, it does.

Appendix D5 item 12 states "yes" to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shows that restriction, and 6.2.5.1 states that if they do not satisfy the requirements of the division entered at any time, they move to Open.

However, there is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or a pocket behind the hip bone."

+++++++++++++++++++

This would equally apply to any division where the same equipment restrictions exist.

[Skydiver]

@ima45dv8, thanks for pointing that out! I missed that because I became fixated with the velcro/belt clarification in the same issue.

So bump to open for the mag in the front pocket is any time in the course of fire for production and single stack shooters, not just after the start signal, as I understand that clarification.

Does that mean that open, limited, and revolver shooters who pull their first mag/moonclip out of their shirt pocket at make ready also get bumped to open since it's not at waist level? For that matter, coming to the line with a magazine in hand since I doubt that the hand is a classed as a retention device?

Edited February 19, 2011 by Skydiver

[JAFO]

I think you're reading too much into it. He said "during the course of fire", I take that as after the start signal. There's absolutely no competitive advantage to having a mag/moonclip in an illegal position prior to the buzzer for the purpose of Make Ready. I would also not bump someone who, during ULSC, puts the ejected magazine in their front pocket. If they suddenly decide that they missed a target and retrieved the mag from there and proceeded to load and engage a target, different story.

Edited February 19, 2011 by JAFO

[Nik Habicht]

So bump to open for the mag in the front pocket is any time in the course of fire for production and single stack shooters, not just after the start signal, as I understand that clarification.

Essentially that's true. I can't think of any ROs who would move the shooter to open, for pulling their make ready mag out of their front pocket on "Make Ready" for a loaded gun start -- though reading the rule in a strict constructionist approach dictates that.

In reality most range officials care about two things -- safety and competitive equity. Neither one of those is affected on a loaded gun start....

Does that mean that open, limited, and revolver shooters who pull their first mag/moonclip out of their shirt pocket at make ready also get bumped to open since it's not at waist level? For that matter, coming to the line with a magazine in hand since I doubt that the hand is a classed as a retention device?

NROI is teaching that the "preference" is for folks to use mag pouches at the waist; but that they may turn to pockets, if needed. Pouches are fastest, so virtually everyone uses them; allowing pockets allows newer competitors (who may not own or have brought enough gear) to play, as well as dealing with some of the other eventualities....

Sky,

have you taken an RO class yet? If not, or if you haven't taken one recently, I'd encourage you to go, if that's possible....

[Skydiver]

I actually like to play devil's advocate and dig at interpretations while on the forums. As mentioned by somebody else, the forums provides the equivalent of "dry fire" for RO'ing. Learning by seeing what the edges of the envelope are.

At the range, though, I take the common sense approach taught in the RO classes where our job is to "to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior."

I'm sorry if my posts come across as confrontational. My apologies to everybody.

[Lewiston]

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

Good to go.

I have to agree with Sarge on this one.

The key phrase within rule 5.2.4 that I feel is being overlooked is "retrieve and use" indicating action must be taken on the part of the competitor for the following consequences to apply . If a barney round is chambered and the loaded mag is placed within the front pocket, in my interpretation, two outcomes can occur. 1. The competitor, if during the COF, does not use that mag once placed within the front pocket, no harm no foul. 2. The competitor, if during the COF, "retrieves and uses" that magazine the consequences resulting from that action come into play as outlined in the remainder of that rule.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Lewiston

[Lewiston]

Repeat

Edited February 19, 2011 by Lewiston

[Nik Habicht]

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

not saying to use it after beeeep,just a place to put it then top it off and put in mag pouch==

Good to go.

I have to agree with Sarge on this one.

The key phrase within rule 5.2.4 that I feel is being overlooked is "retrieve and use" indicating action must be taken on the part of the competitor for the following consequences to apply . If a barney round is chambered and the loaded mag is placed within the front pocket, in my interpretation, two outcomes can occur. 1. The competitor, if during the COF, does not use that mag once placed within the front pocket, no harm no foul. 2. The competitor, if during the COF, "retrieves and uses" that magazine the consequences resulting from that action come into play as outlined in the remainder of that rule.

I'm not over looking it. Here's the relevant sentence from 5.2.4:

Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

There are two distinct clauses in that rule -- carrying magazines in AND retrieving/using magazines from apparel pockets -- both of which need to comply with division requirements....

How is this different from a production division competitor who loads 11 rounds in his first mag on an unloaded gun start, loads the gun with it, fires nine rounds, reloads, and is moved to open when the RO notices the remaining round in the magazine? (Real life situation -- a friend of mine finished the area match competing in open.) Was that extra round an advantage? It doesn't matter, it's mere presence made the competitor non-compliant with division requirements, and triggered the move to Open under 6.2.5.1.

[Lewiston]

You are correct. My interpretation was incorrect. At today's match we had a gentleman that has RO'd numerous national events who I posed this question. He confirmed your statement that the presence of a loaded mag in the front pocket made the competitor non-compliant to divisions with placement requirements.

I love this forum!

Edited February 20, 2011 by Lewiston

[Skydiver]

I followed up with John Amidon on this and asked same follow up questions about the Front Sight clarification. Below is the thread with his opinions:

Me:

My question is: "If a production or single shooter walks up to the line with a magazine in the front pocket, then are they moved to open the second the RO says 'Make Ready'? Are they bumped to open even if they never use/access that magazine in the front pocket during the course of fire? (e.g.Just the fact that they have it there moves them to Open.)"

Basically I'm trying to discern where the phrase "during thecourse of fire, after the start signal" in 5.2.4 applies, or if the "during the course of fire" in 6.2.5.1 superseeds 5.2.4.

JA:

During the COF is after the make ready command , however, the stipulation in 5.2.4 "after the start signal" is there for those who want to have a strip mag in their pocket to charge their weapon then toss it on the ground or whatever. The foremost position of equipment for the divisions with restrictions is shown in Appendix E3, so having a mag in your pocket but not using it, is putting you at risk for something that can be corrected simply by if you're not going to use it, why is it there in the first place? An RO could call it and be within the rules.

Me:

So just to make sure I understand correctly the following won't move a shooter to open:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters.

2. At "Make Ready", an Open,Limited, Revolver shooter pulls out their first magazine/speed loader from a shirt breast pocket, loads, and holsters.

But these will:

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF.

4. At unload and show clear, a Production or Single Stack shooter places the magazine they just ejected from the gun into their front pocket.

I'm trying to understand how the"retrieve and use them without penalty" fits in if they never retrieved and use the magazine after the start signal from an illegal location.

JA:

1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.

2. At "Make Ready", an Open, Limited, Revolver shooter pulls out their first magazine/speed loader from a shirt breast pocket, loads, and holsters. These division can have them anywhere, there is no restrictions as to location of equipment as in Production and single stack.

But these will:

3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.

4. At unload and show clear, a Production or Single Stack shooter places the magazine they just ejected from the gun into their front pocket. The command "Range is clear" ends the COF, so unload and show clear is still during the COF and falls into the same possibility of having the equipment in the wrong place.

Your questions and concerns are valid, the best way until there is arule change (not that there will be), is for the two divisions, Production and Single Stack, is not to have equipment forward of the hip bone, whether you use it or not.

[EEH]

OK,so if you shoot ss,or prod.just cut off the front pockets,problem solved--

but really looks like I was reading the rule wrong also..mag in front pocket--bad--

[aztecdriver]

One little nit, because the 11- round production mags were mentioned.

Some production competitors carry an 11 round charge round in the back of their belt or in their rear pocket so they don't have to barney up - after all, it fits and somewhat simplifies things.

I watched a competitor once shooting 09-04, virginia count classifier that requires 8 rounds, 2 ea. on 4 targets reach for his charge mag, realize he only needed 10 rounds and grab the first reload mag, load up and shoot the classifier. I guess he didn't want to reset the 11 round mag or something. Now - I intuitively knew what he had done from shooting with him - but technically - welcome to open. He started the COF with a non-compliant magazine on his person.

This is one of the reasons why ALL of my 6 production mags on my belt are 10 rounds, I barney off the 5th mag, and load the 6th. If I've shot 59 rounds and need that 60th, I've already sufficiently screwed up the stage. I never have to worry about unloaded or loaded starts or grabbing the wrong mag. It also allows me to keep the same, consistent make ready routine whether I'm shooting production, limited, lim-10 or singlestack.

[JAFO]

4. At unload and show clear, a Production or Single Stack shooter places the magazine they just ejected from the gun into their front pocket. The command "Range is clear" ends the COF, so unload and show clear is still during the COF and falls into the same possibility of having the equipment in the wrong place.

I realize this one is technically illegal per the rules, but would anyone ever actually bump a shooter for this?

I noticed he stated "...falls into the same possibility of having the equipment in the wrong place..." (emphasis mine), so I'm guessing RO's have some leeway not to be that strict.

[sperman]

I guess I've technically been in violation of the rules a few times. I always carry my charge mag in the small front pocket on my pants. If I go to an unloaded start classifier, it usually only requires 1 or 2 mags, so I leave that mag in my front pocket and grab one off my belt. I would never reach for that mag during a course of fire (it would take about 10 seconds to get it out of the pocket) but just having it there could bump me to open.

[flack jacket]

Great replies guys! My question was geared what I do with the pistol. Holster or hold it out pointed down range during "make ready".

I believe my rule selection may have caused the thread to drift a bit. Good information none the less...