New SSR power factor

[Flexmoney]

Well...except you only have 6 rounds. So, only enough ammo for 1 additional paper target anyway in most situations. Looks like double the popper, take a target, and wait...

[Bones]

Early in the last century, the US Army's Standard Service Round, the 38 Long Colt, was dropped because it was widely determined to be ineffective during a campaign in the Philippines.

The US Army's standard side arm at the time was a double action Colt revolver (Model 1892 with a 6" barrel) that launched a 158 grain (or 150 grain depending on who's data you believe) 38 caliber lead RN heeled bullet at 763 fps. That equates to 114450 - 120554 PF. It was more powerful, however, than the 38 Short Colt, which generated significantly less power because of the 130 gr RN bullet it launched at the same muzzle velocity (760 fps). That equates to about 100,000 PF.

Meanwhile, in response to the documented ineffectiveness of the 38 Long Colt combination, S&W introduced the 38 S&W Special cartridge and Military and Police Revolver in 1902. This combination increased the chamber pressure and resulting velocity of a new 158 grain RN bullet by about 10% (equating to 125,895 - 132945 PF). Accounting for velocity losses in barrel lengths, that would bring us to 120800 fps out of a 4" (vs a 5 1/2" or 6") revolver. These data do not take into account propellant advances (i.e. much higher energy densities) in the last century. The 1902 vintage 38 S&W Special cartridge was originally developed for use with black powder propellant.

We have come nearly full circle in 109 years.

What would George Santayana say?

Craig

[Duane Thomas]

Who is George Santayana? And why would I care what he had to say at an IDPA match? Is he a really good shooter?

[Cd662]

Craig, I think every time I tell people I have history degrees I have to hear that quote. Must it follow me forever? I still plan on running the +P rounds for training purposes.

[John Z Sr]

Early in the last century, the US Army's Standard Service Round, the 38 Long Colt, was dropped because it was widely determined to be ineffective during a campaign in the Philippines.

The US Army's standard side arm at the time was a double action Colt revolver (Model 1892 with a 6" barrel) that launched a 158 grain (or 150 grain depending on who's data you believe) 38 caliber lead RN heeled bullet at 763 fps. That equates to 114450 - 120554 PF. It was more powerful, however, than the 38 Short Colt, which generated significantly less power because of the 130 gr RN bullet it launched at the same muzzle velocity (760 fps). That equates to about 100,000 PF.

Meanwhile, in response to the documented ineffectiveness of the 38 Long Colt combination, S&W introduced the 38 S&W Special cartridge and Military and Police Revolver in 1902. This combination increased the chamber pressure and resulting velocity of a new 158 grain RN bullet by about 10% (equating to 125,895 - 132945 PF). Accounting for velocity losses in barrel lengths, that would bring us to 120800 fps out of a 4" (vs a 5 1/2" or 6") revolver. These data do not take into account propellant advances (i.e. much higher energy densities) in the last century. The 1902 vintage 38 S&W Special cartridge was originally developed for use with black powder propellant.

We have come nearly full circle in 109 years.

Master revo shooter AND real smart, that's why Bones is my hero

What would George Santayana say?

Craig

[Bones]

Who is George Santayana? And why would I care what he had to say at an IDPA match? Is he a really good shooter?

Good Point Duane.

I'm probably the only one who appreciates the irony of implementing a sub-38 Long Colt PF for a significantly more powerful cartridge in a shooting game that prohibits the former cartridge because it requires ""service type" ammunition, not light target ammunition" ".

If he were still with us, I thought George might have too. Revolvers were quite popular in his time.

Craig

[Ted Murphy]

I have some Philadelphia Police issue .38 Special 158gr RN loads from back in the day. This weekend I will chrono some. I wonder what PF they are. I bet sub 125 pf.

Ted

[TxD]

Well...except you only have 6 rounds. So, only enough ammo for 1 additional paper target anyway in most situations. Looks like double the popper, take a target, and wait...

Works in thoery, in a match not so much.

Most of the time these arrays are shot from barracade which mens slicing the pie and

which dictates the target order.

[Flexmoney]

Well...except you only have 6 rounds. So, only enough ammo for 1 additional paper target anyway in most situations. Looks like double the popper, take a target, and wait...

Works in thoery, in a match not so much.

Most of the time these arrays are shot from barracade which mens slicing the pie and

which dictates the target order.

My point was...there is not enough ammo in the gun to "shoot a bunch of other stuff" while waiting on the popper to activate the mover.

[GOF]

It does sorta suck to find that you just shot your six rounds and NOW the mover or drop turner is activating. I'm not sure even JM could make a reload fast enough to get to it.

GOF

[Forrest Halley]

Assuming the popper was the opening shot on the cylinder, you would most likely only shoot another target or two rounds before having to engage the activated disappearing prop. To do otherwise is just poor planning/execution....not enough rounds on the activated target. Of course if it doesn't disappear a lot more can be accomplished.

Exercise:

1 Watch youtube videos of whatever moving target you are trying to game.

2 Clock the activation time and exposure time. If you really feel the 105's would lay it down slower add a .5 sec.

3 Set a timer to a par of the combined times.

4 Try and reload the gun and get two shots off in the interim.

You'll probably find out you're not able to do it. There is an argument for the fact that it's faster to reload after the 6th shot than try and do a buzzer to buzzer reload drill, but if you can do it this way you'll definitely be able to do it in a match. Looks good on paper but doesn't work in reality for most people.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Forrest Halley

[Flexmoney]

Assuming the popper was the opening shot on the cylinder, you would most likely only shoot another target or two rounds before having to engage the activated disappearing prop. To do otherwise is just poor planning/execution....

You'll probably find out you're not able to do it.

Like this?

http://video.google....07538736181406#

(just an example)

[Steve Koski]

Sweet run Flex!

Edited January 24, 2011 by Steve Koski

[Bill Nesbitt]

[quote name='Flexmoney' timestamp='1295888118' post='1375142'

My point was...there is not enough ammo in the gun to "shoot a bunch of other stuff" while waiting on the popper to activate the mover.

Shooting one stationary target while waiting for a mover to activate IS "shooting a bunch of other stuff" for a Revolver shooter.

Shooting a Revolver takes a lot of planning and timing to succeed. The long trigger pull means you have to time the shot better for the mover.

I remember a stage at the Carolina Cup. Directly in front of you were 2 poppers that each activated one of the drop turners that were almost 90 degrees to your left and right. How would you shoot it if you only have 6 rounds?

[steel1212]

r a stage at the Carolina Cup. Directly in front of you were 2 poppers that each activated one of the drop turners that were almost 90 degrees to your left and right. How would you shoot it if you only have 6 rounds?

I guess if your really fast right popper, left popper, right DT, left DT, or at least I would try unless I saw that they where super fast activating and dropping.

[Forrest Halley]

Assuming the popper was the opening shot on the cylinder, you would most likely only shoot another target or two rounds before having to engage the activated disappearing prop. To do otherwise is just poor planning/execution....

You'll probably find out you're not able to do it.

Like this?

http://video.google....07538736181406#

(just an example)

Yeah... so you're awesome and that's not a revo. Sweet run though ! I was doing that the other day too and then I woke up....

[CRDB]

New power factor load, 158g midatlantic bullet, fed primer and 2.7g of Clays = 109pf

Classifier times came down just a little.

Edited February 2, 2011 by CRDB

[John Z Sr]

New power factor load, 158g midatlantic bullet, fed primer and 2.7g of Clays = 109pf

Classifier times came down just a little.

GAMER !!!!!!!!

[Gregg K]

Well I have turned my powder measure a full turn to the left and still come up with 120. I guess I'll have to consult with the cowboy shooters to see what they use for filler on these new spitball loads. There is way too much case volume for these loads.

Maybe we can get S&W to build a .38 K frame with a Ti cylinder and mark the barrel .38 Colt so that we can choose 38 Long or Short Colt. That would be gaming!

[John Z Sr]

You got it Gregg, I trim my brass to .955" and use a 198 gr lrn that I cast over 2.7 grs of Clays. Makes minor in my 4" for USPSA and I declare minor. Very accurate and soft load, but not for IDPA, even though it makes a real power factor, you can't use it, but you can use little sissy loads with regular .38 brass and risk not even seeing the powder in the case. My load is great for Zombie shootin' though !!

Edited February 3, 2011 by John Z Sr

[Ted Murphy]

Phila PD ammo was 120pf. It was pointed out to me that ammo that old gets hotter from the powder aging. Not sure myself.

S&B wadcutters were 95pf.

John, when you trim the brass, howdy you do it?

[Forrest Halley]

Well I have turned my powder measure a full turn to the left and still come up with 120. I guess I'll have to consult with the cowboy shooters to see what they use for filler on these new spitball loads. There is way too much case volume for these loads.

Maybe we can get S&W to build a .38 K frame with a Ti cylinder and mark the barrel .38 Colt so that we can choose 38 Long or Short Colt. That would be gaming!

Now you're talking let's see a real whizbang gun like that and how about a scandium Xframe in 38 short colt too? Idpa uspsa and Icore covered by the 38 short colt!

You got it Gregg, I trim my brass to .955" and use a 198 gr lrn that I cast over 2.7 grs of Clays. Makes minor in my 4" for USPSA and I declare minor. Very accurate and soft load, but not for IDPA, even though it makes a real power factor, you can't use it, but you can use little sissy loads with regular .38 brass and risk not even seeing the powder in the case. My load is great for Zombie shootin' though !!

You know John I wish you weren't such an underrated mad scientist of the revo...that way I could feel twice as good when I finally beat you!

[John Z Sr]

Phila PD ammo was 120pf. It was pointed out to me that ammo that old gets hotter from the powder aging. Not sure myself.

S&B wadcutters were 95pf.

John, when you trim the brass, howdy you do it?

Hey Ted,

I use a "Hornady" trimmer ('bout $60.00 from Midway) and then chamfer/debur on the RCBS case mate machine. I bought the power drill adapter for the trimmer, as your arm will fall off if you do a large batch at a time with the hand crank. I do about 100 or so at a time and then the fingers get sore from chamfer/debur. The brass ejects much better as it will clear the star even on my little K frame 66, and it seems to be a very efficient load based on the space and powder used. Hope that helps my friend

[John Z Sr]

Sorry Ted, my mistake, I trim to .930", they seem better than the .955" I originally posted

[John Z Sr]

Well I have turned my powder measure a full turn to the left and still come up with 120. I guess I'll have to consult with the cowboy shooters to see what they use for filler on these new spitball loads. There is way too much case volume for these loads.

Maybe we can get S&W to build a .38 K frame with a Ti cylinder and mark the barrel .38 Colt so that we can choose 38 Long or Short Colt. That would be gaming!

Now you're talking let's see a real whizbang gun like that and how about a scandium Xframe in 38 short colt too? Idpa uspsa and Icore covered by the 38 short colt!

You got it Gregg, I trim my brass to .955" and use a 198 gr lrn that I cast over 2.7 grs of Clays. Makes minor in my 4" for USPSA and I declare minor. Very accurate and soft load, but not for IDPA, even though it makes a real power factor, you can't use it, but you can use little sissy loads with regular .38 brass and risk not even seeing the powder in the case. My load is great for Zombie shootin' though !!

You know John I wish you weren't such an underrated mad scientist of the revo...that way I could feel twice as good when I finally beat you!

Underrating is overrated, and yes you will beat me, just have some respect for your elders and be nice when you do, grab me my cane and help me back to the home, you rotten young buck with fast reflexes and good eyes!!!