2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[Jack T]

USPSA has not done very well with the "Multi-gun" format at the Nationals since the first attempt at Reno. Not a jab at USPSA, just the way it has been. Probably need to go back to the single gun/stage format (3-Gun). Too many dynamics to plan for at the upper level of Multi-gun competition without a dedicated staff. Really takes some dedicated/knowledgeable 3 gunners to put on this level of a match. The Area Multi-gun matches are better than most nationals have been.

Personally, I would rather shoot stages which are set up specifically for each gun, transitioning with multiple guns doesn't really excite me since they are so watered down and not very practical. Easier to design a quality stage within the limits of most ranges used by USPSA. Let the independent promoters (Outlaw Matches) handle the Multi-gun format as they generally have ranges which are more open and capable of these events and the personnel to run the match.

Shot some really good USPSA 3-Gun Nationals when they were up at Barry quite a few years ago.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Jack T

[outerlimits]

I'll.bite my tongue but i have been around a bit more than you. And yes, i had to re-shoot 5 of 12 stages. Live with the rule set, dude

[Religious Shooter]

Hell. If you had five reshoots alone then the 15-20 reshoots that my squad had is close to the norm.

15 x 15 squads = 225

20 x 15 squads = 300

So I'd estimate 225 to 300+ reshoots for the match for REF.

Then add on the two or so squads that had to reshoot stage 11.

If you tallied the # of reshoots in SMM3G in the past 10 years I don't think you even approach the above.

The rules/procedure for REF needs to be changed.

[Stlhead]

Why is this dead equine being beaten? I had more re-shoots in this single match than I have had in the last 4 years of matches. Whooptee f'ing doo. It may suck, but them is the rules. No one was forced to shoot the match and the rules are not new. If you want different rules call or write your area director, call ANY area director, don't waste your time bitching on the internet. If you don't like the rules of the match, don't sign up for it.

In my feeble opinion they did a pretty good job with this match considering what they had to work with and I applaud the effort. I will continue to try and support USPSA's efforts to do right by multi-gun if I can. There may be a great number of things that I would prefer to be handled differently, but at least there are people at USPSA trying to make a good go of it (with the exception of my area director, he is sort of a goof bag, and I think he may be a closet IDPA guy).

Congratulations to all of the shooters, and a great thanks to all of those who worked the match. Additional thanks to all the fine sponsors who help finance the matches we shoot. And a special thank you to all of the shooters who had the unfortunate luck to be squadded with team High Life at this match. We appreciate your patience with us "special" shooters, we will try and make it up to you wonderful people in the future and hope to see you all again in the spring!

Be happy.

[MustangGreg66]

You all came to shoot right? re-shoots = more shooting

I had two. Not complaining. I did better on one and trashed the other. I was actually more worried about running out of ammo. Thankfully I didn't have more reshoots or I would have ran out. I'll bring more ammo next year for sure.

[Charles Bond]

USPSA has not done very well with the "Multi-gun" format at the Nationals since the first attempt at Reno. Not a jab at USPSA, just the way it has been. Probably need to go back to the single gun/stage format (3-Gun). Too many dynamics to plan for at the upper level of Multi-gun competition without a dedicated staff. Really takes some dedicated/knowledgeable 3 gunners to put on this level of a match. The Area Multi-gun matches are better than most nationals have been.

Personally, I would rather shoot stages which are set up specifically for each gun, transitioning with multiple guns doesn't really excite me since they are so watered down and not very practical. Easier to design a quality stage within the limits of most ranges used by USPSA. Let the independent promoters (Outlaw Matches) handle the Multi-gun format as they generally have ranges which are more open and capable of these events and the personnel to run the match.

Shot some really good USPSA 3-Gun Nationals when they were up at Barry quite a few years ago.

There is a lot of wisdom in this comment. Those who shoot the independent MG matches each year are mostly the same shooters who attend the USPSA MG Nationals and as these posts show, and most post match comments going back about 5 years show, USPSA has some challenges in holding MG matches. In other words, it seems we have the same group of post match comments each year following our USPSA natioans whereas the type of comments you see each year after the other major MG matches are very different.

[Jack T]

Why is this dead equine being beaten? I had more re-shoots in this single match than I have had in the last 4 years of matches. Whooptee f'ing doo. It may suck, but them is the rules. No one was forced to shoot the match and the rules are not new. If you want different rules call or write your area director, call ANY area director, don't waste your time bitching on the internet. If you don't like the rules of the match, don't sign up for it.

In my feeble opinion they did a pretty good job with this match considering what they had to work with and I applaud the effort. I will continue to try and support USPSA's efforts to do right by multi-gun if I can. There may be a great number of things that I would prefer to be handled differently, but at least there are people at USPSA trying to make a good go of it (with the exception of my area director, he is sort of a goof bag, and I think he may be a closet IDPA guy).

Congratulations to all of the shooters, and a great thanks to all of those who worked the match. Additional thanks to all the fine sponsors who help finance the matches we shoot. And a special thank you to all of the shooters who had the unfortunate luck to be squadded with team High Life at this match. We appreciate your patience with us "special" shooters, we will try and make it up to you wonderful people in the future and hope to see you all again in the spring!

Be happy.

Nothing personal here, but your comments mirror many peoples thoughts and attitude towards USPSA Multi-gun.

This is why the matches have not gotten better. If you pay $255.00, plus travel expenses, motel, ammunition, etc., you have quite an investment in a competition. Why expect and accept mediocrity from those responsible for putting on the match?

The match staff has a responsibility, once they accept a mans money to put on an exceptional event/match. Just because the staff and ROs worked hard does not make it OK.

That many re-shoots and DQs is a blatant failure of all those responsible for putting on this National Level event and the rules by which they abide.

Again, it is not how hard the staff worked, it ain't about them; it's about putting on a quality event for the shooters. Remember them? That's what it is about, it's about the SHOOTERS!!!

This BS from (some of) the ROs, we bust our butts, you should be happy with what you get is upside down. Seem to have forgotten what the sport is about. Needs to be reevaluated and revised.

Jack

Edited October 25, 2011 by Jack T

[Religious Shooter]

Why is this dead equine being beaten? I had more re-shoots in this single match than I have had in the last 4 years of matches. Whooptee f'ing doo. It may suck, but them is the rules. No one was forced to shoot the match and the rules are not new. If you want different rules call or write your area director, call ANY area director, don't waste your time bitching on the internet. If you don't like the rules of the match, don't sign up for it.

I guess you haven't noticed but my Area director is on this thread. By "bitching" on this thread it's the same thing as writing to my area director.

The tone of your post seems to be that I don't support USPSA. I've shot the last six MG Nationals out here on the West Coast --- Reno, LV, Oregon, Boulder, LV and LV. If that's not support and show of approval I don't know what is.

Rules can be changed.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Religious Shooter

[Jesse Tischauser]

I had 3 reshoots.

One was for the changes they made to the double flipper on stage 11.

One was because my awesome squad mates somehow knew ahead of time that I loaded a round into my shotgun tube backwards causing a death jam so the forgot to set the shotgun clays on the right side of stage 12.

The last was for a clay that fell off a stand before I got there on stage 10. All 3 reshoots erased time and penalties from my scores do

as much as I hate the extra time I enjoyed every reshoot I got this time.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[pjb45]

One of the essentials of project and event management is Lessons Learned. The key to repetitive activities improving is listening to the critiques by attendees. This is fundamental to improvement.

Getting defensive about 3Gun administration, stage props, ROing, etc. only leads to a continuing dis-functional 3Gun Nationals.

I suggest stop getting defensive, stop justifying the need for reshoots as more fun.

Let start looking at what needs improvement, put forth solid recommendations, then implement those improvements.

USPSA management needs to actually listen to the the members, not dictate to them. USPSA needs to facilitate forums to improvement of the National venues.

Perhaps 3 Gun rules need to written by 3 Gunners.

[Doug H.]

There are 3 different topics here:

1. The match was well designed and had a good mix of hoser, technical and difficult shots. I've attended all the MG nats since 2006 as a shooter or RO and this was the best of all.

2. Reshoots were a major problem, but I got lucky and didn't have a single one. A few of the props could have used better construction and would have been corrected ahead of time if the stages had been shot by the ROs. Every outlaw match I've ever ROed was shot by the ROs and the flaws corrected before the regular match started.

3. The rules need to be more aligned with outlaw type matches, the popularity of those matches is all the proof necessary. I know that this is being addressed and am looking forward to the changes, FREE OPEN NOW!

To all the match staff, good job! This was large difficult match to run and every shooter I talked to had a good time. ROs worked like dogs and deserve a ton of credit. Stats were on my phone each night before I finished dinner, incredible. Thanks to all the sponsors that keep us funded and give us goodies at the end of the party.

I'll be back next year!

Doug

[busyhawk]

I for one would RO if and only if we could shoot the match for score prior to the real match. I am a shooter first but am willing to work the match to help pay for my habit. I tried to RO this year but USPSA's compensation does not cover enough...I would have to pay out of pocket to RO a match I can't shoot...bullsh!t!!!!

I have RO/ed many matches over the last couple of years and as an RO I am happy with the following package/compensation:

1. Get to shoot the match for score for free

2. "At least" a free lunch for all days working and all the water I want:-)

3. Room paid for (at least 50% of what it cost) all days working/required to be there (3 day match 3 days/nights hotel)

ROs shooting the match prior to the main match just makes sense...I don't know of any large Multi-Gun match out there that doesn't let the ROs shoot other than USPSA Multi-Gun Nats and Area 1 Multi-Gun 2011. Great way to proof the stage for sure. Most match directors (I co-Match Direct the North West MultiGun Challenge) like the ROs to shoot to see where the backup/s is/are going to occur and can make changes if needed like take targets out or whatever to make it flow better and or address gamer and safety issues. I am no expert for sure but do have some common sense.

Just my .02 but I do love the sport and did shoot the last 2 USPSA Multi-Gun Nats and with what I have read/heard this year is the best so far. Every year is better. I would have shot this year but funds are a little low

Multi-Gun and USPSA supporter,

RLTW,

Scott

[Big Bore]

If you happened to come across a Canon digital camera in a black nylon case lying in the dirt it may have fell out of the truck somewhere between stage 6-ish and the vendor tent on Sunday, PM me and I'll have you send it to me. The only pictures on it were some shots of a job site I visited on my way to the match.

Thanks, Scott

[larry weeks]

I RO'd on Stage 6 and, once we figured out that we had to reset the first clamshell ourselves and feel the latch plate pull if the cable wasn't right, dig the ground out around the front half of it as the ground settled, target sank, whatever, we wen't pretty well. As we sorted that out we stopped probably half a dozen shooters when the blocker didn't pop up. As far as real, complete reshoots, there were only about half a dozen(?). One poor guy shot three times, all because of unset steel, or not pasted targets. We started walking the stage after each shooter for that squad to make sure everything was pasted and reset. Even tho' we, Jim Meade (Utah), Betty Wilson(Mississippi) and I(Iowa), helped build Stage 6, and worked on all of them, we didn't anticipate the problem with the cable loop at the popper. Only had one DQ for an AD. As far as ROs shooting it, it would add two days to the process - I don't want to shoot 12 stages in one day! The setup crew worked 8-5/6/7 from Sat-Wed, plus Thursday from 6:30 until early afternoon just to get it built. We used every wall USPSA had, many belonging to the Vegas USPSA club, even built a couple of new ones and just about every mover, swinger, flipper, flopper, whatever, on the grounds. I think Carl cleaned out all the 2x2s at Home Depot, two days in a row. It took over 600 big nails just for the fault lines! We pre-drilled most of the holes that hard bleeping ground using masonary bits for the even-bigger spikes that held the walls, target stands, braces, etc. The local guys were a huge help and it wouldn't have happened without them, they knew where all the secret stashes of "stuff" were. It wasn't all locals tho' - at least 4-6 of the 14 or so were from out of state, and possibly more. Pete R, and Mike Voight designed a bunch of neat stages. Pete said one of his goals was to make people shoot from positions they wouldn't have practiced. Heard lots of good things and the vast majority of shooters were in a good mood and willing to work resetting, etc. I walked at least 7.5 miles chasing shooters and am thankful to be back in the office so I can rest! Sorry to ramble. Oh yeah, Mike said they're working on a consolidated set of Multi-Gun rules so we won't have multiple books to look at.

[Jesse Tischauser]

To all the match staff, good job! This was large difficult match to run and every shooter I talked to had a good time. ROs worked like dogs and deserve a ton of credit. Stats were on my phone each night before I finished dinner, incredible. Thanks to all the sponsors that keep us funded and give us goodies at the end of the party.

I'll be back next year!

[Blockhead]

If you happened to come across a Canon digital camera in a black nylon case lying in the dirt it may have fell out of the truck somewhere between stage 6-ish and the vendor tent on Sunday, PM me and I'll have you send it to me. The only pictures on it were some shots of a job site I visited on my way to the match.

Thanks, Scott

Hey Scott,

I have the box with all the Lost-N-Found stuff that was turned in. Unfortunately, there is no camera. We'll keep our eyes peeled and let you know if it turns up.

Regards,

[Schutzenmeister]

[...] I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. [...]

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). [...]

Thanks Chuck, for an accurate account. When the RO described what he witnessed to the CRO (in some detail) it became apparent to the CRO that no DQ'able offense had actually occured ... per the rules. Hence, the shooter was never actually DQ'd and was thus granted a reshoot as the RO had stopped him.

22 DQ's out of 188 competitors is an 11.7% DQ rate. That would be like having 92 DQ's at Handgun Nationals which had 787 Competitors. Will be interesting to hear comments from attendees as to what the problem seemed to be.

That is an very soft comment. I was not there but that rate of DQ is over twice what it should be.

OK Charles ... What SHOULD the DQ rate be?

Sorry old friend, but the rate is what it is. In this case, a significant portion (though clearly not all of it) can be attributed to folks whith little or no experience in USPSA shooting and the safety rules therein. If one is going to play the game at the national championship level ... ANY game ... then they should take the time and trouble to familiarize themselves with the rules specific to THAT game. As has been clearly noted, USPSA matches are NOT 3 Gun Nation (or other) matches.

While not in a safe area, taking off the gunbelt with a gun still in the holster is a definite DQ in USPSA.

You also can't bag/unbag your long guns at the car.

These two rules should have gotten our entire squad DQ'd.

The BOD talked about this shortly before I left. IMO if an unloaded gun is in a holster it is safe and if it is in a bag it is safe and that is true whether it is on a belt on a shooter or otherwise. Three gun is a different animal. Constanting running to the safe area to bag and unbag weapons is only going to work if you have an ample safe area at each and every stage. I have never seen anyone bag and unbag a rifle or shotgun inside a safe area.

Nevertheless, Charles, the current NROI intrepretation is that such an action is in violation of 10.5.1. And I HAVE seen numerous folks bagging and unbaggin in the safe areas ... as recently as a couple of days ago!

I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. [...]

Chuck ... I've been working the Nationals for several years now. While on occasion the ROs have been allowed to shoot an "RO Match,"* I do not recall in the last 10-15 years any ROs being allowed to shoot the entire match for score.

(*i.e., Shoot certain "problem" stages to work the bugs out of them, but not for "main-match" credit.)

[Blockhead]

I for one would RO if and only if we could shoot the match for score prior to the real match.

Hey Scott,

You're definately one of my favorite MG RO's (for whatever that might be worth) . We've got your number and will keep you posted.

Best Regards,

[Blockhead]

One of the essentials of project and event management is Lessons Learned. The key to repetitive activities improving is listening to the critiques by attendees. This is fundamental to improvement.

You're absolutely correct on that. I can assure you the people responsible for this match are paying close attention to all the feedback they're getting through the forum as well as from direct contact with individual shooters & staff.

Regards,

[Doug H.]

I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. [...]

Chuck ... I've been working the Nationals for several years now. While on occasion the ROs have been allowed to shoot an "RO Match,"* I do not recall in the last 10-15 years any ROs being allowed to shoot the entire match for score.

(*i.e., Shoot certain "problem" stages to work the bugs out of them, but not for "main-match" credit.)

I ROed the 2006 MG Nats in Albany, Oregon and we (the ROs) shot the whole match, for score, in 2 days. As several people have said, you give the ROs a free match entry, feed them lunch and house them the days they work plus the generous $325 for travel and you will get more ROs with 3 gun experience to work.

Doug

[MarkCO]

Two plane rides today gave me some more time to think and reflect w.r.t. reshoots. I've had 4 in 15 major matches, 2 for weather, 1 for REF and 1 because the stage was changed. In every case, I made improvements to my original score, improvments that, for the most part came from the benefit of having shot the stage, or some portion thereof. Almost every reshoot I have witnessed in MG/3G have resulted in better scores. Not so with pistol stages. While it is certainly not the fault of the competitors who got reshoots, it does point out a significant difference between pistol and MG stages and illustrates the fact that something needs to be done to address the variety of reasons that reshoots occurred at this match. The reshoots are unfair to the competitors and impact the final standings.

ROs shooting (who BTW never shoot as well as they would have in the main match) does work the stages bugs out. Flying and flipping clays are another issue w.r.t. reshoots that the BOD should address. I also think ROs working stages with flying and flipping clays should have to post their vison exam score on the stage breifing as well (kidding, kind of).

[LChico]

One of the essentials of project and event management is Lessons Learned. The key to repetitive activities improving is listening to the critiques by attendees. This is fundamental to improvement.

Getting defensive about 3Gun administration, stage props, ROing, etc. only leads to a continuing dis-functional 3Gun Nationals.

I suggest stop getting defensive, stop justifying the need for reshoots as more fun.

Let start looking at what needs improvement, put forth solid recommendations, then implement those improvements.

USPSA management needs to actually listen to the the members, not dictate to them. USPSA needs to facilitate forums to improvement of the National venues.

Perhaps 3 Gun rules need to written by 3 Gunners.

The "justification" and "defensiveness" you want stopped is not coming from Match Administrative staff or USPSA Management. It is coming from shooters who paid to shoot the match or staff who volunteered to work it. They are entitled to voice an opinion (as are you).

"USPSA management needs to actually listen to the the members, not dictate to them." I will assume you missed Michael Voigt's opening remarks at the awards ceremony - when he asked competitors and staff to contact Area Directors about proposed revisions for MG Rules. A major re-write is in the works by the USPSA BOD Multigun Committee.

"Perhaps 3 Gun rules need to written by 3 Gunners." I am the only person on the USPSA Multigun committee who does not actually shoot 3 gun (Michael Voigt, Phil Strader, Chuck Anderson & Chris Endersby all shoot 3 gun frequently). I am there because of all the work I have done in match administration at non-USPSA multi-gun, and because I communicate frequently with a large group of 3 gunners.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

USPSA BOD Area 6

[Big Bore]

If you happened to come across a Canon digital camera in a black nylon case lying in the dirt it may have fell out of the truck somewhere between stage 6-ish and the vendor tent on Sunday, PM me and I'll have you send it to me. The only pictures on it were some shots of a job site I visited on my way to the match.

Thanks, Scott

Hey Scott,

I have the box with all the Lost-N-Found stuff that was turned in. Unfortunately, there is no camera. We'll keep our eyes peeled and let you know if it turns up.

Regards,

Thanks.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is some video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3knJjaeSYfI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

After watching the shooting again I gotta say again that the stages really we're a lot of fun.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Great points are being put out on this thread!

Many of the things I have read can be corrected for future events...I am sure of this!

I think that letting the RO's shoot the match the day before is a great idea, and would definitely help some of the match equipment failures in the future. (The BOD just needs to figure-out what is fair compensation to attract shooters/RO's to come out and do so).

Some of your comments in regards to the actual dump barrel designs, and also WHERE they are placed in the stage to prevent 180-issues, is also good information.

The fact that there were some DQ issues, range equipment failures, and also "inconsistency" in some of the range rules, are also being heard.

Some of y'all here know me. I am on the Richmond (California) MG committee for our club, and am also the MD for all the MG matches we have at our club. (We are one of the Nor Cal shooting clubs). And I personally have my ear to the ground, and will be reconsidering some of the things we will do at our club, based on the feedback I have heard here on this forum.

I think if the USPSA BOD can seperate the wheat from the chaff of this thread (the non-constructive/emotional responses, verses specific points that cover the pro's and con's of doing certain things), I am sure they will be considered, and action will be taken to make things better.

I am in no way saying, "The rules are the rules...so live by them". This is a shooter sport (of which I am also), and the BOD needs to listen so the MG matches become better and better.

Personally, I heard a lot of great things from the shooters. Everyone (well...most everyone), had a great time and thoroughly enjoyed the match. It was a crazy logistic effort to get everything going smoothly, and as expected, there were glitches. But as is life, we learn, we correct, and we move forward.

Thanks again for all the great shooters, all the great attitudes, and all the excellent stories I got to hear. It was a great match, and I will (Lord willing) be back again next year.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited October 26, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae