15 round magazines in Production

[Corey]

from a starting from scratch mindset, 15 does seem reasonable to go along with the newly revamped IPSC restriction on 15 rounds. but they came DOWN to 15 from FULL CAPACITY. why people continue to argue that full capacity is better is beyond me. Again, its a division with rules. part of its rules are limited capacity, minor scoring to promote accruacy needs and the strategy needed to plan reloads for a stage. If you dont like any of them, pick a new division.

[eric4069]

vluc said "Eric, how so? What made them the most bother and why do you want to avoid it?"

Just less complicated stage planning and more fun shooting.

It has been fun in Limited Minor to focus on how to shoot the stage rather than focusing on planning the mag changes.

Like I said, just a matter a personal preference. I'll probably go back to Production soon.

Eric

Edited November 9, 2010 by eric4069

[McAllyn]

We lose California, New Jersey, New York, Hawaii, and upper Illinois Production shooters by moving to 15. We lose anyone using 14 and lower capacity magazines to L-10 or altogether.

We appease some people who would like to reload less and have an easier time planning stages.

I don't see an endgame benefit for the sport in making the rule change. As an occasional, at best, C-D Production shooter, I reload slowly, plan stages poorly, and generally make a mess of my matches. However, I realize that all these things are part of the Production division, and gaining proficiency at these skills is what it's all about.

I have rigs for SS, Limited/L10, and Open, but I choose Production specifically because of the way it's currently setup.

Mac

[Jim Norman]

After we get done beating this horse to death (over 200 hundred posts and most are against the change) maybe we can open a thread to allow 8 or more shot revos in Revolver. Hey, it's not fair that I have the ability to buy an 8 rounder and have to reload after 6. All those extra reloads suck. Heck, I want a 10 round revo so I don't have to practice reloads as much.

[vluc]

vluc said "Eric, how so? What made them the most bother and why do you want to avoid it?"

Just less complicated stage planning and more fun shooting.

It has been fun in Limited Minor to focus on how to shoot the stage rather than focusing on planning the mag changes.

Like I said, just a matter a personal preference. I'll probably go back to Production soon.

Eric

Thanks, Eric. Your answer highlights that we all shoot for different reasons and motivations, which is why changing any rule is such a process as there are just so many motivators/demotivators to consider.

[BBoyle]

I am in the camp of just leave it the way it is. Reloads are not that hard and if anyone here really cared to, and practiced besides on match day, they would see how fast a reload can be done on a stock production gun.

Besides, doing all the reloads in production will make you that much better at it when you switch, step up to, open or limited with a big mouth on it.

I have shot my Kahr MK9 carry gun in production. I have a 7 rd, a 6 rd, and 2 10 round mags for it. If we were to switch to 15 there is no way I could even think of competing against others with it and it is a gun that I carry often. That is also what I like about production, you can show up with an off duty and see how you are against similar shooters with full size weapons and see how you really do with it.

Brian

[colt22man]

Leave production as it is. There are plenty of divisions to compete in if you want more than 10 rounds in your mag.

[badchad]

I could spend a bunch of time, and come up with a list, but I'm not going to bother. I don't even have to go look...I've already mentioned a Beretta 96 (and no, new shooters aren't going to show up with aftermarket 15rd mags for them, so forget that argument), H&K USP in .40 has a 13rd mag. Sig 226 in .40 has a 12rd mag. I've already mentioned the G23, and people who own them, have G23 mags, not G22 mags, so that doesn't fly either. There, some of the most popular guns being sold today, and they'd all be at a disadvantage if they show up in the hands of a prospective USPSA shooter.

I think you forgot what your challenge was Bart. From post #170 you said:

“There are plenty of guns that there isn't an alternative magazine that would allow them to get 15 rounds.”

And I replied:

”Please list me plenty of guns that can’t be made to hold 15, and are good enough that (should you care much about winning) you wouldn’t need to want to upgrade to a different gun anyway.”

Now all you have done is give a list of guns for which every single one has a 15 round option. Between factory mags, Mec Gar, and Arrendondo every single model you listed can hold 15 rounds. For the record I was the one that mentioned the G23 and I did so because I that’s the gun I shot my first match with, I shot Limited with it, and I used G22 mags loaded to 15.

"Hey, I'd like to try this. Oh, everybody else is going to have 2-3 more rounds in the mag? How can I compete with that?"....that is what will happen to your newbies. Just tell them to shoot L-10? "Gee, I know I'll have the same number of rounds as those guys, but they're shooting $3K raceguns. How can I compete with that?"...again, that's what will happen to your newbies.

But that’s not, AT ALL, what I see happening with our newbies. Like I have already said, regardless of what Production legal gun they might have, they mostly load to capacity and shoot Limited, then show up the next week with a magwell on it. I really don’t think any are expecting to compete for the match win, they maybe just want to compete with the guys they came with.

Yes, I would shoot a G21 in L10 over Production, but I'm in a different place, competitively, than a newbie.

In the thread I linked, I think you were advising a newbie to shoot a G21 in L10 rather than just commenting on what you would do personally. Have you changed your mind since then?

If someone has a gun they're shooting in Production now, or wants to start out, and has a gun with 12rd mags, they would have to buy a new gun if they wanted to be on a level playing field with everybody else, should the limit be raised to 15. That's forcing people.

As I have said before, and again and again, if your gun holds only 12 it’s probably a compact or is in some other way already disadvantaged. If it’s a common full size .40, they pretty much all do, or can hold 15 rounds. But even if none of that were true, it still wouldn’t be forcing anyone to buy a new gun, unless by “force” you mean to slightly sway someone in a direction they were probably already going anyway.

No, my actions really don't match your intentions or observations at all.

You shoot a full size 9mm pistol in Production with magazines that already hold 15 or more rounds, and you’re considering changing to another platform that does the exact same thing. That’s what almost everybody does in Production. Those actions match my observation perfectly.

[badchad]

After we get done beating this horse to death (over 200 hundred posts and most are against the change) maybe we can open a thread to allow 8 or more shot revos in Revolver. Hey, it's not fair that I have the ability to buy an 8 rounder and have to reload after 6. All those extra reloads suck. Heck, I want a 10 round revo so I don't have to practice reloads as much.

Good thinking. How about we also open another thread about reducing the Single Stack magazine capacity to 6. That way all those guys shoot officers model colts won't be "forced" to buy new pistols to be "competitive" in SS division, thereby making SS much more inviting to new shooters. Heck I bet that might make SS Division as popular as Revo.

[badchad]

Chad, you keep demanding examples of these 10-14 round capacity guns that are competetive at Nationals, even though few people believe that Nationals should be a good measure of what is popular. You've had two top 5 competitors in Production post on this thread with exactly that information but you choose to ignore it and say it's not possible. David Olhasso has successfully run a Beretta 96 and a Springfield XD .40 in Production, I believe he finished in the top 5 with each. Ernie Langdon shot a M&P .45 a few years back as well. Didn't do as well, but Ernie is still a hell of a shooter. Rich Dettelhouser has been towards the top of the Production heap more than a couple times. Bob Vogel shot a G35 (admittedly holds 15, but it's a .40 and shows the .40 is viable) well enough to win Nationals.

I “choose to ignore? I thought I acknowledged a full size .40 can be competitive. I just pointed out that they either already hold 15, like Vogel’s or can be made to do so on the cheap. But they might not fit the box? Well if you care that much about those .40 shooters (it’s got to be less than 10% nationwide) make an exception for them or better yet, get rid of the box. It’s not like the box serves much of a purpose in Production division anyway. As for a good shooter not placing high with a .45? You are helping me.

[BR]

This thread was a bad idea put into writing, and now it is a pathetic monologue. Cheers.

-br

[smokshwn]

+1 BR

Unlimited personal rationalization undeterred by objective evidence!

[ben b.]

I like shooting .40 Lite loads in Production, as well as 9mm. My .40 mags hold 12. I can switch ammo and can go L10 Major and pick up the scoring advantage.

10 rds work at least as well in Production as in L10. Don't mess with it, please.

[Jim Norman]

My Sig and my XD do NOT have 15 round mags. At least not that meet the rules. They won't fit flush. If you allow extended mags, where do you stp in that direction? I know Open/Production, you need iron sights on a DA gun, otherwise do what you want.

LEAVE IT ALONE.

Badchad, go shoot what ever division you want, but leave them alone as they are. You sound like you would want to run NO2 in stock gas at the drag races just because you have a car set up that way.

I just thought of a novel idea, everyone shoot heads up like we did 10 plus years ago.

[badchad]

My Sig and my XD do NOT have 15 round mags. At least not that meet the rules. They won't fit flush. If you allow extended mags, where do you stp in that direction?

At 15 rounds.

[Chuck Anderson]

As for a good shooter not placing high with a .45? You are helping me.

Yes, clearly placing in the top 16 was not good enough for you. Just out of curiousity, what gun did you run at the Production Nationals, and where did you place. I just want to know so I don't buy that gun since it's clearly not competetive. I said he didn't do as well, I didn't say he didn't place high. You're more than welcome to keep beating a dead horse. It's your right. But I can guarantee it ain't gonna happen.

[ima45dv8]

[gino_aki]

After we get done beating this horse to death (over 200 hundred posts and most are against the change) maybe we can open a thread to allow 8 or more shot revos in Revolver. Hey, it's not fair that I have the ability to buy an 8 rounder and have to reload after 6. All those extra reloads suck. Heck, I want a 10 round revo so I don't have to practice reloads as much.

Good thinking. How about we also open another thread about reducing the Single Stack magazine capacity to 6. That way all those guys shoot officers model colts won't be "forced" to buy new pistols to be "competitive" in SS division, thereby making SS much more inviting to new shooters. Heck I bet that might make SS Division as popular as Revo.

Why would you need to reduce the number of rounds in a mag to accommodate an Officer Model in Single Stack? As far as I know, an Officer Model with an 8 round mag will still fit in the box.

Leave Production the way it is...Limited is for the hi-cap iron-sighters. The rules for each division aren't there to purposely annoy you, they are there to accommodate the greatest number of competitors who want to shoot that division while placing reasonable limits upon equipment modifications so that you don't end up with limitless classes like SCORE off-road racing.

If would be competitors with factory mags of less than 15 round capacity can buy after-market mags to run 15 in their guns they can certainly buy factory or aftermarket mags of OEM or 10 round capacity to compete with while leaving the rules as they are.

Edited November 18, 2010 by gino_aki

[GrumpyOne]

NICE!

[dbltapipsc]

Is this really still going on...where is the popcorn...anyone?

[No.343]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

With 8 shot arrays, you have 15 in the mag at start, but 16 total in the gun. You could shoot both arrays without reloading (don't miss, and you'll end at slidelock!). Not that I want it changed to 15, just pointing out the obvious.

[Cy Soto]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

The 8-shot array is the maximum number of shots from a given position but, at least around here, COF's seldom limit the shooter to engaging targets from static positions (i.e. "box-to-box" COFs).

[No.343]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

With 8 shot arrays, you have 15 in the mag at start, but 16 total in the gun. You could shoot both arrays without reloading (don't miss, and you'll end at slidelock!). Not that I want it changed to 15, just pointing out the obvious.

I understand what you are saying, but I thought we all knew that slidelock reloads are bad and should not be part of the plan except for very rare circumstances. I think that is yet another reason why 15 rounds is a bad idea. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm going to turn the sarcasm off right now. Please leave production the way it is.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

With 8 shot arrays, you have 15 in the mag at start, but 16 total in the gun. You could shoot both arrays without reloading (don't miss, and you'll end at slidelock!). Not that I want it changed to 15, just pointing out the obvious.

I understand what you are saying, but I thought we all knew that slidelock reloads are bad and should not be part of the plan except for very rare circumstances. I think that is yet another reason why 15 rounds is a bad idea. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm going to turn the sarcasm off right now. Please leave production the way it is.

If you were to shoot to slidelock at the end of the second array, then you would be moving to the next array, perfect time to reload from slidelock....Just don't miss on the first or second array.