Looney idea of the week

[dcloudy777]

Okay, times they are a-changin'. The discussion about 1X optics in tac irons has got me thinking, and I've come up with a division concept I want to run by the 3-gun world here and see what sort of discussion it creates. Here goes:

Open: Let the arms race begin. Open means open. Saiga drums, Xrails, lasers, monster muzzle brakes, whatever. If someone wants to build a 1919A6 in 20 gauge, go for it. This division should be the lab where gear is grown. As long as it’s safe, legal, and meets minimum caliber/gauge requirements, bring it, run it, and make us all want one.

Modified: Tactical Optics under a different name. The same equipment rules would apply. This division makes up the bulk of the game, leave it alone.

Limited: Here’s where things start to get different. Pistol rules same as Modified. 1X optic or irons on the rifle. 30rd mags only. Same comp/brake limitations as Tac Optics. PUMP shotguns that otherwise conform to Modified rules. This is the “stuff I have in the safe anyway” or “stuff that’s cheap to get and I should have in the safe anyway” class. You could buy all the gear you need to win this class for under $2K, probably well under.

Heavy Metal: Now things are starting to get complicated. Heavy Metal isn’t a stand-alone division. If a shooter chooses to compete in any of the 3 divisions with a rifle of .308 caliber or above (20rd mag limit), a pistol of .45ACP or above (8 rd mag limit), or a revolver of .38Spl or above, the shooter can neutralize paper targets with the “heavy metal option” (1 shot only on target with an A or B zone hit). The “heavy metal” gun must otherwise conform to the requirements of the chosen division.

The number of targets neutralized using the heavy metal option can be totaled for the whole match and used to recognize/reward the top HM shooters. (such as highest number of “HMO” targets in each division, total match time divided by HMO targets, etc.)

Here’s the advantages I think this system would bring to our game:

Makes fewer, but larger divisions: As much as I would love to see it, I don’t think Tac Irons (without 1X optics anyway) or HM is going to get any bigger than it is now. Shooting against 6 or 7 folks is still fun, but shooting against 60 or 70 is way more fun. I think I’ve come up with a way to fold iron sights and HM into larger pools of competition while still allowing them to remain competitive.

Gets pump-guns out of Heavy Metal: It seems in my talking to HM shooters, and shooting a few matches in HM myself, that the pump shotgun is the least favorite part of HM. It also encourages the use of the lightest 12ga loads one can find, which IMHO kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Gives pump-guns a bigger place to play: The pump shotgun needs a place in 3-gun, because it’s cheap, and everybody already has one. I would venture that in looking at “defensive” type shotguns alone, pumps outnumber autoloaders by at least 20 to 1 in the US.

Limited is a great entry-level division: Most “gun people” these days seem have an AR with a dot on it, a pump shotgun that either already holds or can easily be made to hold 9 rounds, and a good defensive pistol. A zillion new combat vets are coming back from durkadurkistan with time behind a 1X optic, and a ton of them come home and immediately buy one for themselves. Dot-sighted patrol rifles are becoming more and more prevalent in law enforcement. I personally carry all the gear I would need to shoot in this division in my car everywhere I go.

What say you, 3-gun? (flame suit on) Like I usually say when I'm throwing out my addled musings; I'm not trying to change the world, I just try to think about ways to improve and grow the game, and encourage everyone to do the same.

DanO

[1chota]

Okay, times they are a-changin'. The discussion about 1X optics in tac irons has got me thinking, and I've come up with a division concept I want to run by the 3-gun world here and see what sort of discussion it creates. Here goes:

Open: Let the arms race begin. Open means open. Saiga drums, Xrails, lasers, monster muzzle brakes, whatever. If someone wants to build a 1919A6 in 20 gauge, go for it. This division should be the lab where gear is grown. As long as it’s safe, legal, and meets minimum caliber/gauge requirements, bring it, run it, and make us all want one.

Modified: Tactical Optics under a different name. The same equipment rules would apply. This division makes up the bulk of the game, leave it alone.

Limited: Here’s where things start to get different. Pistol rules same as Modified. 1X optic or irons on the rifle. 30rd mags only. Same comp/brake limitations as Tac Optics. PUMP shotguns that otherwise conform to Modified rules. This is the “stuff I have in the safe anyway” or “stuff that’s cheap to get and I should have in the safe anyway” class. You could buy all the gear you need to win this class for under $2K, probably well under.

Heavy Metal: Now things are starting to get complicated. Heavy Metal isn’t a stand-alone division. If a shooter chooses to compete in any of the 3 divisions with a rifle of .308 caliber or above (20rd mag limit), a pistol of .45ACP or above (8 rd mag limit), or a revolver of .38Spl or above, the shooter can neutralize paper targets with the “heavy metal option” (1 shot only on target with an A or B zone hit). The “heavy metal” gun must otherwise conform to the requirements of the chosen division.

The number of targets neutralized using the heavy metal option can be totaled for the whole match and used to recognize/reward the top HM shooters. (such as highest number of “HMO” targets in each division, total match time divided by HMO targets, etc.)

Here’s the advantages I think this system would bring to our game:

Makes fewer, but larger divisions: As much as I would love to see it, I don’t think Tac Irons (without 1X optics anyway) or HM is going to get any bigger than it is now. Shooting against 6 or 7 folks is still fun, but shooting against 60 or 70 is way more fun. I think I’ve come up with a way to fold iron sights and HM into larger pools of competition while still allowing them to remain competitive.

Gets pump-guns out of Heavy Metal: It seems in my talking to HM shooters, and shooting a few matches in HM myself, that the pump shotgun is the least favorite part of HM. It also encourages the use of the lightest 12ga loads one can find, which IMHO kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Gives pump-guns a bigger place to play: The pump shotgun needs a place in 3-gun, because it’s cheap, and everybody already has one. I would venture that in looking at “defensive” type shotguns alone, pumps outnumber autoloaders by at least 20 to 1 in the US.

Limited is a great entry-level division: Most “gun people” these days seem have an AR with a dot on it, a pump shotgun that either already holds or can easily be made to hold 9 rounds, and a good defensive pistol. A zillion new combat vets are coming back from durkadurkistan with time behind a 1X optic, and a ton of them come home and immediately buy one for themselves. Dot-sighted patrol rifles are becoming more and more prevalent in law enforcement. I personally carry all the gear I would need to shoot in this division in my car everywhere I go.

What say you, 3-gun? (flame suit on) Like I usually say when I'm throwing out my addled musings; I'm not trying to change the world, I just try to think about ways to improve and grow the game, and encourage everyone to do the same.

DanO

Flame thrower is lit. not one whit of sense in changing heavy metal. you might not be used to stroking something that long, but a pump shotgun is the way to go.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think the rules sound great! If you have a match you can do things exactly the way you want them and I will come shoot, especially if it in natural terrain.

The chances of the guys with A type personalities that run the major 3 gun matches ever conforming to the same set of rules is not likely going to happen without some sort of monetary incentive to bring eveyone together they will remain outlaw matches so everybody can do things the way they want.

[D.Hayden]

lol - yup - that's why we have all the different rules we do.

[Outsydlooknin75]

So semi shotguns are only allowed in modified, but allowed in heavy metal?

[abn-rgr]

My head hurt reading that.....I need a beer.

[dcloudy777]

So semi shotguns are only allowed in modified, but allowed in heavy metal?

In my theoretical system, Heavy Metal isn't a separate division (there's only 3 divisions), but more of an option you can choose no matter what division you want to shoot. If you choose to shoot a "heavy metal" pistol, rifle, or both, you can shoot a pump shotgun and shoot Limited, or an autoloader and shoot Modified, or even a saiga or speedloader gun and shoot open. (personally I'd love to see an open rifle in .308, or an open singlestack .45 with a dot and comp... old school IPSC FTW!) In exchange for moving up in power and down in capacity, you are allowed the one-shot option on paper targets. Bottom line is, the HM shooters get to compete in larger divisions, with greater latitude in equipment selection.

DanO

[Bryan 45]

The thing about us heavy metal shooters is we don't want a greater latitude of equipment selection.

The pump shotgun is a dinosaur. No sense trying to make it competitive in any other division. Yes, a lot of shooters have them, but the mountain the new shooter has to climb is loading the shotgun, not operating it.

[Mike P]

So semi shotguns are only allowed in modified, but allowed in heavy metal?

In my theoretical system, Heavy Metal isn't a separate division (there's only 3 divisions), but more of an option you can choose no matter what division you want to shoot. If you choose to shoot a "heavy metal" pistol, rifle, or both, you can shoot a pump shotgun and shoot Limited, or an autoloader and shoot Modified, or even a saiga or speedloader gun and shoot open. (personally I'd love to see an open rifle in .308, or an open singlestack .45 with a dot and comp... old school IPSC FTW!) In exchange for moving up in power and down in capacity, you are allowed the one-shot option on paper targets. Bottom line is, the HM shooters get to compete in larger divisions, with greater latitude in equipment selection.

DanO

If I understand this, (and I damn well may not)you have three main divisions, and HM is basically a choice of caliber or SG operating system to place the competitor within one of the 3 main divisions with a different point value for target engagement, then the HM competittor is scored and awarded as part of the division rather than separately. Is this right? So an individual can use the equipment that they want to without having to worry about enough people to be recognized separately.

Maybe you should write the rules up on no more than ONE sheet of paper, and use them in a multi-gun match at Tullahoma. Hell, I'll give it a try.

I believe that requiring the use of a pump SG will queer the deal for most currently competing iron shooters, but you never know.

[StealthyBlagga]

I would propose an even simpler solution - at least for IMA time plus scoring. I would suggest we kill off the Heavy Metal divisions entirely, and roll those competitors into the comparable Tactical divisions (e.g. HM Scope now becomes part of Tac Scope). To make the big guns competitive, change the neutralization rules so that the "major" calibers only require one hit in the A, B or C zone to neutralize each target, whereas the "minor" calibers would still require one hit in the A or B zone. As before, two hits with either caliber would work too.

Under this scheme, there would be no more 20-round magazine capacity limit in HM. This approach could also allow mixed equipment - for example, competitors could run their major rifle and minor pistol, with the appropriate neutralization rules applying to each.

Simple eh ? .

[Stlhead]

I would propose an even simpler solution - at least for IMA time plus scoring. I would suggest we kill off the Heavy Metal divisions entirely, and roll those competitors into the comparable Tactical divisions (e.g. HM Scope now becomes part of Tac Scope). To make the big guns competitive, change the neutralization rules so that the "major" calibers only require one hit in the A, B or C zone to neutralize each target, whereas the "minor" calibers would still require one hit in the A or B zone. As before, two hits with either caliber would work too.

Under this scheme, there would be no more 20-round magazine capacity limit in HM. This approach could also allow mixed equipment - for example, competitors could run their major rifle and minor pistol, with the appropriate neutralization rules applying to each.

Simple eh ? .

I like this idea!

[Alaskapopo]

I can't remember the posters name who had the idea but I like the idea of a production division for three gun. Basically production rules for the pistols from USPSA. Pump shotgun only, Iron sighted rifle only. It would be cheap for someone to get into the game.

Pat

[MarkCO]

I would propose an even simpler solution - at least for IMA time plus scoring. I would suggest we kill off the Heavy Metal divisions entirely, and roll those competitors into the comparable Tactical divisions (e.g. HM Scope now becomes part of Tac Scope). To make the big guns competitive, change the neutralization rules so that the "major" calibers only require one hit in the A, B or C zone to neutralize each target, whereas the "minor" calibers would still require one hit in the A or B zone. As before, two hits with either caliber would work too.

Under this scheme, there would be no more 20-round magazine capacity limit in HM. This approach could also allow mixed equipment - for example, competitors could run their major rifle and minor pistol, with the appropriate neutralization rules applying to each.

Simple eh ? .

I like this idea!

Me too! Especially if the .308/.30/06 caliber restriction went away!

[slowsure]

I would propose an even simpler solution - at least for IMA time plus scoring. I would suggest we kill off the Heavy Metal divisions entirely, and roll those competitors into the comparable Tactical divisions (e.g. HM Scope now becomes part of Tac Scope). To make the big guns competitive, change the neutralization rules so that the "major" calibers only require one hit in the A, B or C zone to neutralize each target, whereas the "minor" calibers would still require one hit in the A or B zone. As before, two hits with either caliber would work too.

Under this scheme, there would be no more 20-round magazine capacity limit in HM. This approach could also allow mixed equipment - for example, competitors could run their major rifle and minor pistol, with the appropriate neutralization rules applying to each.

Simple eh ? .

I like this idea!

Me too! Especially if the .308/.30/06 caliber restriction went away!

I like this idea but....it would force match admin. to do calibration. I mean 320 is 320.

Dan, I cant wait for next week.

[bunsen27]

I can't remember the posters name who had the idea but I like the idea of a production division for three gun. Basically production rules for the pistols from USPSA. Pump shotgun only, Iron sighted rifle only. It would be cheap for someone to get into the game.

Pat

I recall seeing this idea previously and think it is a GREAT idea for an entry level division due to it's lowered economic barrier of entry! Utilizing any Production legal pistol(top off the mags though), an off the shelf open sighted (irons or dot) non-compensated AR with 30 rnd mags, and a basic pump shotgun (Benelli Nova, Rem 870, Moss 500) just add a tube so it's 8+1. You could get a new shooter into the 3gun game for roughly $2k and likely even less. The mythical Tactical Redneck with his new Black rifle and Glock might actually already have a shotgun he could compete with. I don't see this division being recognized at any of the major matches, but the local level matches could give it a go and see how the turnout is. It shouldn't negatively impact any of the existing divisions participation. I know I'd be willing to shoot my pump and M4 clone occasionally instead of my normal TO gear just so I've got some trigger time with my gear for the Zombie Apocalypse.

[Outsydlooknin75]

I dont own a pump scattergun, my scattergun is an autoloader. I like the idea of the production class but all it really boils down to is more rules ...... do we really need MORE rules?

[bunsen27]

I dont own a pump scattergun, my scattergun is an autoloader. I like the idea of the production class but all it really boils down to is more rules ...... do we really need MORE rules?

I see your point about keeping rules to a minimum, too many rules or divisions can be a bad thing. USPSA pistol does have six successful divisions and rule sets though. The discussion of a Production 3 gun division is probably enough of a thread drift and I don't want to threadjack this thread so I'll go ahead and start a new topic in the near future when I have some time to ponder a few more of the details.

[Alaskapopo]

I dont own a pump scattergun, my scattergun is an autoloader. I like the idea of the production class but all it really boils down to is more rules ...... do we really need MORE rules?

I see your point about keeping rules to a minimum, too many rules or divisions can be a bad thing. USPSA pistol does have six successful divisions and rule sets though. The discussion of a Production 3 gun division is probably enough of a thread drift and I don't want to threadjack this thread so I'll go ahead and start a new topic in the near future when I have some time to ponder a few more of the details.

I am willing to try creating this division in the two three gun matches I host over the summer to see how popular it is. Mine are just smaller matches at this point with between 15 and 30 people showing up usually.

[Braxton1]

I can't remember the posters name who had the idea but I like the idea of a production division for three gun. Basically production rules for the pistols from USPSA. Pump shotgun only, Iron sighted rifle only. It would be cheap for someone to get into the game.

Pat

I was the one (or one of the ones) who was proposing a Production 3-Gun Division. As I see it, the rules would be simple and relatively easy to enforce:

Production Division handgun

Pump-Action Shotgun, 8+1 max, iron sights or bead

Production Rifle, minor only, iron sights, 30+1 rounds ON THE GUN (no Redi-Mags, couplers, 45-rounders, etc.)

(MODS: Do we need to branch this discussion to its own thread?)

[ShooterSteve]

I don't understand the theory of limiting rifle rounds for production. Anyone can buy inexpensive 40 rounders, and a mag cinch is only 20 bucks. Why limit stuff that doesn't really make a difference in cost in the grand scheme of things?

[shooting for M]

OK, I am going to throw my hat in the ring. I like three gun, and want to shoot three gun more in the future, but my complaint is that dang rules! NOBODY USES THE SAME RULES! Some allow this and not that some that and not this, some score this way, others score that way. Come on guys for petes sake I keep looking at getting a decent scope and every time I look at another match I need another scope! Or another pistol some have no power factor for anything, others use power factor for everything. Pump or semi, 8+1 or 9+1. Come on guys! Then the guys that run the sport I love, USPSA, come around and add another set of rules, this is CRAZY!

Anyway, I will probably be shooting more three gun in the future anyway, but really how many pistol only matches do we change rules for?

[AlamoShooter]

When do the match application come out and do you have a match hotel picked yet?

[Alaskapopo]

I don't understand the theory of limiting rifle rounds for production. Anyone can buy inexpensive 40 rounders, and a mag cinch is only 20 bucks. Why limit stuff that doesn't really make a difference in cost in the grand scheme of things?

I agree with you. I would also like to see a separate organization dedicated to three gun. Much like USPSA but just three gun with its own rules that are standardized.

Pat

[Blackfin2]

DanO,

I am starting a new range in FL, I have been developing a rule book focusing on 3-gun. I dont want to adapt to a rule book that was not wrtiten to govern or direct a 3 gun match. GIve me your "perfect world" three gun rules as you, and your responders are the experts, what are they for each new division. MY 2 cents added to what you have said previously< production allowing 1X on rifle for those whom have vision issues (as to not leave them out on longer rifle shots), 20 round mags only (requiring mag changes) as they are a main function in terms of skill in shooting, to include (1) manditory mag change after first shot in both pistol and rifle. And a required reload of at least (3) rnds after first shot of shotgun prior to engaging a texas star.

Reloading efficiently and effectively is as important skill as the actual pulling of the trigger.

PM me if you would like bsi@earthlink.net or call 407-808-5003

The basic question is: what would the divisions and rules governing those divisions read like.

Thanks, why adapt, when we can change it! ALL PLEASE CHIME IN.

Wayne

[Aglifter]

How 'bout less rules, and fewer divisions. EG, you shoot a high enough power factor, you get to be sloppier on your hits, and leave it at that.