Chronograph weirdness at IPSC Nationals

[dansy]

In the last 5 years I only been to one match (level III) were the chrono stage was scrap and if my memory serve me well it had been shoot (literally) and because it was a multiple days match some shooters had already left so the RM decide to just scrap the chrono requirement....not something you see often...of course normally no chrono for level II but then again I have seen it and that did made a few shoot minor (I was operating that chrono) even one fellow with a 45 when minor talk about puff loads....

[Flexmoney]

I'm sure the rules were followed...I just wanted to know what things might have an effect on chronograph consistency with infrared screens.

I still contend there was something wonky with the chronograph stage when our squad went through...too many of the FREAKIN' TOP SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD having problems to be normal.

In my experience, it is quite normal. Especially when I learn that Ben is shooting AA ammo as well.

Matt only made 130pf at the IDPA Nats? Too close.

I watched as our entire squad of (GM) Production shooters barely squeaked through chrono at the USPSA Nats one year. One or two didn't. (Most were using some of that ammo that "works great everywhere").

Too many people see the floor as a goal line. No...it's a trap door.

And, folks...whatever variability chrono might have...expect that variability to be the norm. Scale up for it.

Load UP or risk going home, having lost the match at chrono.

[Ben Stoeger]

I'm sure the rules were followed...I just wanted to know what things might have an effect on chronograph consistency with infrared screens.

I still contend there was something wonky with the chronograph stage when our squad went through...too many of the FREAKIN' TOP SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD having problems to be normal.

In my experience, it is quite normal. Especially when I learn that Ben is shooting AA ammo as well.

It is not normal for me to make 125.01 Power Factor, just to clarify. Normally my gun runs 128-130.

[walter hornby]

When i use to run our Chrono i found that one of the things that affected it was the angle of the sun coming in through the front or back opening. i had one match where i had the sun directly over my shoulder and i was getting 2000 FPS out of stock 45's. now since i was blowing the guns apart i and they didn't feel like they were over powered i figured the chrono had to be wrong. one of the ways i stopped that problem was to set a tent up over the chrono so that there was not direct sunlight hitting it. it seem to help.

[G-ManBart]

Too many people see the floor as a goal line. No...it's a trap door.

And, folks...whatever variability chrono might have...expect that variability to be the norm. Scale up for it.

Load UP or risk going home, having lost the match at chrono.

Yep...that's the answer!

I checked my ammo for this year's Nationals at least four or five times (that exact batch) and it was never below 172PF, with a high of 176PF. Today, it went 169.1PF Last year I did the same thing, with a similar range at home (172-175) and was at 172 at Nationals. Why the difference between years...too many variables to count, but I gave myself enough margin that it didn't matter. I have a good supply of AA&A's Team Glock load (new brass) and it's only right at 130-131PF in my M&P, so I loaded my own 135-137PF) for the one big match I shot in Production this year....worked perfectly. R,

[Chuck Anderson]

I shot the MultiGun Nats and the L10 Nats this year with the same gun and same ammo. Exact same stuff loaded 6 years ago (okay I don't shoot a lot of Limited anymore). I was 172 at the MG and 178 at the L10. I'm betting the setup, including the chronos themselves, was the same.

[Sean Gaines]

I'm sure the rules were followed...I just wanted to know what things might have an effect on chronograph consistency with infrared screens.

I still contend there was something wonky with the chronograph stage when our squad went through...too many of the FREAKIN' TOP SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD having problems to be normal.

In my experience, it is quite normal. Especially when I learn that Ben is shooting AA ammo as well.

Matt only made 130pf at the IDPA Nats? Too close.

I watched as our entire squad of (GM) Production shooters barely squeaked through chrono at the USPSA Nats one year. One or two didn't. (Most were using some of that ammo that "works great everywhere").

Too many people see the floor as a goal line. No...it's a trap door.

And, folks...whatever variability chrono might have...expect that variability to be the norm. Scale up for it.

Load UP or risk going home, having lost the match at chrono.

+100

[Flexmoney]

FYI...I deleted a couple of recent posts here.

A new member being antagonistic, and some of the fall out from that.

- Admin.

[gmshtr]

As one of the cheaters, I would like to respond.

I arrived at the IPSC Nationals with the exact same ammunition (factory AA&A 147 9mm) and a brand new M&P 9 Pro (5" barrel).

My ammo made a 124.5 PF after 7 shots...Period. I sub minored right after Matt Mink's 122 PF. I asked Paul Hernandez to look into it, and he did so with his white box 115 9mm ammo, with very little variance. I did not protest the Chrono, I simply asked if Ken would legally be able to change batteries and see if things still stayed the same. Apparently the rules wouldn't allow it, and that was it. Now I will not be on the US Production Team.

I can say that I have been using this exact same lot of ammo since early last year, and I've consistently chrono'd between 129-133PF. As soon as I got home after the IPSC nationals, I shot the exact same ammo and gun through two different Chrono makes from over 7 yards away and the lowest velocity I had was a 129 PF, with an average of 131.

I brought the exact same ammo and gun here to nationals, so I'll hope for the best. Make sure you have all the facts before you cast aspersions.

Phil Strader

[BradEngmann]

I was fortunate enough to be placed on the same squad as Phil, Matt, Bob, Dave, Ben, et al. I shot the same ammo as Phil out of a Glock 17- boxed Atlanta Arms. Since it was a borrowed gun, I chronoed right before I left for the match. On average I was in the low to mid 130s in about 75 degree heat. At the match I barely scratched by at 126.1. Regardless on the explanation (and the ROs were very professional, friendly and accomodating) I believe that Matt and Phil got unlucky with their power factors. It happens but it's too bad that a couple of great shooters would be taken out of the match by chance. There's no way that any shooters were skirting the line so to speak. Everyone has to chrono and it would be foolish to leave such a small margin or error intentionally. Any suggestions that they would cheat with their ammo only can originate from simple minds.

[d_striker]

I will preface this by saying that I know NOTHING about chronos. I have never used one.. ever.

I will just say what happened on my squad.

I shoot Atlanta Arms 147 grain factory stuff... I have for years. I have never gone sub minor.. ever.I was within a whisker of having that happen at the IPSC nationals.

Both Matt Mink and Phil Strader (on my sqaud) DID go sub minor. That is strange... because both of them seem to know what they are doing at least half of the time.

I was told by them that they protested the chrono.. the chrono was checked.. and found to be in working order.

I don't know what happened... but it was strange.

I am not slamming the match (one of the best I have EVER shot).. I enjoyed it a lot... just reporting to people what happened.

Feel free to speculate now among yourselves.

As one of the cheaters, I would like to respond.

I arrived at the IPSC Nationals with the exact same ammunition (factory AA&A 147 9mm) and a brand new M&P 9 Pro (5" barrel).

My ammo made a 124.5 PF after 7 shots...Period. I sub minored right after Matt Mink's 122 PF. I asked Paul Hernandez to look into it, and he did so with his white box 115 9mm ammo, with very little variance. I did not protest the Chrono, I simply asked if Ken would legally be able to change batteries and see if things still stayed the same. Apparently the rules wouldn't allow it, and that was it. Now I will not be on the US Production Team.

I can say that I have been using this exact same lot of ammo since early last year, and I've consistently chrono'd between 129-133PF. As soon as I got home after the IPSC nationals, I shot the exact same ammo and gun through two different Chrono makes from over 7 yards away and the lowest velocity I had was a 129 PF, with an average of 131.

I brought the exact same ammo and gun here to nationals, so I'll hope for the best. Make sure you have all the facts before you cast aspersions.

Phil Strader

All of the following is just speculative opinion.

I think that there was a failure somewhere and that a Root Cause Analysis can be employed. The common link in the prefaced threads, is the AA&A ammo.

The questions are:

1.) What type of powder is used in this ammo?

2.) Is it inversely temperature sensitive?

Which ultimately leads to the question of handling process control once the ammo is submitted to be chrono'd. I've never shot a major match and don't know the process. How is the ammo stored once it is turned over to the officials?

I think that there was definitely an issue, but based off of the statistics, I'm not sure the issue was with the chrono itself. I think that a thorough root cause analysis may point to the actual handling process of the ammo.

Edited October 15, 2010 by d_striker

[G-ManBart]

All of the following is just speculative opinion.

I think that there was a failure somewhere and that a Root Cause Analysis can be employed. The common link in the prefaced threads, is the AA&A ammo.

The questions are:

1.) What type of powder is used in this ammo?

2.) Is it inversely temperature sensitive?

Which ultimately leads to the question of handling process control once the ammo is submitted to be chrono'd. I've never shot a major match and don't know the process. How is the ammo stored once it is turned over to the officials?

I think that there was definitely an issue, but based off of the statistics, I'm not sure the issue was with the chrono itself. I think that a thorough root cause analysis may point to the actual handling process of the ammo.

I've been told (good authority) that AA&A uses Win 248 powder in the 9/147 load. No idea on it's temperature sensitivity.

I will say that the same ammo out of my M&P Pro (5") is about 132PF, and that isn't enough margin of error for me. Out of a G34, I'd expect it to be a bit faster due to the polygonal rifling. R,

[dansy]

I have been at many major matches and there's always somebody that doesn't past for various reason....when we talk about average of so few rounds..I wasn't there so I don't know if one round was much lower then other but I have seen that before....I also have used the AA&A ammo at major US matches (38SC) with good result...but it doesn't mean that something cannot happen with a round here and there...I have been on the edge before and I can't really say why because I sometimes loads 3 to 4K in one long session. I have one load for IPSC and one for USPSA(open).

I don't anybody that goes to major match to cheat with ammo.....and that would be very much counterproductive since you are guarantee to have a chrono's, and considering travel and lodging expenses.....

The guy's that I suspect to cheat were local on a level 2 MATCH because we don't normally chrono on level 2...but nothing say that a MD cannot run one...is cheating that worth your name well not for me....

I'm sure these guy's were not cheating and that would be super tough to digest what ever way you look at it....I would be devastated if it happen to me!

[sperman]

As has been discussed before, if someone wants to cheat the chrono, it's not hard to do. I'm sure if these guys wanted to shoot sub-minor ammo, they would be sure to have 8 rounds in their bag to give the chrono guy that would be legal.

Whatever happened, I'm sure the shooters who went sub-minor were not trying to cheat.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...let's put a lid on the cheater talk.

I already removed the post that brought that up in the first place

- Admin.

[G-ManBart]

I pulled my data book on the AA&A 147gr 9mm (Team Glock=new SL cases) load. I chrono'd it five times, ranging from 46* to 92*F. The lowest Avg was 907fps and the highest was 911fps. The highest was on the hottest day, and the lowest on the coldest, but that still looks pretty darned temperature stable to me. Still, a 133PF load is just a bit too light for me to be comfortable with....I wanted a solid 135-137PF load, and that's what I got with my handloads. R,

[Tyro Shooter]

One thing I have noticed over the years is never expect your favorite load will make the Power factor when it needs to.

at home things are just ducky and no amount of wind rain sun will vary you reading more than 5%.

but the moment you hand over those rounds with your name on them. the poop hits the fan.

I've had my favorit IDPA loads supprise the hell out of me by making it through the Chrono and have been sweating over factory ammo that needed that last round to get over the hump.

at this years multigun nats i had my rifle rounds clock at 200 FPS slower than I've ever seen (we Chronoed on Sun morning. . .so heat was not too much of an issue)

the only thing i've come up with is

"The Chrono's can smell fear, and will F*ck with you accordingly"

[d_striker]

I pulled my data book on the AA&A 147gr 9mm (Team Glock=new SL cases) load. I chrono'd it five times, ranging from 46* to 92*F. The lowest Avg was 907fps and the highest was 911fps. The highest was on the hottest day, and the lowest on the coldest, but that still looks pretty darned temperature stable to me. Still, a 133PF load is just a bit too light for me to be comfortable with....I wanted a solid 135-137PF load, and that's what I got with my handloads. R,

This is good info. If it temp sensitive, it throws out the possibility that ammo left sitting in the sun caused the sub minor velocity.

[gmshtr]

In an effort to put this laborious discussion at rest, I went to the USPSA Production Nationals in Las Vegas with the exact same lot of ammunition and pistol. Just like it always has (with exception of the IPSC Nationals), the ammunition came through as a 131.5 PF. I've shot the AA&A 147gr 9mm for the last year, and it only went under 130 once, and that was at South Carolina.

I will continue to use this ammo at all of my Production matches in the future, and I can only hope that the same issues don't come up again...I doubt they will.

[pjb45]

If I remember correctly, there was a chrono issue at A2 one year. One squad failed to make major. The problem was the squad had quite a few GMs on it. One member of the squad was the technical rep for VV powder for the US. He offered to get his Oehler out of his truck and show them the error of their ways. To my understanding the chrono broke down then reset their chrono up.

Guess what: Minor went to major. My conclusion is that sometimes times the gremlins hit.

I prefer Voight's advice, go at least five over and don't worry about it. My ammo has the exact small load over 5 years of Nationals and A2 matches. It hits ~170 ever time.

[G-ManBart]

I prefer Voight's advice, go at least five over and don't worry about it. My ammo has the exact small load over 5 years of Nationals and A2 matches. It hits ~170 ever time.

If I did that I would have gone Minor two years ago, and been very, very close this year. I also had a new lot of powder that required going from 10.5 to 10.85gr...so saying to just keep it the same can be misleading to folks that don't realize you have to chrono on top of that to make sure the lots aren't different.

What I absolutely don't get is why people get fixated on 5 over...it feels the same, and works the same on the timer as several points higher, but has less margin for error. I can barely see a difference in 10PF, and that's with an Open gun where the comp seems to magnify changes. My 137PF Minor load is softer, and better on the clock than the ammo I bought that's 132PF R,

[RePete]

If you're not running 135+PF at home, you're risking going sub-Minor at a big match, and that won't be much fun. If you declare Major, and go Minor, the worst that happens is you give up something like 50-100 match points, but you're still shooting for score. R,

I'm running 137 in 9mm and in 90+ humid weather the PF drops to 135. I DQ'd a friend for 163PF instead of 165 that was declared, and another for 120 instead of 125.

DON'T USE THE BASE pf AS YOUR GOAL, GO 5 OR 6 OVER AND YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM.

I'm sure the rules were followed...I just wanted to know what things might have an effect on chronograph consistency with infrared screens.

I still contend there was something wonky with the chronograph stage when our squad went through...too many of the FREAKIN' TOP SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD having problems to be normal.

In my experience, it is quite normal. Especially when I learn that Ben is shooting AA ammo as well.

Matt only made 130pf at the IDPA Nats? Too close.

I watched as our entire squad of (GM) Production shooters barely squeaked through chrono at the USPSA Nats one year. One or two didn't. (Most were using some of that ammo that "works great everywhere").

Too many people see the floor as a goal line. No...it's a trap door.

And, folks...whatever variability chrono might have...expect that variability to be the norm. Scale up for it.

Load UP or risk going home, having lost the match at chrono.

Ain't that the truth.

[Dave Campbell]

Why would you DQ someone for for having declared Major at 165 Pf , and it came out a 163 PF?? If it came out 140 , I cold maybe see unsportsman like conduct, but 163 is to close to make it a Major issue worth DQing someone. Minor is bad enough.

Dave

[Chills1994]

Ya, know, how we use the average of the velocities to calculate an average PF, right?

well, being kinda stats or numbers minded, would it make a difference if we used the median?

Seeing how the arithmetic mean...err...average can be so influenced by just one or two widely varying numbers...especially with such a small sample size.

Sorry if I am not quite up to speed on how the actual chrono procedure works...as in...if the chrono guy throws out the lowest one or two "data points" and keeps the best 7 to calculate the average.

And yeah, I know, the CED chrono's don't come with a median button.

[RePete]

Why would you DQ someone for for having declared Major at 165 Pf , and it came out a 163 PF?? If it came out 140 , I cold maybe see unsportsman like conduct, but 163 is to close to make it a Major issue worth DQing someone. Minor is bad enough.

Dave

Why?

Because the rule states 165 not 165'ish and he clearly wasn't at the declared PF. (IDPA and shooting in ESR)

164.999 isn't 165.

You clearly need to read and understand the rules regarding PF.