Prop Guns

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'm shooting a match that has prop guns on 3 of 5 stages. I just shot a stage that only used a prop gun which was a side by side coach gun. I am now thinking I'm not a big fan of prop guns no matter how cool they are.

What do you think? Should MD's get rid of them or give us more?

[abn-rgr]

Im not a fan of them unless they are a gimme shot and they need to be reliable. You wont see them at our match for sure.

[StealthyBlagga]

Im not a fan of them unless they are a gimme shot and they need to be reliable. You wont see them at our match for sure.

+1... I have nothing to add to this statement.

[jar]

I used to like them, then I started caring about the match results.

[OPENB]

I like em. Ft. Benning, I've gotten to shoot a full auto AK, Bushmaster ACR w/can on auto, M203 grenade launcher. It's all about fun. Have fun!

[J-Ho]

Everything in moderation

[Jesse Tischauser]

Oh we also shot 3 blind stages two of which had prop guns. Feel free to chime in about your love or lack thereof for blind stages too.

I'm done with both. If you want to let me shoot a cool gun that's great let's do it after the match.

[Dan Sierpina]

Blue Ridge used several "stage" guns. The toys from Barrett were great! ( I want a 98 Bravao now) The Sabre M4 was good also. Some squad members had issues with the .22's in "The Cave", luckily I did not. I'm not a fan of them at local matches though. A couple years ago, the 12ga side by side started screwing up.....discharging when solidly closing the breech. Like any prop for a match, they must work each and every time for every shooter.

[spd522]

They are OK in some instances but lately, most of the ones showing up at matches didn't work or were not sighted in.

And some are unusual designs where they are a disadvantage to those unfamiliar with them.

For the most part, if the prop gun is being shot for score, it shouldn't be in the match.

Craig

[Jesse Tischauser]

I watched a really good 14 year old junior shooter struggle with a AR10 for about 20 seconds under the timer. He just wasn't familiar with the gun enough to know how to properly load it. Once it was loaded he rang the 150-200 yard flashers like a champ. It was painful watching him struggle.

Edited September 12, 2010 by jtischauser

[Wakal]

Last year's IRON MAN had three prop guns in one (blind) stage, and two prop guns in an open stage. Awesome. The key is reliable, accurate is the shooter's problem

Alex

[Jesse Tischauser]

accurate is the shooter's problem

Alex

You ever pick up your buddies pistol or rifle and notice that it shoots high right for you but dead on for him? We all see the sights and work the triggers differently.

Edited September 12, 2010 by jtischauser

[GorillaTactical]

If I shot 1 of 5 stages completely with a coach gun......I'd be pretty upset with the MD. That just sounds kinda dumb...why bring our own guns if we are gonna shoot classic props on all the stages. I mean it's awesome to be able to shoot a mini gun at Larue....or a comparable weapon (one the civi's don't normally get to handle)....but it takes away from the game if overused.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

If I shot 1 of 5 stages completely with a coach gun......I'd be pretty upset with the MD. That just sounds kinda dumb...why bring our own guns if we are gonna shoot classic props on all the stages. I mean it's awesome to be able to shoot a mini gun at Larue....or a comparable weapon (one the civi's don't normally get to handle)....but it takes away from the game if overused.

We got to screw around with a piece of 19th Century technology - sort of interesting I guess (not really). But we didn't get to shoot our own rifles more than 40 yards (our slug targets were farther out than the shots we made with our own rifles).

I really think that prop guns have become overused in recent years. Just like the recent over-emphasis on support-side shooting, shooting through itty-bitty ports & slots, and shooting with the rifle canted sideways, upside down, etc. All of this is good in moderation, but our sport is OD'ing on some of it.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Fullauto_Shooter

[Joe4d]

3 of 5 stages ?

Talk about over kill, I'd say once or twice in a years worth of matches is an interesting diversion. But only if it is on extremely easy shots.

Blind stages never are for everyone and should not be used.

You'd be hard pressed to run a match where, no match staff, no match setup help, no scorers or pasters are allowed to shoot the match. and then guard the stage after construction.

[GorillaTactical]

We got to screw around with a piece of 19th Century technology - sort of interesting I guess (not really). But we didn't get to shoot our own rifles more than 40 yards (our slug targets were farther out than the shots we made with our own rifles).

I really think that prop guns have become overused in recent years. Just like the recent over-emphasis on support-side shooting, shooting through itty-bitty ports & slots, and shooting with the rifle canted sideways, upside down, etc. All of this is good in moderation, but our sport is OD'ing on some of it.

WOW I cannot believe they didn't have rifle passed 40M (with your own rifle)...that is SHOCKING with the facility they have there.

[SinistralRifleman]

Last year's IRON MAN had three prop guns in one (blind) stage, and two prop guns in an open stage. Awesome. The key is reliable, accurate is the shooter's problem

Alex

This was the coolest stage I have seen at a 3 Gun match anywhere!

Blind Stage this year

Fort Benning's blind stage in 2009 was also good. All the prop guns they had on those stages were also good over the years.

I really enjoy shooting blind stages and I think it is a better test of practical problem solving than who can walk through a stage a dozen times before shooting it and memorizing everything. The problems I see with blind stages are logistical ones, not with shooting them.

A for pick up guns, they can be interesting if they make sense in the context of the stage. I really have no problem picking up any gun and shooting it as long as everyone has to use the same gun and the sights are not adjusted over the course of the match.

Edited September 12, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[DocMcG]

Everything in moderation

NAIL - HEAD - HAMMER!

The correct amount of ingredients makes the recipe!

(It was too much. Too many blind stages, too many props at one time.)

I bet the Tac Pro crew has learned, like we all would, and will make corrections for May.

Cheers,

Kyle

[Jesse Tischauser]

Those stages are pretty cool! However, they are not blind because they gave you a bunch of heads up before and during the stages as to where you needed to go and what to expect (which is a good thing IMO). You also weren't searching for targets they were right there albeit around corners but not hiding from your view.

So with the little coaching they were giving why not let everyone have a 5 minute walk through for the sake of orientation and time savings. The Iron Man stages are so long as it is shaving some time would never be a bad thing.

...I think it is a better test of practical problem solving than who can walk through a stage a dozen times before shooting it and memorizing everything.

I thought these 3 gun matches were about shooting not solving practical problems? I definately enjoy being challenged to shoot my guns in a different manner than I am used to or even like to.

Edited September 12, 2010 by jtischauser

[GorillaTactical]

Why does everyone always have to have everything so tactical? These are competitions for shooting not tactical training. Sure if you want to test your tactical training by attending a 3 gun match I think that's a good idea. But tactical is ot the name of the game from what I have seen at mathces.

THANK YOU!

[HRider]

One of the things I enjoy about 3gun is the problem solving portion. It is an excercise in efficiency. You are being timed to see how fast you can accurately solve the problem. Blind stages and/or prop guns add an extra level of excitement to the normal adrenaline rush.

Hurley

[ken hebert]

prop guns off the clock, for bonus points only. otherwise I bring MY guns to the match to shoot them.

[SinistralRifleman]

Those stages are pretty cool! However, they are not blind because they gave you a bunch of heads up before and during the stages as to where you needed to go and what to expect (which is a good thing IMO).

Every stage I've shot that was blind always had a safety brief and/or your rules of engagment/op-order. I really don't know how you could run it any other way and not have people go completely outside the bounds of what you want. They're blind in the sense you don't know where all the targets are or in what order you will engage them.

You also weren't searching for targets they were right there albeit around corners but not hiding from your view.

I was in the top 15 out of 140 shooters on that stage in 2009 so I may have made it look more efficient than it was for most people. Many people blew past entire arrays of targets. It didn't look like anything was hidden because you're seeing things from my perspective and I kept my head on a swivel.People get locked into tunnel vision doing this stuff and if its around a corner or a hard angle they might just run past it

I thought these 3 gun matches were about shooting not solving practical problems? I definately enjoy being challenged to shoot my guns in a different manner than I am used to or even like to.

I think it depends who you ask. Many people will argue against stages that are too explicit in telling the shooter what to do on a stage. If we wanted to test shooting skill only all stages would be stationary carnival games with no movement and all the targets in plain view of the shooter. Then it would truly only test engagement speed and accuracy. If we add movement we are testing physical fitness/agility. If we put targets behind walls/barricades, we're testing memorization. If targets are placed in such a way that they can be engaged from different positions for maximum efficiency; then we are testing problem solving. Memorization is also tested the more targets there are, along with the more positions they are engaged from. 3 gun matches as they exist today are really not just shooting skill tests.

Why does everyone always have to have everything so tactical? These are competitions for shooting not tactical training. Sure if you want to test your tactical training by attending a 3 gun match I think that's a good idea. But tactical is ot the name of the game from what I have seen at mathces.

THANK YOU!

People go to matches for different reasons. Matches should advertise what they are, design stages that match their goals, and attract shooters accordingly.

What matches have you been to? Because most of the 3 gun matches I've attended are primarily bullet golf...not anything tactical.

Edited September 13, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[ShootfastRunfaster]

The match that gave birth to this thread is unlike most other 3 gun matches. I have competed in every one of the 20+ times that it has been held, and I will return every spring and fall.

The idea behind this match is to see who is the most well rounded and prepared shooter. By putting out the prop guns and having a high number of blind stages you had to work sort things out beyond which sequence to shoot the targets in. Guns are just tools in a toolbox, and it is the shooter who determines how well they work. The only problem this time is that there were TOO MANY and it was a butt-whipping.

That being said, lets get back to prop guns.

I like'em.......to a certain extent. Make sure they are reliable, and don't require that the entire stage be shot with it. This can lead to equipment failures like what was experienced.

If you are going to use one, use it at the beginning of a stage and not the end. If it fails at the beginning you can stop the shooter before they run through the entire course. If it is at the end, the stage has to be reset and the shooter gets a re-shoot. Use them in the beginning to eliminate this potential problem.

My experience with prop guns at other matches is limited to Rocky Mountain 3-Gun (Hands down the most fun you can have 3-gunning!) and the LaRue matches. Prop guns were mixed in on a stage or two and one of them checked your prowness with both hands (Anyone remember shooting the .22 revolvers with both hands at RM3G a few years ago? Good stuff ).

Like I said, I like'em. I just like'em in small amounts.

Edited September 13, 2010 by ShootfastRunfaster

[Jesse Tischauser]

I thought these 3 gun matches were about shooting not solving practical problems? I definately enjoy being challenged to shoot my guns in a different manner than I am used to or even like to.

I think it depends who you ask. Many people will argue against stages that are too explicit in telling the shooter what to do on a stage. If we wanted to test shooting skill only all stages would be stationary carnival games with no movement and all the targets in plain view of the shooter. Then it would truly only test engagement speed and accuracy. If we add movement we are testing physical fitness/agility. If we put targets behind walls/barricades, we're testing memorization. If targets are placed in such a way that they can be engaged from different positions for maximum efficiency; then we are testing problem solving. Memorization is also tested the more targets there are, along with the more positions they are engaged from. 3 gun matches as they exist today are really not just shooting skill tests.

We are defining practical problem differently. I am all about practical shooting problems. Such ss do I shoot this array with my rifle or pistol. Should I shoot all the targes from one position far away or should I run down range and shoot them up close. Should I go prone or kneeling? I'd it best to shoot left to right or front to back over or under around or through, etc.

The practical non shooting problems like blind stages are the ones I am not to sure about. For instance the stage at iron man when you started out with a bag on your head and your hands tied. Or your locked in the trunk of the car in a leather gimp suit with a little red gage ball in your mouth to start a stage. Or you have to climb this wall or crawl under these pallets to get to the shooting. These things are practical problems that slow you down before you get to the shooting. Are these things really a good thing? I think they are fun to a point. I mean how often do you get to wear gimp suit? My point us if I'm familiar with wearing a gimp suit and riding and escaping from trunks of cars I could beat some of the better shooterssuch as yourself not because of the shooting but I'm a netter escape artist.

I definately think run and gun is part of 3 gun. Initiating stress thru movement and ackward positions is a challenge to your ability to shoot in all situations . I don't think forcing shooters to run 25+ yards is viable even though I could beat at least 80% of people doing that.

Great discussion!

Edited September 13, 2010 by jtischauser