Is the Lee product as bad as they say?

[raz-0]

Well, if you are talking about all Lee products, then it's different.  They make very decent and affordable dies, single stage and turret presses and I've used one of their hand primers for short reloading runs of rifle ammo for years.  I thought you were asking about their progressive press line.

This mirrors my experience. Still have my lee turret next to my LNL.

[ScottyPotty]

I've been using Pro1000 for 9mm and 38/357 and I dont have any problem with them.

Sure, the priming Can be a pain if you dont watch out. Always make sure primers are lined up in the "tube" and keep it clean and indexed.

So if you just pay attention you can have a good press for close to no money and thus be able to spend the rest of your hard earned cash on bullets/powder/primers and isnt that a Whole lot more fun?

The thing that make me think about either get the loadmaster or some other press with four-five stations is that I miss the chance to use a powder check, when loading 9's there's no problem to see if you have powder. But for .38's its a bit tricky.

I've had no problems with missing powder but a friend of mine have had some problems with squibs. If he's just clumsy of if it's the fact he's got the old powder measure I'll leave unsaid (but guessing on the latter ).

I have no problem whatsoever to recommend Lee to my friends

They run great as long as you set it up properly and watch the primers!

This line of thinking (I hear a lot) I often wonder if these same people buy the cheapest guns possible (High point, Ravens) or do they buy nicer higher end guns? I wonder what kind of cars they drive, do they have a rust bucket? or did they buy a nice car? Because that line of thinking takes only the price in the equation. Its all about the price........ pride of ownership or how well it works has nothing to do with anything.

I reload because I like it - I enjoy the process, I can reload to relax and be involved in shooting sports when I cant shoot. Being able to load on machines that have less overall problems make reloading more enjoyable. Just like buying a nice M1 Garand, over an SKS - yes both shoot buy I enjoy the M1 much more.

[MikaelR]

This line of thinking (I hear a lot) I often wonder if these same people buy the cheapest guns possible (High point, Ravens) or do they buy nicer higher end guns? I wonder what kind of cars they drive, do they have a rust bucket? or did they buy a nice car? Because that line of thinking takes only the price in the equation. Its all about the price........ pride of ownership or how well it works has nothing to do with anything.

I reload because I like it - I enjoy the process, I can reload to relax and be involved in shooting sports when I cant shoot. Being able to load on machines that have less overall problems make reloading more enjoyable. Just like buying a nice M1 Garand, over an SKS - yes both shoot buy I enjoy the M1 much more.

I cant answer for anyone else but me.

I'd say nothing if the Lee was crap and nothing but problems while reloading, if it was so much worse then other presses.

BUT for me, Lee offer what I need at a price that'll make me spend more time doing what is the most fun.

"pride of ownership or how well it works has nothing to do with anything"

So you say that you buy a expensive press just to be able to say you have it?

Why would it be more fun to reload with a blue press just because it'll cost 300$ more?

I really enjoy the process of reloading and trying out different loads on my cheap press.

But sure, if you have more money then you can spend, fine go nuts and waste them.

To me I'd rather buy what I need and dont care what colour/brand it is or what other people think about it.

Can I buy something to a lower cost without cutting down on my demands, I'll sure buy it

As to what kind of car, guns, guitars etc I use... I use good quality gear not the most expensive so probably not good enough for some but good enough for me

[Maksim]

Pride of ownership? I dont think I ever consider if my friends reload on a $1,000 dillon or a $100 Lee single stage from 30 years ago. I think pride of ownership is a novelty only based on the fact that you need justification to have it in the absence of value.

I take it everyone who does not drive a $80,000 BMW/Porsche/Benz/Corvette is a cheap bastard?

I own a financial planning company and I work with alot of wealth individuals/business owners etc.

What do I run into?

The nicest, most self secure, affluent individuals live in modest homes, drive modest cars and you would not be able to tell they are well off.

The broke people with big heads.... are those that make massive incomes, always have a total car payment of as much as their mortgage, spend a ton of money monthly on garbage and also have close to nothing to show for it in the bank.

Do some people need to have a fancy car? Sure... I drive a 4 year old car that I bought new as a leftover and got a terrific deal. I will also drive it for at least another 5 years. Then I will pick up whatever is avail at that time, either a leftover model, or used. Let some other fool take the depreciation.

Much the same with firearms... I buy used when I can. I have picked up Browning High Powers for $450, Hk's for close to $100, all in near new condition. The only two firearms I bought new are my Smith Wesson 1911 Pro Series, and my first Smith 22a 22LR (first handgun). Everything else is used, ie, some fool bought it, put it in a safe and now needs to sell it.

I choose to go the Lee route because it does what I need it to do, and gets the same end result as a press 5 times the price. Instead of spending $1,000 on a reloading setup, I spent $500... and now have $500 more to spend on powder/bullets/primers, or I can shoot 25 more matches or better yet, I can go buy another gun. That is pride of ownership.

I really dont understand why people need other's approval for their expensive blue press. lol. No one cares... yes, you may get a few compliments, but no one cares beyond 10 seconds. You need to be happy with your decision.

Seeking other's approval is a sophomoric behavior that ends up only hurting you.

[jmurch]

I've been reloading rifle for around 15 years and I can say with 100% confidence that I reload better than I shoot. I no longer use my Lee anniversary kit but I did for many years and just like most other things it's not better equipment that will get you better reloads.

I prefer single stage for rifle as it lets me handle every case multiple times during the process. Diligence when sizing, trimming, priming, seating, etc. each and every round is what will get you good reloads.

Jeff

[Steve RA]

I agree with the above post, as far as the Lee equipment goes, the progressive presses are not too cool, but, most of Lee's equipment works as well as anyones does and usually costs less.

[Maksim]

+1 to Jeff.

[foilhat]

I use Lee for single stage rifle loading, but Dillon for pistols. No problems to report with the Lee equipment.

[photoracer]

I just got into reloading this year myself. Had to decide on the press question also. Many in my club recommended Dillion, Hornady, etc. I am a tinkerer so adjustments are not alien to me. My caliber of choice I had to load was 9x23mm. While it costs almost the same as 9mm for components the factory ammo is way up there ($40/box +). I save all my expensive factory Win brass and then was offered a lot of new brass by a fellow competitor (1100+ primed Win and 485 Starline). Based on whether I really wanted to reload and price I opted for a Lee Pro 1000 with a set of 9mm dies for $143 from Midway. That way I had only a little invested. I got it working within 24 hours. Yes it has had a few issues but they were easy to work around. I figured out the primer issue and now I can load till the primer feed gets down to less than 10 in the tube before reloading the tray. However having seen a few squibs in matches I tend to be kind of anal so I check each turn of the shell plate to make sure the primer feed lever gets clicked to put one in place and I visually inspect the shell when it gets to the bullet station to see that it has the correct amount of powder. If not I dump it back in the powderfeed, but that only happens maybe once in 200 rounds or so. Key is seems to be making sure the chain has barely any slack at rest. Right now I'm using 5.6g of Unique behind a Rainier Leadfree 125g FMJ RN as a steel load. It was my first attempt at a lower power load (off the 38 Super table) and it worked very well. Since there is no case gauge for 9x23 I use the barrel of my gun for testing every round and mike the length to a preferred 1.255" (although 1.252-1.258 works without any real variation).

I'm sure I could load faster with a better press but I doubt I would get any better results. And since I'm saving close to $25/box over factory ammo it only took me about 300 rounds to break even. It would have taken much more If I'd bought a Dillon but by now I'd be ahead there also.

However if I was reloading massively for both practice and matches I'd have most likely opted for a Dillion. But for maybe 200-300/month for practice and matches the Lee works fine.

[MikaelR]

I just got into reloading this year myself. Had to decide on the press question also. Many in my club recommended Dillion, Hornady, etc. I am a tinkerer so adjustments are not alien to me. My caliber of choice I had to load was 9x23mm. While it costs almost the same as 9mm for components the factory ammo is way up there ($40/box +). I save all my expensive factory Win brass and then was offered a lot of new brass by a fellow competitor (1100+ primed Win and 485 Starline). Based on whether I really wanted to reload and price I opted for a Lee Pro 1000 with a set of 9mm dies for $143 from Midway. That way I had only a little invested. I got it working within 24 hours. Yes it has had a few issues but they were easy to work around. I figured out the primer issue and now I can load till the primer feed gets down to less than 10 in the tube before reloading the tray. However having seen a few squibs in matches I tend to be kind of anal so I check each turn of the shell plate to make sure the primer feed lever gets clicked to put one in place and I visually inspect the shell when it gets to the bullet station to see that it has the correct amount of powder. If not I dump it back in the powderfeed, but that only happens maybe once in 200 rounds or so. Key is seems to be making sure the chain has barely any slack at rest. Right now I'm using 5.6g of Unique behind a Rainier Leadfree 125g FMJ RN as a steel load. It was my first attempt at a lower power load (off the 38 Super table) and it worked very well. Since there is no case gauge for 9x23 I use the barrel of my gun for testing every round and mike the length to a preferred 1.255" (although 1.252-1.258 works without any real variation).

I'm sure I could load faster with a better press but I doubt I would get any better results. And since I'm saving close to $25/box over factory ammo it only took me about 300 rounds to break even. It would have taken much more If I'd bought a Dillon but by now I'd be ahead there also.

However if I was reloading massively for both practice and matches I'd have most likely opted for a Dillion. But for maybe 200-300/month for practice and matches the Lee works fine.

If you have problem with one in 200, I'd say there is something wrong.

Try even more tension on the chain, when I've got mine in bottom position, the chain has rather much tension on it. And thats why the little spring is such a "godsend", earlier the chain broke alot, but with the spring it's possible to tighten it some more (always a good idea to keep a spare chain or thwo though)

I do as you and visually check each case before seating a bullet and I havent seen a case without or just a little powder for as long as I can remember on my pro1000

[noylj]

The biggest problem with Lee products are the very terse instructions. However, everything they have written is important. You must do what they say and never assume that you either don't need to read the instructions or think that a step is unimportant or simply too boring to do.

The problem I have with the Pro 1000, if I considered buying one, is that it is only a 3-hole. Before I left the single-stage presses about 30 years ago, I waited for a 5-station press. I was always happy with my Hornady and consider the L-N-L to be nearly perfect (but, it isn't a 1050, so I now have 3 1050s and my son has my L-N-L).

The Perfect Powder Measure looks like a POS, but if you follow the directions, it performs perfectly. I have one for charging my .223 rounds (a progressive is not the ideal press for fiddling with rifle cases). I have to disassemble and adjust tension if I use a very fine grain powder.

What Lee needs to do is hire a pro to write their instruction pamphlets. Even the LoadMaster (?) instructions are too brief and the photos aren't clear enough. However, if you follow the instructions, go slow, disassemble plastic parts and remove any flashing or burrs and chamfer any sharp edges, and never force anything, you can have a press that works quite well. However, you are not paying for the over-building of the other presses and you will find things that need adjustment.

However, do you expect a $230 press to be the equal of a $386 Hornady in ease of use or of a $545 Dillon 650? For the money saved, you will have to accept that you will need to fiddle a bit more and watch things a bit more carefully.

Also, for all progressive presses, cleanliness is a requirement of proper function.

[sonicslam]

Here is the definative answer to the issue of Lee product reliability. Take this for gospel.

Do NOT buy a Lee progressive if you:

1. Have zero mechanical inclination.

2. Can't follow instructions.

3. Don't have a basic understanding of production fitment and tolerance stackup.

4. You are unwilling to remachine your press to compensate for PISS POOR machining and QC.

Other than that, the Load Master should (and will) load 5-600 rounds/hour with zero squibs and zero flipped primers. It is my not so humble opinion that Lee's number 1 problem is the guy running the show. He allows machining tolerances that a high school student would fail with to go out his door. He also has a problem with materiel selection. There is nothing wrong with plastic primer feeder parts and the Pro Disk powder measure is top notch. The problem is (and if someone would please direct this to BE, maybe he could chime in with what Dillon does in this area) Lee uses a piece of shit tube for the ram, and then the clearance can be anywhere from .010-.015 inch. If you understand machining there is absolutely ZERO excuse for this (see PISS POOR above). They control this "slop" with the linkage. Also, there is excess clearance in the linkage that allows the shell holder/carriage rotate on its axis, as far as .080!!! So , now you have all this excess movement, the timing gets off for the primer and it gets flipped sideways, which throws the timing off even more, and jams up the primer feed system, and you crash a couple of $1.00 parts. It's not that they are plastic...its PP machining. I called Hornady (didn't have time to call Dillon, maybe BE will fill in the blanks) and they said they use D.O.M. tubing for the ram (far superior to the EW seamed crap Lee uses) and the ram clearance is .002, -.0005, +.002. So, clearance would be .0015 minimum, to .004 max. Lee can't say that.

So that is the issue. Lee could spend (literally) a few dollars more per press (on material) and about $10.00/ hour more for machinists that can hold a tolerance and the LM would run like a striped assed ape. John Lee won't do it. He could sell a fully loaded progressive for $310.00 (instead of the $210.00 I paid) fix HIS issues and sell LM's up the wazoo. They would work, every damn time.

Just my unbiased .02

Sonic S.

Edited October 10, 2010 by sonicslam

[photoracer]

As a followup I can say that the Lee Pro 1000 seems to be working fine. No powder issues, no primer issues I can't handle, and no bullet seating issues. A friend gave me an old Lee single stage press which I used to mount a Lee crimp die so I could manage a decent crimp on the load. However I eventually got the Lee seating die to preduce a good roll crimp and now the single stage is just sitting there. So I bought a set of Lee .41 MAG dies and I'm going to use the single stage to load enough .41 Rem. Magnum for a few revolver matches and hunting.

[metalguy]

I have the Lee progressive 1000, and issues with it have been mainly caused by operator error. I do not crimp my rounds on the pro 1000, I use my single stage, and the Lee factory crimp die to put a nice even crimp on every round. For the money, a better press has yet to be made, IMO.

Metalguy

[G-ManBart]

Lee presses are a great bang for the buck. Not going to get into the Blue debate... but if I was going to shell out that kind of money I would get the Hornady lnl. I dont want to pay for the warranty for the guys after me.

I have a Lee Classic Turret and a Lee Pro 1000.

For rifle, the Classic Turret is hard to beat. for pistol, yes I will agree, the Lee Pro has a junk primer system. lol

So what I do now is Resize, deprime, prime on the classic turret, then do the rest, powder, bullet seat, factory crimp on the Pro.

See, that's just the thing....there won't be a guy after you. I still have the original SDB I got in 1991 or 1992. My father sent it to me as a gift (so I would study more, and reload less) after endless problems with our Lee Pro 1000. It's loaded a couple hundred K so far, with no end in sight. I've added a 1050, but that's mostly just to save time.

Using both a turret and a Pro to load ammo?

[G-ManBart]

I have the Lee progressive 1000, and issues with it have been mainly caused by operator error. I do not crimp my rounds on the pro 1000, I use my single stage, and the Lee factory crimp die to put a nice even crimp on every round. For the money, a better press has yet to be made, IMO.

Metalguy

And what else have you used?

[sonicslam]

As a followup I can say that the Lee Pro 1000 seems to be working fine. No powder issues, no primer issues I can't handle, and no bullet seating issues. A friend gave me an old Lee single stage press which I used to mount a Lee crimp die so I could manage a decent crimp on the load. However I eventually got the Lee seating die to preduce a good roll crimp and now the single stage is just sitting there. So I bought a set of Lee .41 MAG dies and I'm going to use the single stage to load enough .41 Rem. Magnum for a few revolver matches and hunting.

Again, here is the issue. You say "no primer issues I can't handle". In how many rounds? I have 7500 rounds through my LnL AP and ZERO primer issues.

Lee guys can't see the forest for the trees. I'll help you out. When you have "issues" like Lee does, that manifest themselves in the priming system, you ASSume that all progressive relaoders are the same. They are NOT. Dillon does NOT have primer feed issues like Lee. Hornady does NOT have primer feed issues Like Lee.

Jonh Lee should be ashamed to let a product go to market like he has. One guy at loadmastervideos.com did say a truth. He said "Lee KNOWS what is wrong with the LoadMaster (and I would add the Pro 1000 as well, which Kempf's almost refuses to sell BTW) but if John offered a retro fix for the presses he would go bankrupt". EXACTLY CORRECT. Companies that produce piss poor products deserve to go broke. Don't prop up a bad business.

[roadapple]

I have many of Lee's products, and they have worked quite well. Lee exhibits inginuity in their products. That said, if you want consistancy; same results per same action, it is hard to find any of Lee's more progressive equipment that is up to the task. Lee's Single stage (O-Ring) presses seem to work fine, as do their classic cast turret units. Consistancy = accuracy. Best bet here is Dillon, Hornady, Forster, RCBS, Redding. You may buy a tool that is inexpensive, and needs to be replaced frequently, or you can buy a tool at a higher price, realizing it is a lifetime investment, and never need to replace it. Look for the tool that gives you consistency. You will be happy with it twice: The day you bought it, and the day you realize you will not need to replace it. Happy re-loading / hand loading! Stay safe!

[Poppa Bear]

Having read this thread I will say this, I currently use a Lee Classic Turret. I am a tinkerer so I spent some time getting everything set up just right and I can easily crank out 100+ rounds an hour without any problems. Because I only shoot about 4 to 500 rounds a month this works well for me.

If or more likely when I start to shoot 600 to 1,000+ rounds a month I will likely pick up a 650.

WHY??

Because everything is a trade off. I do not need a 650 or a 1050 just to load 400 rounds a month. When I start shooting 800 a month I will have to much time invested in reloading on a LCT. Time that could be spent at the range shooting. Until I reach that stage though I will continue to use my LCT.

Will I ever get rid of the LCT? No it is probably one of the best presses out there for low volume reloading, especially if you want to make each step as exacting as possible without having to change out dies for each step.

[BigBets]

I will stick with Dillons for progressive work but have nothing bad to say about my lee classic cast single stage..drops old primers down a tube and runs as smooth as every other single stage I have used except the Forster COAX...now thats a single stage

Bets

[photog]

I bought a lee Pro1k because I am a mechanic and I thought I could handle any problems that it threw at me.

It will not prime cases. Period. No matter what I do to it, it will prime maybe 10 before it jams. It will not keep a consistent index. I had to modify the powder drop (but it runs great now) by adding a solid rod to the return instead of the chain. I now use it to drop powder and seat the bullet. My opinion is that it is a piece of poop. I have followed the instructions. I have to clean it all the time because f the "powder jump" problem that all Pro1k's have. Once I gave up on thinking it was a progressive press, I sleep better at night. I now single stage the sizing, hand prime and THEN run it through the Pro1k.

Lee dies are a great deal, I have 9, 40, 45 and 223 and they all are great. I have a Lee single stage press, and its nice for the 25 bucks I paid for it. The lee scale I have is nice, and reads the same as my RCBS scale. But the PRO1000 is not totally functional, and never has been. I've been a mechanic since I was 15 and currently design electrical systems for a utility, so yes I am familiar with how things work (at least should work), and the pro1000 has bested me.

[M-Bear]

I had so much trouble with my lee that I bought 15 years ago that I gave up on reloading. After a couple of years a friend got me up and going again on a rockchucker. Four years ago I bought a 550. But the lee left such a bad taste in my mouth that I probably still wouldn't be reloading if my friend hadn't drug me back into it. Nowadays I enjoy reloading with quality equipment.

[CocoBolo]

I started reloading with Lee Dies. I had heard that they were good. I went with the LNL press from Hornady, so I know nothing about thier presses, or power measures. When I won a 45 I bought Hornady Die, once I loaded a couple thousand rounds using the Hornady Die, I sold all of the Lee Dies I had and replaced them with Hornady, much easier to load. I also got rid of the EGW U-dies. I also have acquired and used Dillon Dies and they are very good equal to the Hornady. In .223 I broke my Lee Die and a friend gave me a Redding Sizing Die, wow what a difference, much better. I can applaud the Decapping Pin from Lee its tough, but this Gorilla even broke a couple of those.

I think of the Reloader as a tool, I try to buy good tools that last and work.

[kcbrown]

My first real press (the Lee Thighmaster does not count as a "real" press ) was a Dillon 650, in 9mm. I still have it, of course. While it went through teething problems just as you'd expect any new mechanical device to go through, it has proven itself to be very reliable and very smooth.

I got a Lee Classic Turret because I wanted to have something I could use to work up loads easily with so that I wouldn't have to readjust the 650. It works very, very nicely for that.

But I decided I wanted to shoot an additional caliber (.40 S&W) in quantity and I didn't want to go through the hassle of changing the caliber on the 650 whenever I wanted to produce ammunition of the caliber that it wasn't set up for. I also decided I didn't want to spend the kind of money a 650 commands, but I wanted the basic capabilities it provides. I also thought it might be a fun challenge to get one of Lee's progressives operating reliably, since they have such a dismal reputation.

So I picked up a Lee Pro 1000 in 9mm, figuring that the more demanding .40 S&W cartridge could be dealt with better on the Dillon.

It took some work, but I did manage to get the Pro 1000 to the point where it is reliable. The primer feed, oddly enough, was what gave me the fewest problems, probably because I studied the system at length initially and am using plated primers (CCI 500s). I had some initial problems with the case feeder and with the indexing, both of which I seem to have figured out.

Well, having a Lee progressive press that's running reliably simply won't do at all!

So I got a reconditioned Loadmaster from Lee for $180, also in 9mm. This press has been a little more of a challenge and I don't have enough rounds through it yet in its current configuration to know how reliable it will wind up being, but I expect it to be quite reliable now. The priming system was occasionally tipping primers (about once every 100 rounds) and I suspect I figured out why (and subsequently fixed it. I believe two things contributed to it, the first being that the indexing rod length was adjusted such that on one one of the 5 positions of the shellplate, there was a slight amount of play in the shellplate, and the second being that the chamfer on the underside of the slots in the shellplate wasn't sufficiently aggressive). In the course of troubleshooting and fixing that issue, I ordered a second shellplate (among other things) from Lee, since I was modifying the shellplate and wanted a replacement handy if I screwed up. Well, seems Lee has made a design change to the shellplate that should improve reliability considerably -- it now has holes through which the primer is inserted instead of slots, so as long as the case is aligned within the shellplate properly the primer should go in properly.

My opinion of the Lee stuff is that it requires more mechanical aptitude and patience than does the Dillon stuff. The quality control of the parts isn't nearly as good, and the end result is that you may wind up with a press that needs to have a few parts replaced, and even if all the parts are fine it is almost certain that you will need to perform some adjustments to fine tune the press. But if you fully understand the mechanisms within the press enough to know which parts can cause any given issue, you should be able to get it to operate reliably.

I think the bottom line is that the Lees make excellent second progressives, particularly if they're not mission critical. Again, though, that's only if you have enough mechanical inclination and patience to work each problem through to its root cause.

[Bear23]

for single stage press reloading. any of the major brands work well, for progressives, use the dillon.

I started off with the lee loadmaster then the 1000. I had nothing but problems, i couldn't go more that 20 rounds without something screwing up. I gave both presses away and bought a 650.

On the Lee, the primer feeding system is lousy and cheap, Many vital parts are plastic that when deformed are unusable.. And you have to pay to have those parts replaced,

I hate wasting money on crap that doesn't work, then having to spend more money in the end to get a good product. I have not regretted buying any of my dillons, 550 650 and 1050. Out of those, the 1050 was the most finicky, I lost the index bar off the backside and the thing works wonderful.