Rifle/Pistol Matches

[SinistralRifleman]

The USPSA classification system thread and discussion of marketing got me thinking about this...

The number one reason people tell me they don't want to shoot 3 Gun is because they don't have/don't want to buy a shotgun just for shooting a game. I have heard this more and more over the past 5 years.

There are 3 major things contributing to this:

1) We have a large pool of people coming back from the war, who have bought carbines similar to the ones they were issued, and want an outlet to practice the martial skills they learned and used. Very few of these people actually used shotguns, and those who did will admit their limited utility.

2) The focus in commercial defensive/tactical shooting schools is entirely geared around rifles and handguns now, there aren't many tactical shotgun classes taught anymore by comparison.

3) Expense: one less gun makes it that much more affordable to compete in both initial equipment investment and ammunition costs.

I think its time for local groups to start pushing Rifle/Pistol matches, and perhaps a national level match with just these two firearm types.

The American Confederation of Tactical Shooters Arizona contingent runs monthly matches with consistently good turn outs for local level events. It is strictly a rifle/pistol match, with many of the stages combining physical challenge elements, and the stages are often based around real world incidents. The demographic of shooters at that event is different than most of the other matches I attend; the mean age is younger, and more active duty military, veterans, and Law Enforcement attend it. There are also more people attending who have paid for commercial training that want a monthly event to keep their skills sharp.

Whether it is tactically based or more sport oriented I think there is a market for Rifle/Pistol matches.

Edited August 17, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Jesse Tischauser]

Well said! I hear the same thing from guys here in OKC. Every tactical red neck has a glock or 1911 and an AR15 but most only have the shotgun that is setup for bird and turkey hunting or skeet/trap/clays.

Plus most guys don't want to spend 40+ hours minimum practicing their shotgun reloads to be less than terrible at it.

I'd travel for a 2 gun even though the shotgun portion of 3 gun is the most fun.

[dcloudy777]

Man, that's a tough one. The shotgun is the probably the biggest hurdle for a budding 3-gunner. I have a couple of opinions as to why that is (and they are just opinions):

The typical "3-gun shotgun" is more specialized, more unlike the "mainstream" shotgun than is the typical 3-gun pistol or rifle. Most pistols used are pretty close to stock, even the rifles used aren't too far from "real-world" configurations, or at least you could say that a "plain-jane" AR type rifle with decent optics wouldn't be at too terrible a disadvantage. This really can't be said for the shotgun. High capacity semiauto rifles are becoming pretty prevalent here in the US, but the same can't really be said for high-cap semiauto shotguns.

The same argument can be applied to the skill-set needed to run the shotgun as well. The shotgun is (again, my opinion) the toughest weapon system by far to learn how to use well. On top of that, the learning curve is steep. An experienced but casual shooter will be beaten by the seasoned 3-gunner with the pistol and rifle, but will be thoroughly (and somewhat embarrassingly) trounced by the the seasoned 3-gunner with the shotgun. (Ask me how I know this )

Now, on the other hand, adding shotguns to a match is much easier for the people running the match than adding the rifle. Some steel and clays can turn practically any good pistol match venue into a good shotgun match venue. A rifle match needs at least a little distance to be worthwhile, and scoring becomes either very slow (walking out to score paper), or expensive (flash targets, etc.). So shotgun matches are easier to put on than rifle matches, but harder to gt people to come shoot. Ironic.... don't you think?

The OP seems to want to grow multigun at the local club level, which I think is a great idea. I like the "outlaw match" concept that defines multi-gun, and I don't think the major matches should make any major rule changes. However, the "loose set of guidelines" that makes MG so great doesn't really lend itself to attracting local new shooters to small club matches. I think a club that wanted to start down the multi-gun path should probably gear its rules toward the entry-level shooters, not the guys that already shoot multigun (we'll come shoot the matches anyway, right?). Production or Single-Stack legal pistols, no magnified optics and 30rd mags for rifles. Stretch out to the ends of pistol bays and use small targets, you can still make things challenging.

DanO

[gerritm]

I am new at competetive shooting and 3-gun in particular, but it has become my favorite next to USPSA just for all the reason everyone has stated and the challenge of getting proficient at each of the weapons. Why not a class/division for the average shotgun whether it is auto or pump. I am a bird hunter and most shotguns are plugged. Why not just let people remove the plug and run what you brung. So you have to reload more. Everybody has a bird, deer or turkey gun. A 5 shot mag is not going to compete with a 10 shot open shotgun with an optic, just like a single stack 45 or a 6 shot revolver won't compete with a unlimited open gun. Every gun and division has it's challenges. I love to watch the revolver guys, but it is not something I could shoot. That is how I got started, took my bird/trap gun and modified it so I can shoot tactical. Probably not a great suggestion, but we have all types of shooters and guns at our matches. Bring in the beginners and let them have fun.

[SinistralRifleman]

Some examples of comments in relation to this recently on a forum in reference to multigun:

Originally Posted By Shooter1:

You already know I'd rather shoot rifle and pistol. I'm pretty "Meh," about shotgun.

Originally Posted By Shooter2:

...I too would love a pistol / rifle tactical match...

Originally Posted By Shooter3:

I don't even own a Shotgun that'd I'd compete with. Only ARs and Pistols.

It's not the type of shotguns people have, its that they don't own them, and even if they do, its not their "go to" gun.

jtischauser got it right with "Every tactical red neck has a glock or 1911 and an AR15..."

Edited August 20, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Bryan 45]

I would enjoy a good rifle/pistol match, but I think I would like rifle/shotgun even more.

Russell, do the ACTS matches even the round count out between p and r?

[Jesse Tischauser]

I would enjoy a good rifle/pistol match, but I think I would like rifle/shotgun even more.

+1 but we gotta think about the new shooters

[SinistralRifleman]

Russell, do the ACTS matches even the round count out between p and r?

It is usually 2/3 rifle, 1/3 pistol, but they mix it up.

You can see a lot of stages on my channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SinistralRifleman

Here's Kelly Neal's Blogs about the match:

http://kellynealsblog.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/az-acts-match-april-2010/

http://kellynealsblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/acts-match-nov-09-stage-4/

http://kellynealsblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/acts-match-nov-09-stage-2/

[Bryan 45]

I like that mix, Russell. Nothing worse than a 3 gun match that leans HEAVILY on pistol.

Well, actually there are a lot of things worse.....

[Mike P]

Man, that's a tough one. The shotgun is the probably the biggest hurdle for a budding 3-gunner. I have a couple of opinions as to why that is (and they are just opinions):

The typical "3-gun shotgun" is more specialized, more unlike the "mainstream" shotgun than is the typical 3-gun pistol or rifle. Most pistols used are pretty close to stock, even the rifles used aren't too far from "real-world" configurations, or at least you could say that a "plain-jane" AR type rifle with decent optics wouldn't be at too terrible a disadvantage. This really can't be said for the shotgun. High capacity semiauto rifles are becoming pretty prevalent here in the US, but the same can't really be said for high-cap semiauto shotguns.

The same argument can be applied to the skill-set needed to run the shotgun as well. The shotgun is (again, my opinion) the toughest weapon system by far to learn how to use well. On top of that, the learning curve is steep. An experienced but casual shooter will be beaten by the seasoned 3-gunner with the pistol and rifle, but will be thoroughly (and somewhat embarrassingly) trounced by the the seasoned 3-gunner with the shotgun. (Ask me how I know this )

Now, on the other hand, adding shotguns to a match is much easier for the people running the match than adding the rifle. Some steel and clays can turn practically any good pistol match venue into a good shotgun match venue. A rifle match needs at least a little distance to be worthwhile, and scoring becomes either very slow (walking out to score paper), or expensive (flash targets, etc.). So shotgun matches are easier to put on than rifle matches, but harder to gt people to come shoot. Ironic.... don't you think?

The OP seems to want to grow multigun at the local club level, which I think is a great idea. I like the "outlaw match" concept that defines multi-gun, and I don't think the major matches should make any major rule changes. However, the "loose set of guidelines" that makes MG so great doesn't really lend itself to attracting local new shooters to small club matches. I think a club that wanted to start down the multi-gun path should probably gear its rules toward the entry-level shooters, not the guys that already shoot multigun (we'll come shoot the matches anyway, right?). Production or Single-Stack legal pistols, no magnified optics and 30rd mags for rifles. Stretch out to the ends of pistol bays and use small targets, you can still make things challenging.

DanO

Why not give it a try at Manchester. I'll help. If hell DOES freeze over maybe we can get Alan too.

[abn-rgr]

I think its a good idea even though shotgun is my favorite of the three guns. You would definitely pick up new shooters. That being said, I always bring my back up Benelli (havent had to use it yet) to matches for guys to borrow.

[boomfab]

I understand where the OP is coming from.

However, you walk a fine line on catering to noobs....

-Can't use a shotgun because it's tough to get good at. God forbid a stage where slugs are involved.

-Can't have rifle past 200 yards (or 100, or 50) because billy bob can't hit stuff that far out. Might get hurt feelings.

-Can't have handgun steel past 15 yards because it take trigger control. Not simple like shooting paper at 2 yards.

I think people that truly get into 3-gun, stick with it, and take it seriously have a certain personality type. They like it because it is a challenge. Not because it's easy to roll into. The "hold my hand" types seem to swarm to IDPA.

[kellyn]

Not a bad idea Russell. Of course, I would like to see some more shotgun-only and rifle-only matches too. I know of one potential major match that MAY do this (rifle/pistol only). So stay tuned.

I agree with the observations about the mythical average new shooter having some sort of AR and 9mm/.40 pistol and not having a shotgun that is even close to being competitive so having a rifle/pistol only match may generate some interest. I've also seen many a new budding three gunner show up with his kewl killer shotgun and get bumped into open which seems to be akin of challenging their sexual/racial/ethnic/religious background.

As for the ACTS matches, they bring in a completely different crowd from normal 3 gun so clearly they are tapping into something that AZ's excellent 3 gun matches are not. It seems that many 3 gunners will compete in ACTS but many ACTS shooters won't compete in 3 gun. Is it because 3 gun requires another gun? Or is 3 gun not tacticool enough? I don't know.

I don't believe that the shotgun is the most diffcult of the 3 guns to master (although it is my personal weakest). I think it is the easiest of the 3 as the shooting portion of the equation is by far the easiest. The gun manipulation part of the equation (read loading) is a challenge but it is cheap to learn. IMHO it is far easier to learn loading a shotgun than it is to clean the Bianchi plates with a pistol or quickly and reliably hit 2-300 yard plates with a rifle.

[SinistralRifleman]

I understand where the OP is coming from.

However, you walk a fine line on catering to noobs....

The market I am talking about isn't n00bs to shooting, or using guns dynamically, they are only n00bs to competition. Over 1 million troops have served in Iraq/Afghanistan for example, some of them came home and bought M4 Clones because they wanted something like their service weapon. It hasn't been uncommon for a whole group of National Guard/Reservists to have manufacturers and dealers set up group buys for their units.

It has nothing to do with the shotgun being hard to use/master; its simply that they don't see the value in doing so. More people are considering rifles to be their primary defensive use long gun than a shotgun; whether they are citizens, veterans, cops, or soldiers. For the people who do use shotguns for defensive purposes, 3 gun stages are typically outside the practical role of the gun; you will shoot the gun empty and go to your handgun.

If I didn't shoot 3 gun, I probably never would have messed around with shotguns as much as I have. The long gun I keep in the trunk/ready at home is a rifle, not a shotgun.

As for the ACTS matches, they bring in a completely different crowd from normal 3 gun so clearly they are tapping into something that AZ's excellent 3 gun matches are not. It seems that many 3 gunners will compete in ACTS but many ACTS shooters won't compete in 3 gun. Is it because 3 gun requires another gun? Or is 3 gun not tacticool enough? I don't know.

ACTS gets people who simply don't want to shoot shotgun, it is one reason many of the people there go. I think the other reason is marketing and stage design incorporating physical challenges.

Edited August 20, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[StealthyBlagga]

I'd go a step further and advocate one-gun only matches - just rifle or just shotgun (we have lots of "just pistol" already of course). Less equipment to schlep, lower cost of entry, not constantly changing wardrobe etc. However, the last time I spoke in favor of this, the glitterati here drowned me out with cries of "booooooorrriiiiinnnggggg".

Edited August 20, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[SinistralRifleman]

I'd go a step further and advocate one-gun only matches - just rifle or just shotgun (we have lots of "just pistol" already of course). Less equipment to schlep, lower cost of entry, not constantly changing wardrobe etc. However, the last time I spoke in favor of this, the glitterati here drowned me out with cires of "booooooorrriiiiinnnggggg".

You are right, those are even more new shooter friendly. We get A LOT of new shooters at the Independence Day Action Rifle Match every year, we also got a lot of new shooters at the Halloween Shotgun Match last year too. If I can consistently fill up local matches with 50-60 people, I think there has to be a market for this stuff.

[Graham Smith]

My first reaction was to generally agree with the concept general idea here, the shotgun seems a bit like the old game of "which one does not belong with the rest". But the more I think about it, I'm not so sure. With the increased interest in sporting clays, I could almost make the argument for trying out pistol/shotgun matches. I'm thinking of one place in particular where they would allow people to move about shooting a shotgun and could probably be convinced to allow people with pistols to do the same, but there's no way they are going to allow anyone with a rifle to shoot from anywhere but a fixed location at fixed targets, and even then they will argue about it - they are too afraid of a shot going over a berm in the wrong direction.

[tk4]

I'd go a step further and advocate one-gun only matches - just rifle or just shotgun (we have lots of "just pistol" already of course). Less equipment to schlep, lower cost of entry, not constantly changing wardrobe etc. However, the last time I spoke in favor of this, the glitterati here drowned me out with cries of "booooooorrriiiiinnnggggg".

I am a pistol shooter, but I would love to see a couple rifle only matches in the Midwest. I thought about trying 3-gun, but every match I checked into was a 2day format plus stick around a 3rd day for the prize table. I just can't justify being away from the family the entire weekend.

[GorillaTactical]

I think people that truly get into 3-gun, stick with it, and take it seriously have a certain personality type. They like it because it is a challenge. Not because it's easy to roll into.

I think what the OP is getting at is that we should have some sort of entry level/intermediate step between pistol only and 3 gun....I love shotgun, it's my favorite part of the game, but I can see the importance of entry level matches with only 2 guns...Several friends I shot with at our first ever match just got turned off with the HUGE set of shooting skills you have to learn...they could shoot some stuff ok, but couldn't ever spend the $ or time to master (get proficient ) with it all....I think this is a major point it boils down too as well....$ spent by new shooters to get into the game...if we can lower that curve, MANY more shooters will be playing, especially more young guys like myself.

[MarkCO]

I think I agree with Kelly and Sinistral. However, there are so many dynamics to consider. Locally, I see a lot of shooters start in one of the competitions that is fairly newbie (to shooting or to competition) friendly like GSSF, IDPA or Trap. Some end up in silhouette or High Power or maybe bullseye, while others stick with that first form of competition. Others end up in action sports like USPSA, 3-gun or Sporting Clays even. The recent surge of 3 gun popularity has brought in a lot of folks, that, several years from now, will have left, but they have a voice that is now being heard and catered to at some matches. The 3 gun matches have morphed and will continue to do so, collectively or individually, based on individual dogmatism of the MDs and/or customer demand. 3 gun, more than ANY other sport, caters to the demands of the customer due to the variety and huge number of very high quality large matches. Locally, the 3 gun matches have the LOWEST attendance of any of the practical matches. The rifle and pistol only matches are much better attended, and there are a lot more of them. I beleive there are 3 very important reasons, mostly from comments offered to me at some of the larger matches by the rank and file competitor.

1. Economy: A single gun match is probably half the overall cost of a 3 gun match. This is NOT a cheap sport and there are a LOT of rank and file shooters who save all year for those 1, 2, or 3 majors and they can't afford the locals. Yep, maybe it is only $30 more to shoot a local 3 gun, but that is about $400 over the year.

2. Time: 3 gun matches are more complex to set-up, take more time to tear down and the courses are longer. On a monthly basis a full day at the range for 1 three gun match is harder to swing than 2 half days for two single gun matches.

3. Proficiency: Focusing on one platform at a time provides better results overall.

The rank and file shooter, for the most part is there to have fun. The tractor on a semi is cool, but it is worthless without the 54 foot trailer! We all KNOW that getting juniors and women into the shooting sports is necessary for long term growth, and the improvements in these areas have been huge. As competitive shooters, we must realize that we stand at a very important time in American history. With "practical" shooting being fairly young as a sport, and the tremendous growth potential that is out there just waiting, I beleive anything we can do to increase participation at the local level benefits us all. More rifle and shotgun 1 gun matches and more 2 gun matches are essential to this end.

Does that match with my "personal" preference? No, but it will end up making my personal preference matches better and enduring long term.

[jbullgpd]

I'd go a step further and advocate one-gun only matches - just rifle or just shotgun (we have lots of "just pistol" already of course). Less equipment to schlep, lower cost of entry, not constantly changing wardrobe etc. However, the last time I spoke in favor of this, the glitterati here drowned me out with cries of "booooooorrriiiiinnnggggg".

It was a couple years ago now but I set up the Cactus League Shotgun Match in Phx and it had a good turn out for a first time match, and other matches going on the same weekend. It wasn't a perfect match but we learned a few things and had some fun shooting it for sure. I moved to Montana the following year and so died the match I believe but I think there is a market for single gun matches, especially for local matches since they are easier to set up for a local club.

[mpeltier]

It may be that the attendance to such a match (local match) would be better by region. At our local club we have rifle only, Pistol only, Shotgun only, 2-gun, and 3-gun matches. With the exception of the 3-gun matches (held quarterly) all other matches are help on a monthly basis. The draw by attendance of most attended to least is in this order:

Rifle (avg 30)

3-gun (avg 21)

pistol only/2-gun (tie) (avg 15)

shotgun only (avg 12)

Of special note is our two gun is a shotgun/pistol. It may very well be that if it were rifle/pistol attendance would be better. But it is interesting that our 3-gun matches have better attendance than all but rifle only.

[Aglifter]

I don't know that the presence of a shotgun is really the problem - even if tuned Saigas, etc didn't exist, they will still loose, badly, to the GMs, etc. Some people can't seem to handle the idea that they can't shoot like a John Woo Action hero. No matter their talent/equipment when they first start, they will do poorly compared to the people who are competitive.

[Blockhead]

We had great success last May with a 2-Gun Rifle(carbine)/Pistol Match. We had 32 shooters. It was the first multigun match for 14 of them. We'll be doing another one on October 31. I'm a litle worried that we might get more customers than we can handle.

We're going to stick with the 3-Gun format on our monthly club matches because many of our guys need to keep their Shotgun skills honed for FB3G, SMM3G, etc... Maybe there's enough demand out there to run one of each every month? I'd especially like to hear feedback from the CA and AZ shooters on that question.

[DanielW]

There are 3 major things contributing to this:

1) We have a large pool of people coming back from the war, who have bought carbines similar to the ones they were issued, and want an outlet to practice the martial skills they learned and used. Very few of these people actually used shotguns, and those who did will admit their limited utility.

Interesting thread. I fell completely into this category. When I recently started looking at competition shooting, I found there were plenty of pistol matches locally, a carbine/rifle match, and a couple of 3 gun matches. For quite a time, I thought "Wouldn't it be nice if there was a rifle/pistol match?"

I only recently bought a shotgun, having pretty much never laid hands on one before - and I did so purely so I could enter the 3 gun matches....I have to admit, not particularly because I saw myself as a big shotgun fan - more because I saw it as a way to increase my odds of finding the time to make it to a match. That said - I now think shotgun is great, really enjoy shooting it and I seem to be taking to it well! So being "forced" to get one was actually a very good thing for me.....but I should imagine there are plenty of others out there who just can't justify getting one only to use at matches.

Mpeltier - seeing your location, I'm guessing you are referring to the matches at Hernando? In that case, you are absolutely bang on with your 2 gun statement - When I first saw an ad for that match, I thought "That looks great, can use my rifle and pistol"....then saw it was shotgun/pistol and at the time, it obviously put me off (but now I've got a shotty, I will have to try to get up there! .