Does USPSA need a classification system for multi-gun?

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think this thread could be broken down into several other sub discussions.

1. How does USPSA get more participation in 3 gun?

We have been shooting rifle only matches as an alternative to 3 gun here in OKC. They require much less setup, tear down, gear, ammo, cost, etc and they are almost as much fun as 3 gun. USSA holds a ProAm style shotgun match every month immediately following their pistol ProAm match every month.

Why doesn't the USPSA focus on rifle or shotgun only matches at the local level. It's a lot easier to get new shooters out when it's less complicated. After a couple rifle matches and the regular pistol stuff it would seem like the shooting a full on 3 gun match would be the next step.

IPSC does a lot of shotgun or rifle only matches in Europe and from what Trapr and Kurt tell me they are hugely popular over there. USPSA is promoting the heck out if steel challenge, why not individual long gun matches?

Speaking of steel challenge, why isn't there a classification there?

2. Since USPSA uses your pistol classification in 3 gun (which everyone agrees is useless) how could you get a more realistic classification for the long guns?

It would be easy to add a few short course type speed classifiers for shotgun and rifle to the big pistol book of classifiers and there you have a classification system for all 3 guns that could be used for 3 gun.

Edited August 27, 2010 by jtischauser

[mpeltier]

you still feel that a classification is what USPSA needs for GROWTH!!!

Trapr

There in lies the rub.

There seems to be two perspectives to this discussion.

1) How to get new shooters into 3-gun.

2) How to get more new 3-gun shooters to join USPSA.

The USPSA classification system seams to be viewed (by USPSA) as a sales and marketing tool. Sorta like buying a car from brand X because they offer a feature that brand Y may or may not, but feel its neccesary to sell their product. For that intended purpose there may be some merit to a 3-gun classification system for USPSA growth, but not for 3-gun growth in general.

For 3-gun to attract more shooters however, a classification system really has no draw as a new shooter probably has no idea what it is anyway. They just want to shoot and have a good time. But first and foremost they need to know what it is and how to do it.

Localy, I am in the process of putting on a class/introduction to prospective new shooters who are club members (non-Club members are always welcome as well) who are curious or interested but were maybee not sure what its all about or are affraid to try it because of lack of experiance.There will be an anouncement in our local news letter for the date and time etc. After a lecture on the hows and whys of shooting a local match, There will be a couple of easy exibition stages set up for attendies to get there feet wet without any real pressure of competition. We have a very large membership and less than 10% participate in action shooting events. There is a huge potential in any local club that can be taped for new shooters. Some may even join USPSA. If your club does not do something similar, I challenge you all to start something. If you build it they will come.

[Charles Bond]

Holding matches invites shooters. Holding good fun matches invites more shooters. Having shooters join an organization motivates them furher, gives them an anchor, and provides a motivation to shoot more. And to ignore sporting clays and high power all you want but their collective membership laps USPSA and every know 3 gun shooter by a large margin.

I have said this before and I will say it again, this is not about what is best for 3 gun but rather what is best for USPSA. While there is no reason what is good for one would not be good for the other, I am yet to hear how classifications would damage any existing match.

Since the existing matches are MG and I am talking about only adding shotgun and rifle classifications I fail to understand the threat. Since there is only one match with a "classification system" (actually no since USPSA has no MG classification system but we shoot hundreds of pistol matches each year with a classification system)that one match even if it were classified does not appear to be any threat to the other independent matches. Of course no one here thinks the classification system, if there was one, would affect attendance at that match.

We have no way to export FB3G or DPMS or Midwest to Bubba's Gun range which has 2 pistol berms and a place to shoot rifle out to 100 yards. The shooters at Bubba's will never see a Johnson 3 gun since there is no bait for which to place on the hook so Denise can later reel them in. Having great fun large treasure laden matches are great. But they do not get everyone and can not get everyone. Let not our bias for the large match skew our judgement so as to avoid embracing this opportunity. It is not all about providing shooters to attend the big match. It is about growing numbers and membership and particiaption.

[dillon]

I am unsure how adopting a classification for multigun will cause the sport to grow. USPSA "bought" Steel Challange, and has not seen fit to impose a classification system on that sport. I suspect a greater limitation to the growth of local 3 Gun shooting is the physical limitations of the various local ranges. A 25 yard pistol bay is much easier to acommidate than a 400 yard field course.No one seems to choose not attend the Steel Challenge Championship just because they are competing heads up against KC, TGO or Jerry.

Next, for USPSA to acquire an administrative role in the existing 3 gun events, any adopted classification system would need to be simple,ie: a single classification for all three firearms, not a separate classification for each.Any complex classification system, with a separate classification for each firearm and a potential of 216 unique subdivisions, will simply be ignored.I also suggest that the current point system for scoring a 3 Gun USPSA match should be replaced by the simpler "Time-Plus" format 1 A/B hit or 2 hits anywhere that is in use in most other 3 gun events. What USPSA offers for handguns works for handguns, but don't hamper the sport by trying to make 3 Gun conform to the USPSA Pistol shooting format. The folks that put on 3 Gun events are familiar with the USPSA point scoring system. If it offered an advantage, I suspect they would have already adopted it. USPSA didn't revamp all the rules for Steel Challange, why the insistance on doing it for 3 Gun?

I think USPSA could play a significant role in expanding 3 Gun, if they start looking outside the box and really see what already works in other 3 Gun events first. The fewer rules, and the simpler it is, the more likely it is to be accepted.Too complex,it will merely marginalize USPSA in the 3 Gun sport. You need to give the flourishing major 3 gun events a reason to want an association with USPSA.

[kurtm]

I wouldn't say that the classification system has kept USPSA full either, If you look at the Memebership #s they are high...BUT...many are inactive members. If the classification were such a big hook, we wouldn't have such high non active member #s. As for Johnson 3-gun and RM3G it is always as full as can be run, how would you propose to "grow it" classified or not...it is already maxed out and has been since it's inception.

To be honest the only reason I ever joined is so I could enter matches over-sea in shotgun and rifle....I could care less about being classified, and never have, right off the top of my head I couldn't tell you my USPSA # cause I just don't even care about the semi glossy paper it is printed upon. NOT because Idon't like USPSA, I do, but because it doesn't offer anything I need (out side of a ticket to the matches over-seas), and I know one of the very best 3-gunners in the nation isn't even a member of USPSA. Not because he doesn't like USPSA, but it offers nothing for him either.

[Merlin Orr]

Might I suggest that USPSA has a substantial number of members, not because of it's classification, but in spite of it....

I like to shoot, and USPSA has clubs that put on interesting matches. And that is the only reason for my membership.

[Merlin Orr]

I am putting together a poll to see where the BE membership stands on some of these issues. I am sending a number of people a list of the questions, including you Charles, to allow you to contribute with suggestions as to what questions you feel should be on the Poll.... When I get the responses regarding what questions should be on the poll we will post it and see where it leads...???

[bigbrowndog]

So Chuck what you're saying is by me joining the National Association it MAKES me a better firefighter, it MAKES me want to be better, and such, :roflol: Me being a member of my work union has done no such thing, those things you talk about are inside the individual and do not belong to an association, they are not issued by them nor are they the sole property of an outside association, they are inside me. If anything my union has angered me by its BoD making decisions based on how they want and not the rank and file FF's, do you see any parallels, or similarities.

What makes a person want to succeed or excel is called DRIVE, not the Association!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[StealthyBlagga]

Why doesn't the USPSA focus on rifle or shotgun only matches at the local level. It's a lot easier to get new shooters out when it's less complicated. After a couple rifle matches and the regular pistol stuff it would seem like the shooting a full on 3 gun match would be the next step... IPSC does a lot of shotgun or rifle only matches in Europe and from what Trapr and Kurt tell me they are hugely popular over there. USPSA is promoting the heck out if steel challenge, why not individual long gun matches?

^ This !

USPSA can do something useful by promoting individual long-gun matches under existing rules that are already well established and less controversial. Many of the scoring issues (major/minor etc) would go away with individual long-gun matches. If they wanted to roll out a classification system, it would be much easier for individual long-guns than for multi-gun. USPSA should leave multi-gun alone to mature a little longer.

Edited August 27, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[benelli2]

Oh, come on fellas, let's get back to the thread topic specifically, "Does USPSA need a classification system"? hmmmmmm, by the over whelming response, NO! But if they want to go ahead, but it won't mean anything to anyone out here shooting outlaw, Main Stream, full to capacity, very popular 3 gun matches anyway, and will add no value to local level matches either as teh majority of us see it. Concentration on shooter value, not bureaucratic churn will increase participation See ya'll at he range

[abn-rgr]

Oh, come on fellas, let's get back to the thread topic specifically, "Does USPSA need a classification system"? hmmmmmm, by the over whelming response, NO! But if they want to go ahead, but it won't mean anything to anyone out here shooting outlaw, Main Stream, full to capacity, very popular 3 gun matches anyway, and will add no value to local level matches either as teh majority of us see it. Concentration on shooter value, not bureaucratic churn will increase participation See ya'll at he range

What Jeff said.....

[smokshwn]

So Chuck what you're saying is by me joining the National Association it MAKES me a better firefighter, it MAKES me want to be better, and such, :roflol: Me being a member of my work union has done no such thing, those things you talk about are inside the individual and do not belong to an association, they are not issued by them nor are they the sole property of an outside association, they are inside me. If anything my union has angered me by its BoD making decisions based on how they want and not the rank and file FF's, do you see any parallels, or similarities.

What makes a person want to succeed or excel is called DRIVE, not the Association!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Oh, come on fellas, let's get back to the thread topic specifically, "Does USPSA need a classification system"? hmmmmmm, by the over whelming response, NO! But if they want to go ahead, but it won't mean anything to anyone out here shooting outlaw, Main Stream, full to capacity, very popular 3 gun matches anyway, and will add no value to local level matches either as teh majority of us see it. Concentration on shooter value, not bureaucratic churn will increase participation See ya'll at he range

What Jeff said.....

Which is exactly what I am saying. The classification system is a draw for new members. Once your in and enjoy the sport for lots of other reasons, it becomes much less important. After shooting 20 years, I am going to the match whether it is heads up or by class because mostly I am going to shoot and have a good time with my friends. But we have to approach this with the mindset of the new shooter not the mindset of how we view our sport now.

Amd I would love for USPSA to concentrate on shooter value but not one of you can tell us how to do that. Regardless of what USPSA does, the largest influence on membership are the guys or gals at the first local club where a new shooter first sets foot. We can not monitor that or should we try and we all know that a shooters first experience at a club match varies from club to club just as we had rather shoot one local match vs. another.

Lots of people contribute to this sport. But one club might have an overstock of welcoming friendly people just as another club has an overstock of those who are not so. But if anyone has any ideas how to concentrate on shooter value for new shooters, I am all ears.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I have said this before and I will say it again, this is not about what is best for 3 gun but rather what is best for USPSA.

I think this highlighted statement illustrates a fundamental area of disagreement. Charles sees 3 Gun as an opportunity to grow USPSA membership - I can respect this viewpoint coming from a USPSA AD. But it seems the vast majority of 3 Gunners disagree with this premise - we think it SHOULD be about WHAT'S BEST FOR 3-GUN. USPSA has only recently embraced 3-Gun when compared to the longevity of many outlaw matches and it holds no patent on this thing we call 3-Gun. Most successful 3-Gun matches shoot heads up; with shooters finishing first through last based on their performance.

I personally don't want to pay an extra $2 or $3 per match for classfication fees just to fill the USPSA coffers - this sport is expensive enough already.

[Charles Bond]

So Chuck what you're saying is by me joining the National Association it MAKES me a better firefighter, it MAKES me want to be better, and such, :roflol: Me being a member of my work union has done no such thing, those things you talk about are inside the individual and do not belong to an association, they are not issued by them nor are they the sole property of an outside association, they are inside me. If anything my union has angered me by its BoD making decisions based on how they want and not the rank and file FF's, do you see any parallels, or similarities.

What makes a person want to succeed or excel is called DRIVE, not the Association!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

So why did you join your national association? Do you get a publication that you never read? Have you never ordered a single thing you saw advertised therein? Have you never attended a training which they sponsored? Do they lobby to assist you with benefits? Do they promote public awareness of what you do? Do they offer scholarships? Do they offer any insurance that is available to the members?

If it makes you feel any better I am not a member of the American Bar Association because what they are all about is so far removed from what I do others have actually written books about it. But I can not say they offer nothing since they accredit legal education, develop model laws for states to adopt, offer scholarships, and in many other ways advance my profession.

Trapr you can not tell me that you that your drive was the total reason you succeeded. You did not just sit down and read it all in a book. You were trained. You attended classes. You benefited from those that came before you. And based on what I see in shooting, including your posts here on technical issues with firearms, you freely pass on the things you have learned to others. And if there were no Brian Enos Forum I know you would still do that but the fact is that because there is a forum your advice has the potential of reaching thousands of people worldwide vs. just a handfull. And that my friend is what an association, conferation, union, club, etc is all about.

Lastly, just as you have the opportunity to elect folks like me in USPSA, you have the same right to do so in your firefighter union. If folks like yourself do not step forward to lead the firefighters or the shooters, who is going to do so?

[Ranger_SXT]

So Chuck what you're saying is by me joining the National Association it MAKES me a better firefighter, it MAKES me want to be better, and such, :roflol: Me being a member of my work union has done no such thing, those things you talk about are inside the individual and do not belong to an association, they are not issued by them nor are they the sole property of an outside association, they are inside me. If anything my union has angered me by its BoD making decisions based on how they want and not the rank and file FF's, do you see any parallels, or similarities.

What makes a person want to succeed or excel is called DRIVE, not the Association!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

So why did you join your national association? Do you get a publication that you never read? Have you never ordered a single thing you saw advertised therein? Have you never attended a training which they sponsored? Do they lobby to assist you with benefits? Do they promote public awareness of what you do? Do they offer scholarships? Do they offer any insurance that is available to the members?

If it makes you feel any better I am not a member of the American Bar Association because what they are all about is so far removed from what I do others have actually written books about it. But I can not say they offer nothing since they accredit legal education, develop model laws for states to adopt, offer scholarships, and in many other ways advance my profession.

Trapr you can not tell me that you that your drive was the total reason you succeeded. You did not just sit down and read it all in a book. You were trained. You attended classes. You benefited from those that came before you. And based on what I see in shooting, including your posts here on technical issues with firearms, you freely pass on the things you have learned to others. And if there were no Brian Enos Forum I know you would still do that but the fact is that because there is a forum your advice has the potential of reaching thousands of people worldwide vs. just a handfull. And that my friend is what an association, conferation, union, club, etc is all about.

Lastly, just as you have the opportunity to elect folks like me in USPSA, you have the same right to do so in your firefighter union. If folks like yourself do not step forward to lead the firefighters or the shooters, who is going to do so?

So being classified offers all of these great benefits, or can these benefits be offered without classifications?

[benny hill]

I do not think you need classes in 3-gun. Shoot in a heads up match, best man wins. Go to prize table in order of finish. The main reason I have been a uspsa member is so to shoot uspsa state & national 3-gun matches.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles, I have NEVER!!!! attended classes for training, in shooting, I have always learned from individuals during shooting matches and shared info during and after a day of shooting during social activities. I do not however recall classification as being a prerequisite to learning or having fun or asking questions?????? Yes, my DRIVE has been the reason for me succeeding, drive to go out an practice, drive to ask questions instead of being too embarrassed to look stupid, Drive to do do everything well. I joined my work union because at the time I was in the academy they marketed themselves very well and blew smoke up my dairyaire, Don't get em wrong when it comes to pistol stuff USPSA shines, but as has been said many times earlier they are the johnny come lately to 3 gun/multigun and my opinion is that they should look, learn, and put their own house in order before trying to affect changes to a group of shooters that do not necessarily need them for good matches.

If USPSA thinks that a classification system will encourage new participation from shooters, then by all means do it!! but do not expect people to break down the range gates trying to get to sign up for all the benefits of such a move, because I think you are way off base. As I have been told by some, there are those who feel that since "we" do not shoot "your" matches why should you listen to "us". Its ideas like that that cause people to be turned away from paying dues and having a sense of belonging to any association. I do not understand how or why after reading the responses given here that are contrary to initiating a classification system, that you could in good faith believe that it is something that the membership would want.

Trapr

[smokshwn]

So Chuck what you're saying is by me joining the National Association it MAKES me a better firefighter, it MAKES me want to be better, and such, :roflol: Me being a member of my work union has done no such thing, those things you talk about are inside the individual and do not belong to an association, they are not issued by them nor are they the sole property of an outside association, they are inside me. If anything my union has angered me by its BoD making decisions based on how they want and not the rank and file FF's, do you see any parallels, or similarities.

What makes a person want to succeed or excel is called DRIVE, not the Association!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

So why did you join your national association? Do you get a publication that you never read? Have you never ordered a single thing you saw advertised therein? Have you never attended a training which they sponsored? Do they lobby to assist you with benefits? Do they promote public awareness of what you do? Do they offer scholarships? Do they offer any insurance that is available to the members?

If it makes you feel any better I am not a member of the American Bar Association because what they are all about is so far removed from what I do others have actually written books about it. But I can not say they offer nothing since they accredit legal education, develop model laws for states to adopt, offer scholarships, and in many other ways advance my profession.

Trapr you can not tell me that you that your drive was the total reason you succeeded. You did not just sit down and read it all in a book. You were trained. You attended classes. You benefited from those that came before you. And based on what I see in shooting, including your posts here on technical issues with firearms, you freely pass on the things you have learned to others. And if there were no Brian Enos Forum I know you would still do that but the fact is that because there is a forum your advice has the potential of reaching thousands of people worldwide vs. just a handfull. And that my friend is what an association, conferation, union, club, etc is all about.

Lastly, just as you have the opportunity to elect folks like me in USPSA, you have the same right to do so in your firefighter union. If folks like yourself do not step forward to lead the firefighters or the shooters, who is going to do so?

Charles,

Not a single thing you listed has anything to do with classification from the association.

There has been threads ad nauseum as to how to improve shooter value, maybe you just have not been listening. It was only last year that USPSA admitted that it needed to do a much better job with Multigun or it would lose it. A good effort was put forth at Nationals. I think it is very telling of your personal view for you to say noone has been offering feedback.

Edited August 27, 2010 by smokshwn

[bgary]

I feel like I'm starting to smell something rotten. The AD (all by himself...I don't see other ADs chiming in, especially the ones who actually shoot 3gun) who is most vehemently arguing what is best for USPSA is the same one one who has argued that USPSA should drop the multi gun nats because it doesn't make enough money for the national organization. What's really going on in this thread?

Are "we" trying to "fix" something that isn't broken.... Or trying to break something that works just fine everywhere except USPSA?

Edited August 28, 2010 by jakers

[Charles Bond]

"It was only last year that USPSA admitted that it needed to do a much better job with Multigun or it would lose it"

When was this in Front Sight? Front Sight is the official journal of the organization and what is published there constitutes the official position of USPSA.

And I am still waiting on what the USPSA BOD can do to improve shooter value in 3 gun or anything else. I am completely aware that there are lots of threads on this and other forums on how to do that ........... at the club level. What suggestions that have been posted on this and other boards about how to improve shooter value usually starts with "If the USPSA BOD would allocate us funds to do ______ all would be better". Well your not talking to a guy who thinks we improve shooter value by a redistribution of wealth from clubs who do a good job to clubs that can not raise their own funds.

Lastly there is Jakers who desires to allude to the fact that I have some other agenda. My agenda is to keep USPSA healthy financially. I did indeed tell the rest of the BOD last year that USPSA should get out of 3 gun if we could not come up with a plan to at least cover our costs after this many years into the project. During my tenure on the USPSA BOD we have used excessive amounts of BOD time to fiddle with the MG rules and used funds derived from the pistol divisions to try and prime the pump for 3 gun. My question to anyone is how fair is it for USPSA or any other organization to use the funds of the many to pay for the needs of the few? Either USPSA needs to generate some funds off of 3 gun or we need to cut that line before we lose yet more money that could be used to advance the needs of the organization in other areas.

BTW: I shot seven three gun or MG matches last year only one of which was a USPSA match. Before my time as an AD there were no USPSA 3 gun matches in Area 6. Now there is not only an area match but most of the states are also running one. And I sign my real name to each and every post I make on this forum.

[Merlin Orr]

snip >>> And I sign my real name to each and every post I make on this forum.

Charles we really do agree on something as being important and the right way to do things.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Merlin Orr

[OPENB]

I have shot with Charles at a couple FB3G matches, and found him to be nothing but a gentleman. I was at first a little put off about his statement about the good of USPSA, but do see his point of view. 3 gun is growing by leaps and bounds, except within USPSA. Why is that? If USPSA wants some of that action, it must offer what those shooters want. I think a poll on what we are looking for in a 3 gun match is excellent! My closest 3 gun club has changed it's rule set from USPSA to FB3G, to IMGA in the past several years. USPSA rules were just too cumbersome to handle, and with the participation growing every match, streamlining was necessary. The smartest thing USPSA did was to make San Angelo scoring optional. I recognize that 1 A/B, 2 anywhere does not reward accuracy as much as speed, but does move the match at a practical rate. I enjoy FB3G's modified IDPA scoring, and find it the most realistic. I'm afraid a classification system would take us backwards, toward the un-necessary complication we are stepping away from. It will not grow USPSA 3 gun participation.

[kurtm]

Well Charles, since you asked, and I have the time to re-post this for the 18th time, and MAYBE you will catch it this time. USPSA could.....

Assign R.O.s that know about 3-gun, not just a bunch of R.O.s that do pistol only matches, and can't wait to D.Q. people when they don't know the 3-gun rules themselves! We could use R.O. closer to the region that the match is held in so we don't need to spend cubic dollars on airfare to fly in R.O.s who don't know 3-gu anyway.

USPSA could solicit stage designs from active 3-gunners, instead of having stages designed by pistol guys who then design pistol stages for rifles and shotguns

USPSA could appoint match directors that actually 3-gun.

USPSA could actuall appoint someone to get major sponsoreship to help the match financialy and fill the prize table...Kind of like the Pan-Am did under Linda Chico, you were there did you ever have to buy dinner? Luch? NO!! it was all sponsored.

USPSA could and has ammended some of it's rules to help divisions and shooters. GREAT JOB! and many of these things are NOW being addressed much to USPSA's credit.

None of these things would cost more money, or re-distribute funds, they would just use the funds available more wisely

As for area 6 Never having 3-gun matches before you came along, I guess you must have missed the ones put on in Anniston before your tenure on the board.

[Flexmoney]

I don't know if this thread started out with good intentions, but it is well off topic. I've seen some rather harsh things said here, that are within the guidelines of Brian's Forum.

"Ignorant" and "BS" statements really don't belong. You don't have to agree, but you do need to discuss in a respectful manner.

Remember folks, this is a place to discuss, with the goal of improvement.

Since we are beat the same old horse, I am putting it out of it's misery..

CLOSED.

- Admin.