Popper Calibration & Challenge

[sperman]

As much as I hate to start another popper calibration thread, here goes.

Appendix C1 covers popper calibration and calibration challenges. However, I don't know of any level 1 match in this area that has a designated gun and ammo for popper calibration. It would be nice to have some guidelines on how to select a gun and ammo, and who should perform the calibration.

This came up at a match yesterday, and the shooter insisted that his gun and ammo be used for the calibration. We refused and used another production gun on the squad, but after reading the rules I'm not sure what the right call is. C1 says you must designate one or more guns to calibration. It doesn't give you any recourse if this wasn't done before the start of the match.

[BritinUSA]

Even if the shooter is shooting Production I think you should always try to use another gun/ammo. The shooter could be shooting sub-minor by mistake.

[Matt Cheely]

Around here someone else shooting production will shoot the popper.

[SteveU]

We try to find a 9mm with factory ammo. We've been lucky so far.

[lucky #7]

At a level 1 match this is one of those issues where in the absense of an official calibration pistol open minded discussion and common scense need to be the rule because there is a big gray area here.

Edited because my original post unintentially sounded sarcastic.

Edited August 8, 2010 by lucky #7

[George Jones]

Does "factory ammo" make the specified power factor (115 to 125)? I suspect not. I believe that most factory 9mm shot thru anything bigger than a mouse gun goes well above 130PF.

Seems senseless to calibrate with a gun/ammo combination which is very probably above the standard and has not been calibrated per the procedures.

A common problem with many (most?) Level I matches. The only way to do it is with a known combination. Lacking that, you're just making mush. Season and stir to taste.

[pvhendrix]

George,

Are you indicating that if there is a "popper calibration issue" that a reshoot be automatically awarded? Each MD for every local/Level-1 match would have to reload and keep ammo that meets the standard or award a reshoot. Otherwise there is no way of meeting the rule requirement.

I think this ammo requirement to meet the standard would really place a burden on local MD's.

What would you suggest as a solution... being a RO/RM instructor?

Thanks!

PV

Edited August 8, 2010 by pvhendrix

[George Jones]

George,

Are you indicating that if there is a "popper calibration issue" that a reshoot be automatically awarded? Each MD for every local/Level-1 match would have to reload and keep ammo that meets the standard or award a reshoot. Otherwise there is no way of meeting the rule requirement.

I think this ammo requirement to meet the standard would really place a burden on local MD's.

What would you suggest as a solution... being a RO/RM instructor?

Thanks!

PV

Per the rulebook, the only solution is to have the gun/ammo combination which has been chrono'd to assure that it is the correct PF. Lacking that, I do not have a solution.

In reality, most poppers at local matches are probably set very light which avoids calibration issues. Just as well since the poppers are not calibrated prior to the match. I have a pretty good calibrated palm and do my best to make sure they are not heavy before the match begins. The best thing to do is probably to keep them light and check them when they are being reset.

But if it gets heavy (or was set too heavy), there is no rulebook remedy without the calibration gun/ammo. At this point, I would probably fall back on REF since nothing else applies. Adjust the popper by hand and reshoot.

I'm sure some imaginative readers will come up with the other potential "solution" - which I will not offer.

[Chris iliff]

Well yeah, if the hit is in the calibration zone. But I would have a problem if the same shooter has the issue more than that one time during the match. It's a local thing.

[SteveU]

Does "factory ammo" make the specified power factor (115 to 125)? I suspect not. I believe that most factory 9mm shot thru anything bigger than a mouse gun goes well above 130PF.

Seems senseless to calibrate with a gun/ammo combination which is very probably above the standard and has not been calibrated per the procedures.

A common problem with many (most?) Level I matches. The only way to do it is with a known combination. Lacking that, you're just making mush. Season and stir to taste.

Yeah, good point.

[George Jones]

Well yeah, if the hit is in the calibration zone. But I would have a problem if the same shooter has the issue more than that one time during the match. It's a local thing.

Even a hit in the cal zone is not evidence of anything. Squibs (which I doubt were anywhere near Minor) have been known to hit targets.

The only way to assure proper calibration is to use the rulebbok procedures. Anything else is just a WAG.

[Chris iliff]

I didn't know a squib left the barrel? But, I see your point and I am in agreement that most locals do not have the calibration gun and ammo. We set ours light and rarely have a problem, in fact, I don't think we have had a challenge in 3 summers(we are a new club).

At a local I would, as the RO, 1. See if the bullet hit in the calibration zone of the popper. If the shooter wanted to challenge, then he would take what happens when the very 1st production shooter I saw lent me his gun.

That's probably the best that most Locals can provide. Fair? Well, that's been my experience for the 5 years I've been in the game. I haven't heard one complaint and I have seen this method more than once. Maybe not what you are looking for, but it is probably the standard practice at locals.

[ima45dv8]

Maybe not what you are looking for, but it is probably the standard practice at locals.

It was at most level1 matches I've been to.

[JThompson]

George,

Are you indicating that if there is a "popper calibration issue" that a reshoot be automatically awarded? Each MD for every local/Level-1 match would have to reload and keep ammo that meets the standard or award a reshoot. Otherwise there is no way of meeting the rule requirement.

I think this ammo requirement to meet the standard would really place a burden on local MD's.

What would you suggest as a solution... being a RO/RM instructor?

Thanks!

PV

Per the rulebook, the only solution is to have the gun/ammo combination which has been chrono'd to assure that it is the correct PF. Lacking that, I do not have a solution.

In reality, most poppers at local matches are probably set very light which avoids calibration issues. Just as well since the poppers are not calibrated prior to the match. I have a pretty good calibrated palm and do my best to make sure they are not heavy before the match begins. The best thing to do is probably to keep them light and check them when they are being reset.

But if it gets heavy (or was set too heavy), there is no rulebook remedy without the calibration gun/ammo. At this point, I would probably fall back on REF since nothing else applies. Adjust the popper by hand and reshoot.

I'm sure some imaginative readers will come up with the other potential "solution" - which I will not offer.

I do George.......

5.6.1 ...

REF

Edited August 9, 2010 by JThompson

[mactiger]

Does "factory ammo" make the specified power factor (115 to 125)? I suspect not. I believe that most factory 9mm shot thru anything bigger than a mouse gun goes well above 130PF.

Seems senseless to calibrate with a gun/ammo combination which is very probably above the standard and has not been calibrated per the procedures.

A common problem with many (most?) Level I matches. The only way to do it is with a known combination. Lacking that, you're just making mush. Season and stir to taste.

I gotta agree with George. At the very least, have some handloaded 9mm that makes the required PF. Use that to shoot the popper with someone's 9mm gun, if you have to. It would be better to have a known combination, but just shooting it with somebody's 9mm and either their factory ammo or their handloads is going to put a higher PF on the popper than the rules allow. This just requires a little pre-planning and a small effort to follow the rules.

Troy

[Ming the Merciless]

In the early days of IPSC before chronographs were readily available (and cheap) they used a ballistic pendulum to measure power. I'm wondering why a pendulum couldn't be used to calibrate a popper. X weight swung Y distance from Z height (somebody better with math will have to calculate the X Y & Z) once those were known it wouldn't be very difficult for a club to build a simple frame and pendulum. Set it up in front of a popper and let fly (so to speak.)

[JThompson]

Does "factory ammo" make the specified power factor (115 to 125)? I suspect not. I believe that most factory 9mm shot thru anything bigger than a mouse gun goes well above 130PF.

Seems senseless to calibrate with a gun/ammo combination which is very probably above the standard and has not been calibrated per the procedures.

A common problem with many (most?) Level I matches. The only way to do it is with a known combination. Lacking that, you're just making mush. Season and stir to taste.

I gotta agree with George. At the very least, have some handloaded 9mm that makes the required PF. Use that to shoot the popper with someone's 9mm gun, if you have to. It would be better to have a known combination, but just shooting it with somebody's 9mm and either their factory ammo or their handloads is going to put a higher PF on the popper than the rules allow. This just requires a little pre-planning and a small effort to follow the rules.

Troy

Ya, you have to do something right? You can't just say REF every time a popper doesn't fall. What is done a lot at the local level is to set the poppers light so that they will fall rather easy. While this isn't ideal, it's about the best solution we have found to keep the match moving.. The only time this becomes problematic is when there is a good breeze blowing and the poppers need to be set a bit heavy to keep them from falling prematurely.

I thought you guys would jump on my earlier post, it was meant like Three Stooges fingers in the eye.

This is one of those times we rules junkies have to turn our head and cough.... The fact is, a lot of times this situation is less than ideal, but it is what it is.

JT

Edited August 9, 2010 by JThompson

[ima45dv8]

I thought you guys would jump on my earlier post, it was meant like Three Stooges fingers in the eye.

I got that.

[mactiger]

Does "factory ammo" make the specified power factor (115 to 125)? I suspect not. I believe that most factory 9mm shot thru anything bigger than a mouse gun goes well above 130PF.

Seems senseless to calibrate with a gun/ammo combination which is very probably above the standard and has not been calibrated per the procedures.

A common problem with many (most?) Level I matches. The only way to do it is with a known combination. Lacking that, you're just making mush. Season and stir to taste.

I gotta agree with George. At the very least, have some handloaded 9mm that makes the required PF. Use that to shoot the popper with someone's 9mm gun, if you have to. It would be better to have a known combination, but just shooting it with somebody's 9mm and either their factory ammo or their handloads is going to put a higher PF on the popper than the rules allow. This just requires a little pre-planning and a small effort to follow the rules.

Troy

Ya, you have to do something right? You can't just say REF every time a popper doesn't fall. What is done a lot at the local level is to set the poppers light so that they will fall rather easy. While this isn't ideal, it's about the best solution we have found to keep the match moving.. The only time this becomes problematic is when there is a good breeze blowing and the poppers need to be set a bit heavy to keep them from falling prematurely.

I thought you guys would jump on my earlier post, it was meant like Three Stooges fingers in the eye.

This is one of those times we rules junkies have to turn our head and cough.... The fact is, a lot of times this situation is less than ideal, but it is what it is.

JT

We set poppers light by hand at Nationals, and then calibrate them. It doesn't matter how you set them, the important part is to calibrate them. We normally don't calibrate to the point of failure and then back off a little--we shoot them with about 122 PF ammo, and if they fall over, they're good to go.

Even doing it that way, we still get challenges, so they have to be shot again.

It's not hard to work up a light load for doing this, it just requires someone to actually do it. While the rule book allows for exceptions for level one matches, this is one area where it doesn't.

Troy

[glefos]

I was the one shooting when the popper didn't fall.

I had this happened in a level I match in Columbia a few years ago and the Section coordinator, Jack Suber, did the calibration. He used my pistol to do the calibration. I was a new shooter at the time and asked why. The reasoning I received was that someone else's Production gun with factory ammo could PF 136 with factory ammo while my PF could have been 131 with factory ammo.

Scott, I believe you made the correct call. It should have been a reshoot for range equipment failure.

[sperman]

For what its worth, I knew my gun / ammo combination was about 130 pf, so I shot a couple of inches below the calibration zone to try and compensate for the higher pf. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but without a calibrated gun/ammo combination it seemed like a good compromise. After reading the rules, I would be tempted to rule REF on any popper that doesn't fall, if the MD doesn't have a calibrated gun/ammo combo to challenge the popper calibration.

[Fireant]

Since I am the MD at my local match I just bring by steel challenge open gun that I run a 120 PF in and that is the designated calibration gun/ammo. I'm sure most clubs can find someone that shoots a 115-125 PF steel load that can bring that set-up with them to the match just in case. That way there are no hard feelings come lunch time and you teach the new guys/ladies how the rule works for when they finally go to a state or area match. The learning should be done locally not at a major match.

[Graham Smith]

Does anyone (like AA or DC Ammo) make any 115-120 PF "calibration" ammo? My 9mm stuff runs about 130-135 PF. I suppose I could make up some special calibration ammo by downloading just a bit, but it hardly seems worth the bother if I can just buy some that I know will work since I hardly shoot 9mm anymore.

[Skydiver]

Does anyone (like AA or DC Ammo) make any 115-120 PF "calibration" ammo? My 9mm stuff runs about 130-135 PF. I suppose I could make up some special calibration ammo by downloading just a bit, but it hardly seems worth the bother if I can just buy some that I know will work since I hardly shoot 9mm anymore.

According to the Rulebook, the calibration ammo must be between 115-125.

[JakeMartens]

I think the simple solution would be that even at local club matches that there be a designated Range Master (usually going to be the Match Director, but doesn't have to be) and that ahead of time have some loaded up Calibration ammo for the clubs