Rule Modification

[Gary Stevens]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we recently allowed a 1x Optic on a Limited Division rifle.

Since the Multi-gun rules are provisional, this can be reversed if necessary.

Considering the low turn out in Limited Division, I think this might be a shot in the arm.

In short, Limited can use 1x Optic no extenders, Tactical can use a fixed or variable Optic, and Open can use whatever you can mount and drag to the line.

Gary

Edited July 20, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[RH45]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we recently allowed a 1x Optic on a Limited Division rifle.

Since the Multi-gun rules are provisional, this can be reversed if necessary.

Considering the low turn out in Limited Division, I think this might be a shot in the arm.

In short, Limited can use 1x Optic no extenders, Tactical can use a fixed or variable Optic, and Open can use whatever you can mount and drag to the line.

Gary

I missed that.

So, a C-more, or, EoTech is o.k.??

[Outsydlooknin75]

Hmmm I dont know if I like that or not. I liked the idea of Limited be irons only but that is just me.

I think any type of an optic 1x or not should be allowed in Tactical only.

But those are just my opinions.

[Gary Stevens]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but we recently allowed a 1x Optic on a Limited Division rifle.

Since the Multi-gun rules are provisional, this can be reversed if necessary.

Considering the low turn out in Limited Division, I think this might be a shot in the arm.

In short, Limited can use 1x Optic no extenders, Tactical can use a fixed or variable Optic, and Open can use whatever you can mount and drag to the line.

Gary

I missed that.

So, a C-more, or, EoTech is o.k.??

Yes.

[Gary Stevens]

Hmmm I dont know if I like that or not. I liked the idea of Limited be irons only but that is just me.

I think any type of an optic 1x or not should be allowed in Tactical only.

But those are just my opinions.

I understand your feelings, but when you have two (I believe that is correct) Limited rifle shooters show up at your National Championships it indicates that something needs to be changed.

Time will tell, and you can still use your irons if you wish.

[Bryan 45]

Big step for USPSA. My iron sights say bring on the competition!

[DocMedic]

I can see some griping here because of this, but overall I believe this is a change for the better, Iron shooters will still have the advantage of longer shots due to being able to "click" in elevation. And this will give reddot shooters a chance in placing decent at a match. After all this division is called "limited" and not "iron only".

Couple concerns i'm seeing here is

1) Some models EoTech's have reticles with more then 1 Point of reference, IE: EXPS3-2 which allows for two POA's which is unique to the holographic technology.

2) I can see Iron sight rifles being built with a reddot off to the side like how most open rifles being built, that way they'll have the reddot for close in shots and can use there irons for the longer 100+ yard shots, would this be consider intent of the rules?

and personally, I think this would be the only reason why I would ever even compete in limited division if 1x reddots were allowed to compete in it.

Edited July 20, 2010 by DocMedic

[Bryan 45]

Doc, with all due respect, what does intent have to do with it? Either it meets the language of the rules or it does not. I haven't read the rule change yet, so I don't know. I like the way you think though...

Unless we start shooting rifle stages before sun up or after sun down, I think irons still hold an advantage for long and close shots, in practiced hands.

Trapr- did you have anything to do with this?

Edited July 20, 2010 by Bryan 45

[benny hill]

That means I can shoot limited with my 1x4 burris on 1 power & promise not to turn the dial.

[DocMedic]

Doc, with all due respect, what does intent have to do with it? Either it meets the language of the rules or it does not. I haven't read the rule change yet, so I don't know. I like the way you think though...

Unless we start shooting rifle stages before sun up or after sun down, I think irons still hold an advantage for long and close shots, in practiced hands.

Trapr- did you have anything to do with this?

Don't get me wrong I'm 100% behind this rule change, but with any game, people are gonna "game" it.

and I secretly hope this will catch on to the other 3gun rules as well . After all someones gotta be a ginue pig.

Edited July 20, 2010 by DocMedic

[Chuck Anderson]

That means I can shoot limited with my 1x4 burris on 1 power & promise not to turn the dial.

Nope, it specifically says 1x only optics. Not optics set at 1x. It was written specifically to prohibit using a varible powered scope on 1x.

[bigbrowndog]

bring it on!!!!!!!! I only hope it applies to HM as well.

I'm amazed that common sense seems to have prevailed.

Trapr

[Chuck Anderson]

I can see some griping here because of this, but overall I believe this is a change for the better, Iron shooters will still have the advantage of longer shots due to being able to "click" in elevation. And this will give reddot shooters a chance in placing decent at a match. After all this division is called "limited" and not "iron only".

Couple concerns i'm seeing here is

1) Some models EoTech's have reticles with more then 1 Point of reference, IE: EXPS3-2 which allows for two POA's which is unique to the holographic technology.

2) I can see Iron sight rifles being built with a reddot off to the side like how most open rifles being built, that way they'll have the reddot for close in shots and can use there irons for the longer 100+ yard shots, would this be consider intent of the rules?

and personally, I think this would be the only reason why I would ever even compete in limited division if 1x reddots were allowed to compete in it.

Both were mentioned and considered before approving the rule change. Both are now okay in Limited. If you want to mount your EoTech with multiple aiming dots on the side of your gun and use your fancy target irons on the top go for it. There just isn't that much of an advantage there. We didn't want to restrict the folks who have co-witnessed iron sights, or flip up back up sights unnecessarily.

The idea behind the rule change was to attract new shooters to Multigun. The shooters out there who bought black rifles and threw red dots on because that's what they see guys carrying in the sandbox. This gives them a chance to come to a Multigun match with the equipment they have, and compete in a division with guys using similar equipment. I still remember the first USPSA 3 Gun match I came to. I had a Trijicon Reflex on my Duty rifle and had to compete in Open. (This was before Tactical). Totally turned me off from USPSA 3G and it was years before I tried it again. Telling the new guy with a red dot to compete in Tactical against the guy with the $1600.00 Swarovski is a bit like telling him he's competing against the guy with the full custom 2011 with his Ruger P85. The top Iron sight guys are still gonna beat them, red dot or not. Heck I can't beat Piatt or Miller with my fancy magnified scope (don't tell Kurt)

The hope was to not drive any existing shooters away, and attract new ones. There was quite a bit of consultation with some of the major 3 gun MD's in the country. Some are already allowing red dots in limited. They saw a large in flux of new folks come to matches. If we can get more people shooting Limited, without just shuffling the Divisions around, I see it as a good thing. If we find out after a year or so that no one is competing in Limited still and we haven't gained anything we can always revisit the decision. But I think this is going to be a good thing for Multigun in general and Limited specifically.

[Chuck Anderson]

bring it on!!!!!!!! I only hope it applies to HM as well.

I'm amazed that common sense seems to have prevailed.

Trapr

Sorry Trap, we held onto HM Limited as the one remaining Iron Sight only division. I pushed to have at least one spot for irons only. If the HM shooters want it I'm sure we can look at allowing them in. We did change the HM Limited Pistol rules though. No more 1911 only. Now it's just L-10 compliant gun in .45 or bigger. Wanna shoot a Glock 21 go for it. Wanna shoot a Smith 625 go for it. (I actually had a request for that one)

[Gary Stevens]

bring it on!!!!!!!! I only hope it applies to HM as well.

I'm amazed that common sense seems to have prevailed.

Trapr

Nothing like a good (female dog) slap as one goes out the door

Edited July 20, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[gose]

Are the updated rules available somewhere?

[Chuck Anderson]

BTW, here is the actual motion that was approved.

Remove references to Time Plus scoring method being used on a trial basis for LI and LII matches for the 2009 season

EZWS version 4.03 or later must be used to score MG matches

Remove references to San Angelo scoring

Add an appendix defining MultiGun divisions

Allow Limited rifles to have one non magnified optic

Heavy Metal Limited handgun requirement changes from Single Stack to Limited 10

Heavy Metal competitors failing to make major pf with any firearm (but does make minor) will be moved to an appropriate division instead of shooting for no score

Area1: Yes

Area2: Yes

Area3: Yes

Area5: Yes

Area6: No

Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area8: No

President: Yes

[DocMedic]

I can see some griping here because of this, but overall I believe this is a change for the better, Iron shooters will still have the advantage of longer shots due to being able to "click" in elevation. And this will give reddot shooters a chance in placing decent at a match. After all this division is called "limited" and not "iron only".

Couple concerns i'm seeing here is

1) Some models EoTech's have reticles with more then 1 Point of reference, IE: EXPS3-2 which allows for two POA's which is unique to the holographic technology.

2) I can see Iron sight rifles being built with a reddot off to the side like how most open rifles being built, that way they'll have the reddot for close in shots and can use there irons for the longer 100+ yard shots, would this be consider intent of the rules?

and personally, I think this would be the only reason why I would ever even compete in limited division if 1x reddots were allowed to compete in it.

Both were mentioned and considered before approving the rule change. Both are now okay in Limited. If you want to mount your EoTech with multiple aiming dots on the side of your gun and use your fancy target irons on the top go for it. There just isn't that much of an advantage there. We didn't want to restrict the folks who have co-witnessed iron sights, or flip up back up sights unnecessarily.

The idea behind the rule change was to attract new shooters to Multigun. The shooters out there who bought black rifles and threw red dots on because that's what they see guys carrying in the sandbox. This gives them a chance to come to a Multigun match with the equipment they have, and compete in a division with guys using similar equipment. I still remember the first USPSA 3 Gun match I came to. I had a Trijicon Reflex on my Duty rifle and had to compete in Open. (This was before Tactical). Totally turned me off from USPSA 3G and it was years before I tried it again. Telling the new guy with a red dot to compete in Tactical against the guy with the $1600.00 Swarovski is a bit like telling him he's competing against the guy with the full custom 2011 with his Ruger P85. The top Iron sight guys are still gonna beat them, red dot or not. Heck I can't beat Piatt or Miller with my fancy magnified scope (don't tell Kurt)

The hope was to not drive any existing shooters away, and attract new ones. There was quite a bit of consultation with some of the major 3 gun MD's in the country. Some are already allowing red dots in limited. They saw a large in flux of new folks come to matches. If we can get more people shooting Limited, without just shuffling the Divisions around, I see it as a good thing. If we find out after a year or so that no one is competing in Limited still and we haven't gained anything we can always revisit the decision. But I think this is going to be a good thing for Multigun in general and Limited specifically.

And I completely agree, my first 3gun match I ever shot was with a M&P15T w/Holosight since then I've moved on to bigger and better things , But when I saw my name on the result sheet being last in tactical division, a lesser man would probably say "screw this game, I ain't gonna pay XXXX's of dollars for just a scope".

Edited July 20, 2010 by DocMedic

[gose]

Remove references to San Angelo scoring

Ehum... No more San Angelo scoring?

Is this change just for multigun, or will the rifle rules be changed to allow 1x optics in Limited as well?

Edited July 20, 2010 by gose

[Chuck Anderson]

The new version of EZ Win Score handles multiple power factors so there is no reason to use San Angelo scoring any more. Rifle Targets can be scored minor while Pistol and Shotgun remain Major or whatever the shooter is actually shooting. San Angelo was an interim fix because EZ Win Score couldn't deal with it, it can now.

Limited with 1x Optic is allowed in Rifle only or Multigun events. It just changed the definition of Limited.

[Stlhead]

I will be removing my 1911 holster from my heavy metal rig tonight and mounting up a 625 holster! And I think that allowing 1x optics in limited was a good idea as well. If heavy metal continues to dwindle I may try my hand at limited, and more shooters (and I think that allowing dots will increase the ranks of the limited shooters) in a class is a good thing. The only question i have is with the limited 10 rules does not 40cal make major? Is there a .45 only clause still for HM?

[DocMedic]

BTW, here is the actual motion that was approved.

Remove references to Time Plus scoring method being used on a trial basis for LI and LII matches for the 2009 season

EZWS version 4.03 or later must be used to score MG matches

Remove references to San Angelo scoring

Add an appendix defining MultiGun divisions

Allow Limited rifles to have one non magnified optic

Heavy Metal Limited handgun requirement changes from Single Stack to Limited 10

Heavy Metal competitors failing to make major pf with any firearm (but does make minor) will be moved to an appropriate division instead of shooting for no score

Area1: Yes

Area2: Yes

Area3: Yes

Area5: Yes

Area6: No

Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area8: No

President: Yes

This is a tad bit off subject but why wasn't the rule of Open division shotgun being limited to XX amount of shells not changed?

[Chuck Anderson]

This is a tad bit off subject but why wasn't the rule of Open division shotgun being limited to XX amount of shells not changed?

Nobody even brought it up. I'll certainly mention it to the MG committee. Especially since I have a Saiga being built.

[gose]

btw, when is this taking effect/getting published "officially"?

Edited July 20, 2010 by gose

[HS101]

Awesome... Time to fire up the checkbook to add a side mount dot to my irons rifle