Rule Modification

[Chuck Anderson]

The rule is the same it was just written in what is hopefully a more clear manner. Same rule though, just like always.

[benny hill]

Are they useing constock scoreing or 1-A 2-anywhere scoreing? If 2 anywhere why major power factor. I have never been more confused about a match.

[Chuck Anderson]

They're using hit factor scoring just like every other USPSA match. Time plus was added for smaller match last year as an option and expanded this year to all matches, but again only as an option. As far as I know we are not using Time Plus for this match. Major will get the added points.

As far as the benefit to shooting major at a time plus match under USPSA it's the same as any IMGA match. You're doing it because it's a requirement of the Division chosen, HM. And because it's still cool to bang away with the big guns.

[TRUBL]

BTW, here is the actual motion that was approved.

Remove references to Time Plus scoring method being used on a trial basis for LI and LII matches for the 2009 season

EZWS version 4.03 or later must be used to score MG matches

Remove references to San Angelo scoring

Add an appendix defining MultiGun divisions

Allow Limited rifles to have one non magnified optic

Heavy Metal Limited handgun requirement changes from Single Stack to Limited 10

Heavy Metal competitors failing to make major pf with any firearm (but does make minor) will be moved to an appropriate division instead of shooting for no score

Area1: Yes

Area2: Yes

Area3: Yes

Area5: Yes

Area6: No

Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested

Area8: No

President: Yes

Forgive me if this has been answered.....however, is this to mean that only ONE sighting system may be used in limited? This would be "not like very much" as my limited rifle is set up with precision sights for the long range (aperature and globe) and a JP-SRTS on the side for the close stuff. Under the new ruling....is this not legal anymore??

[springy]

Awesome... Time to fire up the checkbook to add a side mount dot to my irons rifle

stay calm........what I'm seeing is you are only going to be allowed one sight on your rifle. It's going to be one or the other. The Ozark match says if you do the optic, you can only have one of the irons (front or rear) on your rifle during the match.

And there is a good chance these rules will be different from one match to the next.

[Chuck Anderson]

Awesome... Time to fire up the checkbook to add a side mount dot to my irons rifle

stay calm........what I'm seeing is you are only going to be allowed one sight on your rifle. It's going to be one or the other. The Ozark match says if you do the optic, you can only have one of the irons (front or rear) on your rifle during the match.

And there is a good chance these rules will be different from one match to the next.

The Ozark match is not a USPSA match, a fact they made very clear when discussing their rules for Limited. USPSA allows one optic, 1x only, in Limited. You can hang as many iron sights on the gun as you want. You can put your one 1x optic anywhere on the rifle. It doesn't matter if you have an Aimpoint on top and 13 different sets of iron sights scattered around on the gun. As long as you don't have any more than one 1x optic you're legal.

Tim, you're good.

[P.E. Kelley]

I've moved the meat of my post to here from another thread, as it belongs here.

I try to refrain from responding to the never ending desire for shooters (most of whom do not shoot HM) to "F" with the Heavy Metal Division, BUT

this is a GREAT idea!

1X optics should be in Limited AND HM at every match!

It looks like many other Iron Sight shooters welcome the change (and will continue to run iron's) and other than some obscure "purity factor" why not?

This change will make Limited (I hope HM 1x) a great place for the new guy to start and STAY.

We have matches NOW that are FULL to capacity! More divisions does not(can not>>>the match is full )mean more shooters...only

fewer shooters per division.

Limited with 1x Optics (remember, your eyes when open, are 1 power) and HM with 1x Optics should prove to

increase the number of competitors WITHIN those two divisions.

This, provided HM Tact or HM Optics or Heavy Tact or whatever the flavor of the day it is this week is folded into

HM 1x.

And let us be clear this is ANY FIXED 1X OPTIC correct? Electronic or not. There is more to 1X optic than batteries.

If this division takes off, and I believe it will, MORE 1X optics will be in the offing.

I shoot HM Iron (a bunch!) and I approve this message.

Patrick

[Chuck Anderson]

Yep, any 1x optic. I'm thinking along the lines of Leupold's Prismatic when I say that. If the optic is or can go higher than 1x it's a no go. Even if you JB Weld the power ring in place.

As far as filling to capacity, well that's a problem that IMGA matches have. Not the USPSA stuff. And even if we were filling the Nationals match to capacity, USPSA runs on smaller, local level matches. Area, Sectional and club matches. The rules are designed to be inclusive of the smaller matches and reflect what we hope the majority of folks out there want. I know the vast majority of shooters want to shoot with optics. But there are also shooters that want to shoot with Iron sights.

There is a purity factor to consider. The same reason USPSA instituted Single Stack Division. There are shooters who want to compete in a shooting competition, not an equipment buying competition.

We just made the change to Limited, why not see how it pans out before changing HM Limited as well? If Limited is a success, if we start getting a significant number of NEW shooters to matches, I'd be all for opening it up to HM Limited, if that's what I hear from the shooters in my area. I don't see dropping HM Tactical though. Folding it into HM Limited with 1x optics would be doing exactly that. I'm not going to tell the shooters who bought a Semi-Auto SG, .40 cal 2011 and a 1-4x scoped .308 that they have to sell off everything but the rifle. What I also won't be doing is listening to 12 person petitions where 75% of the signers don't follow through. That is not directed at you or JJ, you guys said you'd be there and you're giving it your all.

[barrysuperhawk]

Ok, I am a singlestack/he-man/heavy metal shooter so this is only intellectually relevant to me, but I did have a question.

Would this rifle configuration be limited legal?

Specifically I am asking about the cmore tactical sight.

Personally, I would think since the sights are in the same plane, it shouldn't make much of a diffence, as compared to a 45 degree offset mount [like JP] ironsight.

[Doug H.]

Ok, I am a singlestack/he-man/heavy metal shooter so this is only intellectually relevant to me, but I did have a question.

Would this rifle configuration be limited legal?

Specifically I am asking about the cmore tactical sight.

Personally, I would think since the sights are in the same plane, it shouldn't make much of a diffence, as compared to a 45 degree offset mount [like JP] ironsight.

The new rules say one on magnified optic and the C-mores, Eotechs, Aimpoints, etc. are what I believe they had in mind. I see many new 3 gun shooters in the Northwest with similar gear and those are the ones we want to feel like they can play and be competitive.

Doug

[Mike P]

Awesome... Time to fire up the checkbook to add a side mount dot to my irons rifle

stay calm........what I'm seeing is you are only going to be allowed one sight on your rifle. It's going to be one or the other. The Ozark match says if you do the optic, you can only have one of the irons (front or rear) on your rifle during the match.

And there is a good chance these rules will be different from one match to the next.

Front or rear you say? Does this mean that if you run an Aimpoint that you can only have half a back up?? Say it ain't so.

[Chuck Anderson]

Guys, this thread was started for the USPSA rule changes. USPSA in Limited allows one optic, 1x only. All the other rules stayed the same. You can put as many Iron sights on the gun in addition to that optic as you want. If the folks at the Ozark match decide to use their own rules that's their call and they'll have to answer for themselves. If you're shooting a USPSA match, the rules are posted. You can add iron sights till you're little hearts are content. If you're shooting an IMGA match, or something else you're gonna have to ask them. I personally don't understand the thinking that went into the Ozark matches decision on iron sights, but it's their match, they can do what they want.

Since it looks like some confusion has ensued, and will likely continue as more matches adopt 1x optics in Limited, I would suggest if you have a question about a specific rule set, specify it as such, i.e. USPSA, Ozark, SMM3G etc. I'd like to think we could get some consensus on the rules but history suggests otherwise.

[abn-rgr]

This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:

6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.

Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.

Edited September 8, 2010 by abn-rgr

[Mike P]

This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:

6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.

Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.

Seeing it written out like that it isn't the least bit confusing, nor is it a bad idea.

It does seem to dispel the notion that a RDS is not of some advantage over irons alone though.

[abn-rgr]

This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:

6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.

Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.

Seeing it written out like that it isn't the least bit confusing, nor is it a bad idea.

It does seem to dispel the notion that a RDS is not of some advantage over irons alone though.

I dont think RDS gives an advantage. Im sure most of you TI shooters would agree....

[Alaskapopo]

This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:

6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.

Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.

Just an observation but that rule seems silly especially if your dot goes out in the middle of a course of fire. You should be able to deploy your back up irons. Hence the name BACK UP Irons. Without having to remove the optic and get the RO's permission. But that is my opinion and its not my match.

Pat

Edited September 14, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[Bryan 45]

Pat, I expect that rule is in place to make sure no one whose RDS craps out between the close targets and the far targets gets accused of claiming their RDS when out. I had an Aimpoint ML2 that would be on for a couple shots, then go off for a couple, then come back on. There is no way for an RO to know if in fact the RDS was cooperating or not.

I'm not certainly not implying there would be anyone to take advantage of a loophole, if one existed.

[J.Schmitt]

USPSA 3 GUN CHAMPIONSHIP IS IN THE BOOKS.

Is there an accurate number on who shot what( irons or dot) in LIMITED.

Jay

[abn-rgr]

Pat, I expect that rule is in place to make sure no one whose RDS craps out between the close targets and the far targets gets accused of claiming their RDS when out. I had an Aimpoint ML2 that would be on for a couple shots, then go off for a couple, then come back on. There is no way for an RO to know if in fact the RDS was cooperating or not.

I'm not certainly not implying there would be anyone to take advantage of a loophole, if one existed.

You have it correct. Its to take a loophole out. I use a 1x4 and dont have back ups. If I fall and break my scope, thats on me. I shouldnt get a reshoot because my equipment failed. Tac Irons (it will obviously have to re renamed soon) is meant for one sighting system, not multiple or backups in my opinion. At least our rule gives you the opportunity to finish the match if your red dot goes tits up.....

[bigbrowndog]

I would tend to agree, that most if not all Iron sight shooters do not have a back up set of irons on their gun just in case. So keeping with the trend a SINGLE sight system was instituted in the original thought. Its up to you to decide how much trust you wish to place in electronics, you can also go with a non battery reflex sight or a reticle sight and not have to rely on electronics totally. if you feel a optic sight is the way to go then why would you NEED back up irons?????????

trapr

[Stlhead]

I shot limited at nationals with a red dot only on my rifle. I had hoped to shoot HM, but as there where only 3 of us we decided to move to other divisions for competitive reasons. I had brought a rifle with an aimpoint on it to use if that was the case. I shot my pump shotgun and a revolver. I was afraid that the red dot would hinder my long range shooting, after I figured out the hold (nothing like an untried gun at a major match!) I do not think that the red dot was a handicap for me on the longer range shots. I may not be a good test case, because of my poor skills, but I do not think that adding 1x optics to limited (or HM) will in any way hurt the divisions, and can only help them, but making them more inclusive. I don't think that they will offer a significant advantage or disadvantage over the currently used irons. I am convinced that a magazine fed semiautomatic pistol may indeed offer an advantage over a revolver in many cases, I may try one of those next. I like the new rules and hope that more match directors decide to allow 1x optics in limited and HM, what could it hurt, there are not that many people in those divisions now, even 1 or two per match would make a difference.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Stlhead

[Stlhead]

Also I would be in favor of limiting the number of aiming systems used to 1. If your red dot poops out, (or your irons for that matter) then you finish the stage to the best of your abilities and take your lumps.

[Benelli Chick]

I've had my irons on pistol and shotgun both, "crap" out during a stage.

I'm pretty sure, there are no back-ups allowed...or does it?!?!?!

Where would my back-up irons on my pistol be????

By the way, STLhead, after meeting you, semiautos are overrated!

I must say, after meeting you, both you and your Miller Light team member are awesome! Between you, Kwirk, Spork, PK and the Goddess, and our token foreigner, I've never laughed so hard while shooting in my life!

"I think this is going to be a stage win!"

Denise

[Mike P]

Well, if the RDS isn't an advantage over irons, then how can a set of irons on the same rifle be of an advantage over irons?

Clearly (to me anyway) the RDS used with irons IS an advantage over irons alone. If it was not, I doubt anyone would care. I like the RDS, but would never consider using them without irons, period.

By the way, there are a few people who DO use irons on their regular TO rifle, and thats is not considered an unfair advantage, or loophole.

[SinistralRifleman]

Talk about 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

What is the most common configuration of rifle in military, law enforcement, and civilian use??? A carbine with a red dot and some kind of Back Up Iron Sight behind it. If the price of competing in Tactical Iron is not being able to use a back up sight as appropriate because the sight died or because the shooter can make better use of it at range, what is the point of allowing them in Tac Iron at all?

3 Gun stage design has stagnated. It has gotten to the point where for the most part, stages are designed AROUND a particular type of equipment/capabilities than general shooting challenge. Why is Tactical Scope the most popular division? Because it is best combination of price efficiency in gear + inherent ease of use on stages. Thus making it the best combination of affordable fun. Now that so many people are invested in a particular type of equipment (variable or fixed scopes) with limited eye releif, it seems like there is no desire to push the envelope and expose the weaknesses of that particular set up.

This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:

6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.

Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.

As your rule is written I could have multiple iron sights or multiple red dots. I regularly see Tac-Iron shooters with either JP sights on the side of their handguard, or another front post closer in on the barrel zeroed for close range. Are they not going to be allowed to use that set up either?

Do you want to condition the people who actually carry rifles with red dots to just stop if their dots die while shooting your match? I realize 3 gun is a game, but if we are going to divorce ourselves from all sense of practicality, why are we even shooting at targets that are vaguely shaped like humans in scenarios often based to some degree on real world events?

As a dead dot is the most likely scenario, zeroing with the dot in between the irons is what most people should be doing. Removing the red dot entirely just screwed the zero at range.

Matches stop being both intellectually interesting and fun when I have to think about rules about how I can actually use my equipment on a stage that wouldn't apply anywhere else not being able to flip up a back up iron sight when my sight dies or gets trashed is in the same category of absurdity as not being able to rest on a vertical grip directly on a barricade or go prone off mag cinched mags. If you don't want people doing it, simply don't allow that equipment in whatever division rather than putting stipulations on it.

I would tend to agree, that most if not all Iron sight shooters do not have a back up set of irons on their gun just in case. So keeping with the trend a SINGLE sight system was instituted in the original thought. Its up to you to decide how much trust you wish to place in electronics, you can also go with a non battery reflex sight or a reticle sight and not have to rely on electronics totally. if you feel a optic sight is the way to go then why would you NEED back up irons?????????

trapr

Because shit happens, and if your stuff is going to break it will be at a match. Aside from dots failing, if the lens gets filled with mud (take a fall) or sand (Parma dust storm comes to mind) or rain (Tiger Valley hurrinado) the fastest thing to do is rip it off the gun and keep going with irons (though if you did zero with the dot in place, it will shift slightly, still better than NO sight picture).