Rule Modification

[Brian Payne]

I like the idea as the USPSA rules have it. Iron sights and/or 1X mounted anywhere you choose.

I can shoot long range fairly well with iron sights as long as they are the more precision type of globe sight, but this same sight slows me down on the close hoser targets. I must not be alone in this because I have seen other iron sighted shooters having a seperate set of irons mounted on the handguard for close range work. If I were allowed to place an off-set red dot on the rifle for the close targets and leave the precision sights mounted for the longer shots, I would consider shooting the iron sight division.

But I have to admit that I would never run a set up like this in my squad car. I guess the tactical meter would be pegged at the "Gamer" area of the guage.

This is one of the reasons that I like not having an umbrella rule set for 3-gun. The upcoming Ozarks shoot has their rules a little different than what the 3-gun Nationals had for this division. I like the idea of the match director for that match, having the right to write the rules as they see fit. It won't be long before you will find out if the participants like the rules based on number of shooters in that division.

[wgnoyes]

How many M4's are in use right now with a co-witnessed Aimpoint or Eotech mounted on the weaver rail in place of the carry handle, with a fold-down rear sight behind it and the standard M16 post sight up front on the gas block? Sounds real world to me!

[Stlhead]

This is the problem I see with allowing more than one sighting system. This is a competition, not real life. I can see guys with EOtech set for the long range and j dots on a 45 for the close stuff. Is this legit?? Why not have 3 or 4 red dots as long as they are 1X. And all you guys that keep talking about "real world" rifles set ups, Ill see ya on my next deployment.....

I would not know the real world if it hit me in the face. I don't think anyone has said that more than one 1x optic should be allowed on rifles in HM or limited. The bulk of the conversation seems to be if in addition to the single 1x optic, irons should be allowed, in line or offset from the 1x optic. I say that irons are not optics and as such have been largely ignored by the rules, I see no reason to change that now. I do think that extra stage points should be awarded for style. If your rifle has a hood ornament on it, or if you make a particularly entertaining comment during your execution of the stage the rest of your squad should be able to award some sort of bonus based on how entertaining you where (I am thinking of a certain fellow from Nova Scotia).

[Sterling White]

This is the problem I see with allowing more than one sighting system. This is a competition, not real life. I can see guys with EOtech set for the long range and j dots on a 45 for the close stuff. Is this legit?? Why not have 3 or 4 red dots as long as they are 1X. And all you guys that keep talking about "real world" rifles set ups.....

hmmmm....over the past several years I've seen dots mounted on service rifles.

[kellyn]

And all you guys that keep talking about "real world" rifles set ups, Ill see ya on my next deployment.....

What? I might get hurt. I prefer to preach about tactical rifles from the safety of the internet.

[sono]

I've read the entire thread. Damn, I missed something somewhere. I kinda thought this was for fun and a GAME. I've run irons since I started 5 or so years ago. I like running irons and the challenge they present. I'm sure RDS has there own set of short comings. I don't like the rule changes but whatever. I'll keep running irons and see how it shakes out.

The only things I can say is why? Some talk about real world or combat. I don't know about either but never saw troops with big comps, decked out Edge's, speed holsters, or alot of the stuff we use. Kinda like NASCAR isn't stock car racing anymore. I like when jj said if RDS are like irons then put them on everything. Seems fair to me. Like I said I'm no expert or whatever. I'll embrace the change and play the game. If the new rules drive me to an RDS or optic so be it. I just want to play!

Don't flame me

[SinistralRifleman]

This is the problem I see with allowing more than one sighting system. This is a competition, not real life. I can see guys with EOtech set for the long range and j dots on a 45 for the close stuff. Is this legit??

Logical fallacy, slippery slope. No one here had advocated multiple red dots in Tac-Iron/Limited.

We are advocating IF you allow red dots in Tac-Iron a BUIS inline with the Iron sights to be used at the shooters discretion naturally goes along with that. If you don't want people using BUIS without RO permission simply don't allow red dots in your tac-iron division.

And all you guys that keep talking about "real world" rifles set ups, Ill see ya on my next deployment.....

Thank you for your service.

We can't argue about the practicality of various equipment because we've not deployed with it; good to know. Rather than attack the merits of the arguments, you choose to attack the people presenting the arguments. That's a rather weak way to logically defend your position.

I don't need to deploy to know that the M68 + Matech BUIS is an issued set up. The use of Red Dots with BUIS on over the past 8 years is well documented in all forms of media and in open sources of government purchase contracts. It is also well documented and advocated by former active duty personnel that are now private trainers.

M4 type carbines are the most common rifle in civilian, LE, and military use presently. Red dot sights with a Back Up Iron Sight are the most common configuration in civilian, LE, and military hands. Aimpoints and EOtechs are issue optics with Issued back up iron sights. Some of the issued back ups like the MATECH or KAC have elevation adjustment capability.

Frankly I'm surprised to see "This is a game" attitude from someone who is active duty. Some of my Mil and LE friends will absolutely not participate in competition shooting. The main reason they say is games require them to do things that would condition them to respond contrary to their training (i.e. ask permission to fold up a BUIS, when they would immediately do so IRL). The more asinine rules like that I see, the more I understand where they are coming from.

[bdpaz]

The only things I can say is why?

Because there are many people out there who own rifles with a red dot and backup iron sights and this gives them a place to use them in competition. This isn't about sitting around trying to decide how to integrate some brand new technology into 3 gun, it is about how to find a place for a very common rifle configuration. I don't really have an opinion on whether or not tac iron is the place for them, but it seems silly to not want to let people shoot what they have because other divisions are more artificially defined with guns that are built to fit a division.

[Kill_Switch]

There is a definite need for the addition of RDS for limited/Tac-Scope. I've been shooting 3-gun for only a few years now, but I often feel outclassed having to shoot against guys with variable power or magnified optics using just an EOTech or an Aimpoint. I'm not the type to complain about things being unfair or whatever, I just shot in Tac-Scope because that was where I fit in. Why would I put myself at a disadvantage in competition like this? Well for one, those kinds of optics can be cost prohibitive as has been stated earlier in this thread, second it's because that rifle configuration is what I would, and have, actually used in the real world. It can VERY clearly be seen by anyone with even the slightest google-fu that such a set up is what our, and many other countries armed forces for that matter, are currently using. Part of why I shoot competition is because it's one of very few venues that I can actually practice practical skills in a way that allows me to track my performance and objectively test my gear, my techniques, and myself. Why would I run a different optic than a red dot?

I don't mind shooting in Tac-Scope, in all honesty. I shoot competition because I like shooting competition, but it would be really nice to have a division in which shooting a rifle like mine is actually competitive and I'm not at a disadvantage right off the bat. Why shouldn't there be a place where I, and the many people who feel the same way I do, can compete against each other and not get stomped because of our equipment choice or restriction due to cost? I don't have any hard numbers on it, but I don't think it's a stretch to say the red dots are one of the most popular optics today, why not welcome them into this rather than grouping them with magnified optics which have an entirely different purpose?

The idea that I can't use my BUIS when I deem fit is laughable. So is the fear that someone might use them in a non-conventional way. So what if someone decides to have red dot up top and irons at the 45 or the other way around? I can't conceive of any possible way that it would throw off the scale so much that it would ruin the division. Using BUIS in conjunction with a red dot not just as a back up is also a relevant technique that has a lot of merit. Running a red dot with the BUIS sights in the up position all the time is endorsed by several high end trainers including Larry Vickers.

Pictures for reference:

Older pic, training with Benny Coolie, running an EOtech

My current rifle configuration, with an Aimpoint CompM4

Troops using a similar sight set up in Iraq:

My link

[Chuck Anderson]

It's funny, I always thought my work rifle, with Aimpoint Comp M4 and Troy BUIS was a real world rifle. I guess I thought using it while getting shot at, pointing it at suspects, clearing houses, etc. made it "real world" enough. I guess I will never be real world since I went into law enforcement instead of the military. Oh well, clearly there is only one "real world" and I'm not a part of it.

Again, I can only speak to USPSA's rule and the thought that I put in behind voting for it. It wasn't so much for the crowd at Nationals. It wasn't for the Uber-gamer shooters with Globe sights, and target rears. My thoughts were that it would be more inclusive and bring a new group of people into shooting three gun. The tens of thousands that went out and bought MSR's over the last couple years, many of which put on red dots, but because they think that is the tactical thing to do. (mainly because they see every soldier with one on TV). Sure some of those red dots are actually ACOGs, but what do the folks just getting in know. And $200 for a red dot is a lot better than $1200 for an ACOG.

To be honest the new rule at Ozark doesn't effect me personally. I could care less. I'm not shooting irons there, I'm not even shooting Tactical. Even if I was though it would be a very simple matter to just use one of the many AR's I have and set it up to be legal at this match. I've got the gear and the time on the range available that this really wouldn't be a problem for me. The problem comes from the many, many folks who don't have either completed or enough parts around to build two dozen AR's. And on an even bigger level from the people that want to get into three gun and ask about equipment. "What do I need to get started three gun?" Then they get a 30 minute long answer with the punchline being, every match has different rules, every match has different equipment requirements. It all depends on where you want to shoot, what you need to put your money towards.

If I had my choice I think it would be great if all the three gun matches got together on equipment and safety rules. I don't really care about scoring, or target engagement or targets, but it would be nice if you went to each match knowing what condition a dropped gun needed to be in, or that your TI rifle was going to be legal at each place. But that's just my hopes.

[Charles Bond]

If I had my choice I think it would be great if all the three gun matches got together on equipment and safety rules. I don't really care about scoring, or target engagement or targets, but it would be nice if you went to each match knowing what condition a dropped gun needed to be in, or that your TI rifle was going to be legal at each place. But that's just my hopes.

Well said Chuck.

We are likely a year away from 3GN stepping in and requiring some form of standardization for their matches simply because they are going to get some complaints from the top shooters in these matches about the wide degree of variation of the rules.

[bigbrowndog]

Real World???????? that was a show back in the eighties or early nineties and it got cancelled!!!!

We all live in a "REAL" world, if you don't then you have either escaped from your room or they haven't caught you yet.

This is a "sport" that only vaguely resembles what happens when people with guns get together. It has evolved from its origins so much that it barely resembles its beginnings, much in the way that your children may outwardly look like you but can very definitely have different veiwpoints, outlooks or behaviors. Is it Bad? or Good?....time has the ONLY answer to that question, for right now 1x optics are in Limited/Standard division, USPSA has seen fit to also allow a second set of sights, some others have not, So what!!!! USPSA and IPSC do not agree with each other in the rulesets currently in use, who cares!!!

Its a GAME!!! and its played by us in a "real world" because thats where we live!! if you can't separate game from life and death then perhaps you need to go back to your room or check in to one.

Oh, and if this is interpretted as condoscending then so be it.

trapr

Edited September 22, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[J.Schmitt]

Again, from a Tac Iron shooters standpoint, I am in a wait and see mode for the new rules.

I know that at I have seen new shooters arrive at our local matches with Aims and Eo's. I have also noted that within a few matches those seem to disappear and get replaced after those shooters start to look at the 1 to 4 style optics that some of the others have. I agree that many buy the 1X electronics because they think it is capable of everything.

Question, Is it the 1X sight that accounts for a what some feel is a "bad taste in the mouth" effect after a new shooter begins to attend matches. Or is it a bigger and normal progression where that shooter had trouble with the shotgun and handgun as well. We all started somewhere, well most of us, and that was nearer to the bottom. It is a leaning curve.

Question for "Kill_Switch", Have you stuck to the the 1X exclusively or have you tested out some other scopes or a magnifier. Oh and welcome to the forum.

IS THE LACK OF PERCEIVED PERFORMANCE BY A NEW SHOOTER WITH AN AIM OR EO A RESULT OF USER ERROR AND NOT HAVING THE SIGHT DIALED IN.

My real world rifle consists of an M16A1 with the triangle handguards. No upgrades allowed.

Jay

[sono]

bdpaz, You've got a good point. We don't want anyone leaving a match (most importantly thier first) with a bad taste. My first match I showed up with an ak, HK USP in .45, and a mossy pump gun. I got my butt kicked but had a great time and learned. My second ever 3gun match was the first Fort Benning. Again I was ill equiped but learned even more. If you want to be competative you've got to get the correct gear. Hockey pads don't work well in football. Bro, your right I want everyone to have fun and come out and play. Like Jay I'm running irons til I see how bad I get stomped by them.

Ryan

[Mike P]

bdpaz, You've got a good point. We don't want anyone leaving a match (most importantly thier first) with a bad taste. My first match I showed up with an ak, HK USP in .45, and a mossy pump gun. I got my butt kicked but had a great time and learned. My second ever 3gun match was the first Fort Benning. Again I was ill equiped but learned even more. If you want to be competative you've got to get the correct gear. Hockey pads don't work well in football. Bro, your right I want everyone to have fun and come out and play. Like Jay I'm running irons til I see how bad I get stomped by them.

Ryan

Neither you nor any other top iron shooter is going to get beat by an inferior shooter with a RDS.

What this will do is to give some of the newer guys a place to compete with what they already have without being at a significant disadvantage equipment-wise. There are probably a lot of shooters now in tac optics who CAN shoot irons, but probably won't come back once they see (or not see) how small distant targets look without 4x.lol

[Kill_Switch]

Again, from a Tac Iron shooters standpoint, I am in a wait and see mode for the new rules.

I know that at I have seen new shooters arrive at our local matches with Aims and Eo's. I have also noted that within a few matches those seem to disappear and get replaced after those shooters start to look at the 1 to 4 style optics that some of the others have. I agree that many buy the 1X electronics because they think it is capable of everything.

Question, Is it the 1X sight that accounts for a what some feel is a "bad taste in the mouth" effect after a new shooter begins to attend matches. Or is it a bigger and normal progression where that shooter had trouble with the shotgun and handgun as well. We all started somewhere, well most of us, and that was nearer to the bottom. It is a leaning curve.

Question for "Kill_Switch", Have you stuck to the the 1X exclusively or have you tested out some other scopes or a magnifier. Oh and welcome to the forum.

IS THE LACK OF PERCEIVED PERFORMANCE BY A NEW SHOOTER WITH AN AIM OR EO A RESULT OF USER ERROR AND NOT HAVING THE SIGHT DIALED IN.

My real world rifle consists of an M16A1 with the triangle handguards. No upgrades allowed.

Jay

Jay,

Price is a limiting factor for me. When I put together the cost of the red dot with the magnifier it put's it out of my price range. I'm currently a college student so as I'm sure a lot of you know, cash can be tight. I'm only able to shoot if funds allow it. The most money I've ever spent specifically for 3-gun was my Nova because I really have a hard time dropping the kind of money it takes to get a semi shotgun because I'm only going to be using it for 3-gun. Because of limited funds, the gear that I have has to fill my primary role first.

As for your other question, I think it can be in part due to new users not having their sights set up correctly, but I wouldn't exclusively limit it to that. There could be any number of reasons why someone has a lack of perceived performance. One of them could be someone with "working gun" or "real world gun" that is set up to handle a very large spectrum of engagement looking at their score in comparison to someone with a gun that is set up specifically for the challenges that are presented at a match. I think someone here has mentioned that they often feel that stages are often set up around the types of equipment that most people are using. For someone with a working gun to be judged against someone with a purpose built tool it can be frustrating. I'm not talking about national level matches either, I'm talking about local small matches. That's what I shoot pretty much exclusively. That's where this sport really happens. A change in the rules like this can really boost attendance of military, law enforcement and defense minded everyday joes. If we can make it apparent to the military, LE and defense minded crowd that this has relevance to them it only furthers our legitimacy. Don't we want more of these kinds of people as part of our sport? The more people that come to matches the better off the gun community is as a whole. They will be learning safe, effective use of their firearms in a fun and encouraging environment. We can encourage more people to get out and shoot or we can wall ourselves up in an ivory tower and make this kind of shooting for an exclusive elite that can afford what we arbitrarily call the "right" equipment. Anything we do that limits attendance only ultimately hurts us.

[Sterling White]

Sir Charles said...

We are likely a year away from 3GN stepping in and requiring some form of standardization for their matches simply because they are going to get some complaints from the top shooters in these matches about the wide degree of variation of the rules.

Huh? 3GN...your kidding right? Because they bring $$$ to the game?

The best rules which define "all divisions" are those that can be written on 2-single sheets of paper size 11 font. If you have to write more than that then you have written too much.

clerical edit

kill switch said...

Anything we do that limits attendance only ultimately hurts us.

Holy crap man! It was hard getting a slot into ALL matches except Nats this year because of the $$$ being offered up for the 3GN. The attendance at all big matches changed dramitically this year. Edited September 23, 2010 by Sterling White

[SinistralRifleman]

kill switch said...

Anything we do that limits attendance only ultimately hurts us.

Holy crap man! It was hard getting a slot into ALL matches except Nats this year because of the $$$ being offered up for the 3GN. The attendance at all big matches changed dramitically this year.

He's talking about club level matches that happen once a month, not nationals. I doubt very many people get into National level events as new shooters. Club and regional level events is where 3 gun needs to grow; most people will never attend a national level event.

[Sterling White]

trapr's funny!

We all live in a "REAL" world

Is that your world or my world?

He's talking about club level matches that happen once a month, not nationals.

sin...copy that

All the majors filled this year well in advance of the match. This is a change from the past were a person (like myself) could wait, signup a couple of weeks out, and get in; for example the Ironman. Not the case anymore

Edited September 23, 2010 by Sterling White

[abn-rgr]

Frankly I'm surprised to see "This is a game" attitude from someone who is active duty. Some of my Mil and LE friends will absolutely not participate in competition shooting. The main reason they say is games require them to do things that would condition them to respond contrary to their training (i.e. ask permission to fold up a BUIS, when they would immediately do so IRL). The more asinine rules like that I see, the more I understand where they are coming from.

The difference is, I know its a game. Thats why we made the rules the way we did. I would never tell one of my Joes you cant use your back up until I tell you too. I can switch gears when needed between real world and a game we play to see who is the best. Here is the bottom line for all the folks who dont like the way we wrote up the rules. When you run your own match, you can have the rules anyway you want. Thats the beauty of our "GAME". I may not like all the rules of every match, but I dont run them so who am I to complain. If it wasnt for people who run matches,we wouldnt have a place to play the "GAME".

[kellyn]

I believe that we have had 2 major matches now with some variation of this rule modification (USPSA Multigun and Ozarks) and they were both won by Kurt Miller, who I'm pretty sure used 1 set of iron sights.

So much for the arms race of needing to have multiple red dots and irons on the rifle.

Also look at the number of Tac Iron shooters at Ozark (27 I think). Much higher than pre 1X optics at other mathces: 10 at RM3G, 5 at Blue Ridge, and 16 at FNH-USA.

[Bryan 45]

Any tally of 1x shooters for the Ozark?

[Sterling White]

If it wasnt for people who run matches,we wouldnt have a place to play the "GAME".

[SinistralRifleman]

http://www.riopractical.com/text/rs.pdf more match results for the sake of discussion.

Stage 1 = long range stage with steel at 150-300 yards

Stage 2 = close range rifle paper stage

Stage 3 = paper targets and no shoots out to 50 yards with rifle.

Stage 4 = Pistol or Shotgun

There were a lot more red dots present in Tac-Iron (aka Tac-Limited) this month. I used my aimpoint M4 2MOA again on 14.5" with permanent flash hider and won the division. My long range stage time was close to many in Tac-Scope this time; I think I did better this time because the steel was contrasted against the background better (seeing what Trapr is often talking about) in addition to having more trigger time at distance with the system

[JaeOne3345]

NBice job. I just purchased a 1-4x with a mount but I may have to put my eotech xps back on.

Edited October 11, 2010 by JaeOne3345