3 Gun match Safety

[sbgruen]

We started adding 3 gun matches to our pistol shoots lately and although everyone understands the pistol safety area and holster rule there was some laxity in the rifle handling around our club. I looked at a few of the safety rules listed on USPSA and 3 gun websites and am looking for some input into how clubs handle long gun handling while not at the line.

The rule indicate muzzles up or guns cased while transporting between stages. Is that what most clubs do in practice?

We are currently looking to go with requiring all long guns to be cased until a load and make ready command is given. Seems uncased guns ended up getting "looked at" and "handled" with their muzzles not up too often.

Open for comments and suggestions. Thanks

[gerritm]

We are required to have yellow chamber safety flags in both our shotguns and rifles when transporting them before and between the stages. They are removed by the RO when we load and make ready and are reinstalled by the RO after unload and show clear.It is a good visual for anyone. Most of us use range carts and casing the guns is not practical.

[jtielke]

Chamber flags for guns not in cases. Been to matches that required muzzle up, down, or both. Another good thing is to have gun racks or tables against the side berm on stages so people without carts have a place to set their guns. Otherwise competitors will be laying them on the ground or flat on other tables which means the muzzle won't be up or down. That or they will lean them against tables or other structures and they can fall over. As for people with uncased guns not keeping the muzzle up/down that rule needs to be made clear during the shooters meeting and enforced.

[Jim Norman]

Yellow or Orange Safety Flags are a good idea. Casing and uncasing at each stage will be way to time-consuming.

Have a rifle rack and a shotgun prep table. Have ALL competitor rack their rifles when they arrive on the stage. Only allow them to remove the rifle when they are called to the line. Shotgun Prep Table, All competitors go to the table on arrival and place their SG. RO gathers the whole crew, everyone removes the safety indicator, closes the bolt on an empty chamber and loads the tube. Place the gun on the table and LEAVE IT ALONE.

Only problem is when a squad shows up to shoot and the previous squad is still there. In that case, you have guns on carts and guns in cases, Simple, LEAVE THEM ALONE until the active squad clears out.

Muzzle up is safe for the local group, any discharge goes up and away, it does however comedown somewhere! All guns with flags. There is s really nice shotgun chamber block available now that holds the bolt open, you can even pick up the gun by this indicator! Saw it at BRM3G, I'll try to find my info and post it. There is also a really nice safety block and flag for the AR platform, inserts into the magwell and a flag sticks out the ejection port, Bolt cannot close.

As for leaving the range, follow all the same procedures, IFULSC, ICHD, obviously you cannot holster a rifle or SG, so the RO escorts you to the racks and table, or to your cases which should be at the side of the range and you either rack or bag your gun. Then LEAVE IT ALONE.

Jim

[Greg Bell]

Chamber flagged at our club, we keep a stash of them to sell at cost to those who forgot or didn't have one.

[sbgruen]

Chamber flags seem to be the way to go. I assume that even with the chamber flag it is muzzles up or down but they can be uncased?

Can a AR flag work for Shotguns or are shotgun flags special one?

Thanks again

[Greg Bell]

The yellow AR style flags work just fine in shotguns

[Charles Bond]

The yellow AR style flags work just fine in shotguns

Yes they do and if you buy the softer plastic they will last. The brittle plastic ones the NRA sells will not last a match.

[Greg Bell]

I think we bought ours at creedmoorsports $1.95 ea, cheapest we found.

[shooterready]

Yellow nylon rope works as well. Just don't feed it into a hot chamber after ULSC. Run the nylon rope down the mag well or out the bottom of the loading port of your SG with it also sticking out of the chamber with bolt closed.

[Benelli Chick]

Arrendondo makes hard, but not brittle, flags for both rifle and shotgun.

They work very well!

I shot with Ralph at a match where a little piece of that rope got into the works and ruined his stage. He had forgotten to bring his own flags. I don't think he'll ever do that again! I suspect he carries 2 or 3 sets of his flags with him always.

Those brittle plastic ones can break and fall in your gun as well.

If the plastic is too soft, it melts.

Denise

P.S.

Flags aren't really necessary. Open action. Just be sure you have racks or tables where the long guns can be pointed into berm. JJ always wonders why we don't need flags on pistols...(Edited to point out that that was sarcasm. The real question is why do we need flags on long guns and not on pistols? No flags on any of them is fine.)

Edited July 13, 2010 by Benelli Chick

[Outsydlooknin75]

Want cheap and numerous flags ?

Buy a spool of sting for a weed eater, and a roll of electrical tape ........

Cut a length of line and tape the ends together. You now have a chamber flag.

[Jim Norman]

Because with your pistol it is in and had better remain in the holster! (Ans to why we don't need flags in pistols for those that might be wondering.)

If we had a holster for our rifles and shotguns and could apply the same rules to them that we do to a pistol it would be great, but we can't, so we are saddled with having to use flags and racks and tables and prescribed methods of carry.

Jim

[DocMcG]

Just b/c it has not been mentioned yet. One of the monthly matches I shoot has a rule that states that there will be no handling/manipulation of firearms except for in a "safe" area used for maintenance, gun work issues, fellow shooter wants to look at something etc. unless moving to or from the line. The area is away from everything and has berms/logs of its own for safety.

This particular match allow you to choose: 1) Chamber flag; or 2) Bolt locked open. Most shooters use carts, but racks are available at each stage.

Cheers,

Kyle

[The Guy]

We are required to have yellow chamber safety flags in both our shotguns and rifles when transporting them before and between the stages. They are removed by the RO when we load and make ready and are reinstalled by the RO after unload and show clear.It is a good visual for anyone. Most of us use range carts and casing the guns is not practical.

if yu have a range cart can you post a pic to give a better idea of how i can configure one myslf. thanks

Guy

[ac4wordplay]

To the OP:

I've noticed this at many 3gun/Multi-gun matches too. Competitors often do things with uncased long guns (handle, sweep people, change muzzle orientation, etc.) that they would *NEVER* do with a pistol. Those who use carts seem to be some of the greatest offenders. (Not everyone, nor even most, who uses a cart is an offender - I'm not bashing cart users.)

Jim Norman's detailed procedure can work *IF*:

- all the range staff get it right every time

- all necessary equipment (racks, tables, etc.) is available and set up

- all the competitors are made aware of the procedures and are able to follow the directions with minimal supervision (Jim repeats "LEAVE IT ALONE")

too often I see competitors unable to "LEAVE IT ALONE", insufficient equipment (not enough (racks, tables, etc.) for this procedure - which leads competitors to find other (less appropriate) places to ground their long guns, and poor staff oversight/explanation to shooter/enforcement of rules. (None of this is directed at Jim's matches, I've never had the pleasure of attending his and I expect that he has none of these problems.)

I respectfully disagree with those who have posted against uncasing the shooter's long gun/s at "Make Ready", and re-casing immediately after "If Clear, Hammer Down" (have a shooter's buddy ready with the case - a case caddy - it helps things run smoothly). It can be done without adding additional time to the stage. If adopted, it should be announced/explained in advance as well as during the walk-through, with reminders as necessary until your competitors have this ingrained for your match. This method seems to be the most successful at keeping individuals from handling long guns outside of their course of fire or the designated safety area.

Shooting 3gun is fun. Having muzzles pointed at me is NOT FUN. "Hey, don't worry about it - it's not loaded" doesn't make me feel better (I'm sensitive that way).

Respectfully,

ac

[gerritm]

We are required to have yellow chamber safety flags in both our shotguns and rifles when transporting them before and between the stages. They are removed by the RO when we load and make ready and are reinstalled by the RO after unload and show clear.It is a good visual for anyone. Most of us use range carts and casing the guns is not practical.

if yu have a range cart can you post a pic to give a better idea of how i can configure one myslf. thanks

Guy

Here is the cart I use. This is a picture from the manufacturer. I use this cart, but it is set up a little different. These are hard to find. I purchased it thru Sportsman Guide for $79.99. A lot of guys pick up a used jogging stroller from Sal. Army or 2nd hand stores and build it themselves. But this will give you an idea.

[Outsydlooknin75]

I have a problem with bagging at IULSC, I dont like to put a hot weapon in a bag. I like to give them time to cool down prior to bagging. Just my thoughts on bagging immediately.

[ac4wordplay]

I have a problem with bagging at IULSC, I dont like to put a hot weapon in a bag. I like to give them time to cool down prior to bagging. Just my thoughts on bagging immediately.

One competitor who uses a suppressor once melted some of the interior foam padding of his case (or something like that); the occasional suppressor user can now request accommodations. Aside from that, there haven't been any issues with the procedure (it's been in use for several years) at the monthly (independent) match in the area. YMMV.

Best,

ac

[RiggerJJ]

Because with your pistol it is in and had better remain in the holster! (Ans to why we don't need flags in pistols for those that might be wondering.)

If we had a holster for our rifles and shotguns and could apply the same rules to them that we do to a pistol it would be great, but we can't, so we are saddled with having to use flags and racks and tables and prescribed methods of carry.

Jim

The "holster" for long guns is the bag or cart. all unbagging/uncarting and rebagging/recarting is done pointed into a side berm. One person at a time, when called to the start position, and after finished straight back to the bag/cart (leave the bag open for cooling, then zip it shut before transporting to the next stage). pre-loading SG is done on a table and the SG is left there until called to the start position. after shooting the stage back to the bag/cart. Chamber flags are not necessary, open bolt is.

simple & safe.

jj

Edited July 13, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[Jadeslade]

Yeah-open bolt is good. After reading this, I realize why I like the Larue Match so much.

Never muzzle anybody anywhere. Not in the gun store, not in the car, not at the car, not at the range, not on the stage, not after the stage, not in the motel, no where.Pay attention to your muzzle until it disappears-right into your bag or case or cart. Have fun.

Chamber flags always get lost.

[55fmj]

We don't use flags at our match. Bolt open and muzzle up. We have a designated loading table at each stage that faces into the berm. Rifle and shotgun are placed on the table to load before the shooter is called to the line. We also have several racks for people to "store" their guns in if they do not have a cart. No gun handling allowed at all unless you are on the designated loading table.

[chendersby]

If you are running a USPSA match here is the rules:

5.2 Carry And Storage, Competitor Equipment

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their firearm unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1). The competitor’s long guns must be unloaded and carried

or stored in one of the following conditions (see Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.1.1 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is

clearly visible externally to the gun or carry in a case at all times

when the rifle is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities

permitted under Rule 2.4.1 and 5.2.2).

5.2 1.2 Carried/shouldered or slung from the shoulder with the rifle reasonably

vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically

upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made

clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner

5.2.1.3 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the rifle is carried

reasonably vertical). Alternatively, the rifle may be transported

or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical,

in a mobile rack or carrier, provided the firearm complies

with Rule 5.2.1and is only placed or removed under the supervision

of a Range Officer, or while in a Safety Area, or when

being transferred directly to/from a staging area as described in

Rule 5.2.2.

5.2.1.4 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of,

and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer,

will the rifle be loaded (see Rule 10.5.13) or have empty detachable

magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the

insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a

Safety Area.

5.2.2 Staging Areas

5.2.2.1 Each stage must provide a place for competitors to place their long

guns. It may take the form of a rack or table or both. Tables must be

oriented near a berm so that no one can walk in front of it. All firearms

in the staging area must have their actions locked open or have chamber

flags on a closed bolt or be cased.

5.2.2.2 When the competitor transports his firearm to the line from the staging

area or back to the staging area after being cleared it must be pointed

vertically with the action locked open.

5.2.2.3 The firearm must be either fitted with a chamber flag or cased before

leaving the staging area.

5.2.3 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices designed for that

purpose. A competitor may also carry additional ammunition, magazines,

or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them

without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary spare

ammunition, magazines, or speed loading devices.

[prreed10]

We use rifle racks and encourage chamber flags. At our next match, I am going to require flags and provide them at cost. I am also going to have to get pretty strict on the muzzle thing.

We get a lot of "what mount are you running" or "what handguards are those" between competitors, which leads to picking the rifle out of the rack and sometimes muzzle violations. In our next shooters meeting and even in the email for the match, I am going to point this out and remind everyone that this is grounds for a DQ.

[ac4wordplay]

If you are running a USPSA match here is the rules:

...

This may be helpful to some.

I sure hope it's read, understood, and thoroughly followed by all competitors who attend MG Nationals.

Thanks Chris.

best,

ac