Saiga Shotguns - Opinions

[teemch5]

Question for you guys: What is everyone's feeling on the Saiga Shotgun. They are very cool but I really have no feel for there function and reliability. I get the sense that if you go the way of the Saiga you need to put in the money to get it set up correctly and fuctioning properly. If this is true who do you recommend to do the work? R and R Racing offers a Saiga Tactical version but it seems a bit pricey. Anyone have any experience with them and their products? Getting the itch and don't want to go off half cocked....Thanks

[DyNo!]

I'm running mine with 12rd magazines, a mid-barreled comp, red-dot, and polychoke.

I don't feel I need all the snazzy upgrades and I can get away with spending less than $1k.

Edited July 2, 2010 by DyNo!

[ken hebert]

I went with a conversion from Jim Lambert at Firebird Precision. Its dual midbarrel comps, threaded for Rem chokes, one piece magwell and AR style mag release and safeties, AR style A2 stock, left side charging handle, low friction coating inside the reciever and all moving parts. Different for me is the fact that I chose sights versus a red dot, as I find it easier to track flying birds and dont feel I give up anything on speed.

The gun runs flawlessly! Feed them a quality shell (good crimp and tough walls) because the action of a Saiga is kinda violent and rough and they will return the favor.

[Chuck Anderson]

I used Robbie's (From R&R) personal Saiga to shoot the MGM Ironman last month. I was amazed at that shotgun. It's a game changer for me. I'm normally much slower and deliberate when shooting Tactical SG, because I don't have the ammo to spare and I'm not very fast at reloading. I shot the Saiga like I would a rifle, fast and with extra rounds to spare. I ran into about a half dozen malfuntions, out of about 300 rounds fired. Each was with Federal Slug or Buck, which I knew the gun didn't like, I just didn't have time to get anything else. The nice thing was with the left side charge handle, each malf was cleared with a quick yank. Reloading was crazy fast, going from a 20 round mag, to a 15, 12 or 5 depending on what I needed for ammo. The gun really impressed me. Shooting slugs at 50-100 was just like shooting a rifle. Put the dot on and pull the trigger twice. Both went right where they were supposed to. I think I only had 4 make up shots with slugs the whole match, and two of them were on the spinner. As soon as I got back I called Robbie and told him to make me one. I don't know enough about the different makers, R&R, Firebird, Jack Travers, and others, to say one is better than the others. But I like Robbie's well enough to drop money on it.

[jrmock]

I have been happy with mine. I did my own conversion and have mine still fairly stock (no comps, magwells, etc). After a few hundred rounds of break in it runs 100% with the right ammo. I have found that the Remington Sureshot 1 1/8oz from Academy to be consistent in my gun. The ligher shot (1 oz, 7/8 oz) does not work well and FTEs.

I shot in a match last weekend that had one pure shotgun stage. 12 short range steel targets (with a little walking) with only 4 shells in the gun to start. My time was ~13 seconds and all the tube gun guys were >25 seconds. Now I am not that fast and no really fast tube gun guys were there but that gives you a feeling on speed.

[Alaskapopo]

I went with a conversion from Jim Lambert at Firebird Precision. Its dual midbarrel comps, threaded for Rem chokes, one piece magwell and AR style mag release and safeties, AR style A2 stock, left side charging handle, low friction coating inside the reciever and all moving parts. Different for me is the fact that I chose sights versus a red dot, as I find it easier to track flying birds and dont feel I give up anything on speed.

The gun runs flawlessly! Feed them a quality shell (good crimp and tough walls) because the action of a Saiga is kinda violent and rough and they will return the favor.

Any ammo you recommend in particular? Thanks in advance.

Pat

[smokshwn]

I went with a conversion from Jim Lambert at Firebird Precision. Its dual midbarrel comps, threaded for Rem chokes, one piece magwell and AR style mag release and safeties, AR style A2 stock, left side charging handle, low friction coating inside the reciever and all moving parts. Different for me is the fact that I chose sights versus a red dot, as I find it easier to track flying birds and dont feel I give up anything on speed.

The gun runs flawlessly! Feed them a quality shell (good crimp and tough walls) because the action of a Saiga is kinda violent and rough and they will return the favor.

Any ammo you recommend in particular? Thanks in advance.

Pat

Mine has run very well with Winchester AA's, Remington STS', Winchester Target, Winchester Heavy Game, Remington Sport Loads, Estate, Remington Heavy Game, and Wally World Win, Fed, & Rem. Also have had good reliability with Winchester Winlite, Wolf, Brenneke, and Federal slugs. With a mod choke the Winlite's are like little lasers.

The key is making sure you can't deform the crimp with a decent squeeze of your fingers if you can then its a no go. Also on the cheaper version of shells its sometimes a good idea to try to keep them out of high heat(100+) as the plastic does get a little easier to deform. This is where it causes some feed issues as the crimp deforms and gets hung up.

[Loves2Shoot]

We coat R&R's shotguns, and I have had had the chance to have a few of them. His current version, described by Chuck, is simply sweet to shoot and handles very well. There is a big difference from doing add ons and have a fully built S12 from someone who knows how to build one. From the numer of S12's we coat, I would venture to say that R&R hit a home run with his S12's.

[Chuck Anderson]

We coat R&R's shotguns, and I have had had the chance to have a few of them. His current version, described by Chuck, is simply sweet to shoot and handles very well. There is a big difference from doing add ons and have a fully built S12 from someone who knows how to build one. From the numer of S12's we coat, I would venture to say that R&R hit a home run with his S12's.

Scott is definitely right. On my squad at MGM there were about a half dozen Saiga's. Two were complete Robbie guns and ran great. Two were essentially stock and had multiple issues, from loading to malfunctions. Two had some of Robbie's add on parts but weren't complete guns. They were in the middle, but nowhere near the speed or reliability of the two complete guns.

I used to travel to 3-gun matches with a guy who went cheap on his equipment. Always amazed me that he would spend 3K to go to a couple big 3-Gun matches and place horribly because his stuff didn't work, instead of taking a bit of time off to get his gear sorted out.

[Wakal]

Taran Butler seems happy with his shotgun

Alex

[KentG]

I think that the saiga builders are fine for those who want to just write a check.

I have one that has been a work in progress for a while but in the last month or so I went and completely redid mine.

I find with the magwell its running well on AGP mags and the Surfire 12 rounders Im tweaking. Saigas do not like low power cheap wally world stuff. If you have a hand drill and a dremel you can do your own and will end up knowing your gun far better and how it runs.

I dont buy into the school that a home built gun cant run as well as one you spend a ton on. When someone tells me that a part like a comp has to be installed by a gunsmith on a Saiga my BS flag goes up!!

IF you do your own you may have to make a few trips to the range to get it running or it may run well right away. When my gun was stock it ran perfect with 10 round mags and like I said it runs the same now with the 10 rounders. The 12 rounders are the trick. I put AGP springs in my Surfire 12 rounders cause they are longer and Im going to the range to see if they run better but I can fall back on the AGP 10 rounders if needed.

Head over to the Saiga forums for more info and dont be afraid to take the plunge. The saiga is the shit.

[SinistralRifleman]

Let me give you guys my Saiga-12 run down. I first got into shooting these things in 2006. This was after Wakal and Fred had been using them, but well before it was cool to use one.

Names have been with held as everyone that did work on my guns made it right in the end.

Gun 1 was imported with a 17.2" barrel...it had to be sent back to RAAC under a mandatory BATF recall.

Gun 1 comes back it is ugly as hell with this welded on choke thing. I sent it to a reputable smith to be reworked into a pistol grip configuration and have a comp put in its place.

Gun 1 comes back, it now has plastic wadding shaving into the gas system making neat little hockey puck things. It goes back and forth to the smith a couple times and he gives me a new Gun, Gun 2.

Gun 2 runs great for about 1500 rounds. Then the plate that was welded on to attach the stock starts splitting off. Off it goes to the gunsmith for repair. I sold it when I got it back and got two stock Saigas Guns 3 and 4

Gun 3 runs great, and ends up serving me for almost 3 years with 9,000 rounds fired. (I will go over the maintenance log with that one later).

Gun 4 has crooked gas ports. It has intermittent failures. I never got the opportunity to fix this one. It was removed from my former place of employment and is sitting in a government warehouse somewhere.

Gun 5 is purchased to replace Gun 4. I send it off to a different reputable smith to be converted. It comes back and doesn't work (it did before). Gunsmith fixes it. When I get it back I shoot it for a while, but it doesn't run as well as Gun 3, so I sold it.

Gun 6 is purchased to replace Gun 5. Gun 6 is part of a faulty batch of imported guns with only 2 gas ports. Gun 6 is sent back, and the importer sends me Gun 7.

Gun 7 only has 3 gas ports and doesn't run that well. Out of exasperation I have my machinist press the gas block off and drill another hole. Gun runs fine now with everything I shoot through it, just like Gun 3 did.

Gun 3 having seen several years of use and 3 Ironman Matches is starting to look worse for the wear.

Factory fire control parts wore out at about 3,000 rounds

Recoil springs have been replaced 4 times.

surfaces on the bolt and barrel extension are peening over and have to be polished.

The rear trunion has shifted significantly and the top cover only has 50% engagement.

The gun once fired merely by turning the safety off

Gun 8 is purchased to replace Gun 3. Gun 8 is about 0.040" smaller in the receiver width than any of my earlier guns and it pinches AGP mags so they will not feed fast enough. It works with surefire mags though which are apparently 0.025" smaller in width than AGPs. I need to decide what I am going to do with this thing.

When Saigas, work they are AWESOME. I have won and placed in the top 3 of my division in several big matches because I was using a Saiga. I absolutely hate loading tube fed shotguns. I am however, getting sick of the maintenance cycle and going through on average 3 guns to find one that works well out of the box. If the gunsmiths can guarantee that your gun will run when you get it back from them, it may very well be worth the cost if you are lacking in patience and mechanical aptitude. All of these guns are different, even within the same batches, and you have to look at it as a project.

If you're seeing A LOT of home built or stock saigas not working, a good portion of them are probably because the guns themselves are messed up and either need to be fixed or replaced.

[KentG]

Let me give you guys my Saiga-12 run down. I first got into shooting these things in 2006. This was after Wakal and Fred had been using them, but well before it was cool to use one.

Names have been with held as everyone that did work on my guns made it right in the end.

Gun 1 was imported with a 17.2" barrel...it had to be sent back to RAAC under a mandatory BATF recall.

Gun 1 comes back it is ugly as hell with this welded on choke thing. I sent it to a reputable smith to be reworked into a pistol grip configuration and have a comp put in its place.

Gun 1 comes back, it now has plastic wadding shaving into the gas system making neat little hockey puck things. It goes back and forth to the smith a couple times and he gives me a new Gun, Gun 2.

Gun 2 runs great for about 1500 rounds. Then the plate that was welded on to attach the stock starts splitting off. Off it goes to the gunsmith for repair. I sold it when I got it back and got two stock Saigas Guns 3 and 4

Gun 3 runs great, and ends up serving me for almost 3 years with 9,000 rounds fired. (I will go over the maintenance log with that one later).

Gun 4 has crooked gas ports. It has intermittent failures. I never got the opportunity to fix this one. It was removed from my former place of employment and is sitting in a government warehouse somewhere.

Gun 5 is purchased to replace Gun 4. I send it off to a different reputable smith to be converted. It comes back and doesn't work (it did before). Gunsmith fixes it. When I get it back I shoot it for a while, but it doesn't run as well as Gun 3, so I sold it.

Gun 6 is purchased to replace Gun 5. Gun 6 is part of a faulty batch of imported guns with only 2 gas ports. Gun 6 is sent back, and the importer sends me Gun 7.

Gun 7 only has 3 gas ports and doesn't run that well. Out of exasperation I have my machinist press the gas block off and drill another hole. Gun runs fine now with everything I shoot through it, just like Gun 3 did.

Gun 3 having seen several years of use and 3 Ironman Matches is starting to look worse for the wear.

Factory fire control parts wore out at about 3,000 rounds

Recoil springs have been replaced 4 times.

surfaces on the bolt and barrel extension are peening over and have to be polished.

The rear trunion has shifted significantly and the top cover only has 50% engagement.

The gun once fired merely by turning the safety off

Gun 8 is purchased to replace Gun 3. Gun 8 is about 0.040" smaller in the receiver width than any of my earlier guns and it pinches AGP mags so they will not feed fast enough. It works with surefire mags though which are apparently 0.025" smaller in width than AGPs. I need to decide what I am going to do with this thing.

When Saigas, work they are AWESOME. I have won and placed in the top 3 of my division in several big matches because I was using a Saiga. I absolutely hate loading tube fed shotguns. I am however, getting sick of the maintenance cycle and going through on average 3 guns to find one that works well out of the box. If the gunsmiths can guarantee that your gun will run when you get it back from them, it may very well be worth the cost if you are lacking in patience and mechanical aptitude. All of these guns are different, even within the same batches, and you have to look at it as a project.

If you're seeing A LOT of home built or stock saigas not working, a good portion of them are probably because the guns themselves are messed up and either need to be fixed or replaced.

On your gun #8 cant you open up the reciever? I got lucky that mine is an 06 year production that has 4 gas holes. Sounds like you have found the lifespan of one of these. I probably have bit less than 2K thru mine.

[gunfighteruk]

My Alex Wakal D1 saiga conversion has had 15k put through it since 2008 & all were heavy loads , only problems iv had are with the tromix stock coming loose from the back plate & a broken shephards crook sping - fixed by replacing with a Cobra762 retaining plate- & the midbarrel comp choking up with lead & wads - no other issues & its coming to the Panam , just a shame Alex & Russel are not .

Edited July 5, 2010 by gunfighteruk

[StealthyBlagga]

I bought one a few years ago and did my own pistol grip conversion. As Sinistral said, they do take some tinkering (mine had to be Dremelled around the magazine well for AGP mags to fit properly). It is cheap fun - what is not to like about a box-magazine fed 12ga shotgun. Mine has been reliable with cheap Estate ammo, it is light and nimble, and it is surprisingly soft shooting. I do not shoot it in 3-gun because I am a Tactical division guy.

If I did shoot Open division, I would consider running a Saiga, but I would run it with the traditional rock-n-lock magazine well, and I would use drums. The price of 20 round drums has plummeted in the last year to the point where I would have no problem dropping them and regarding them as a semi-consumable item. There are relatively few stages where 20 rounds is not enough, so the extra reload speed of the aftermarket mag wells is offset by the greater reliability risk they bring. Oh, and spare part availability in general is a big concern with the Saiga - if I was running one, I would buy a complete spare gun as a parts donor.

IMHO, the big weakness of the Saiga is inflexibility. When a stage involves switching between slugs and shot, the Saiga starts to struggle. Yes, you can load the magazine in a predetermined sequence, but this allows no room for error. You can also do a mag change, but of course this costs time. A tube-fed shotgun allows you to stuff in a slug pretty much on demand. The new X-Rail systems seem to be running well (though I would only run one on a gas operated gun), and so I would seriously look at one of those before I dropped a lot of $$$ on a Saiga. Don't get me wrong - the Saiga is the better fighting shotgun, but the X-Rail probably makes more sense for 3-gun games.

Edited July 5, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[SinistralRifleman]

The only thing I can definitively say is that all Saigas are different, and maybe the one I got that had 9,000 rounds through it had metallurgy that wasn't as good as some other peoples guns.

[Chuck Anderson]

IMHO, the big weakness of the Saiga is inflexibility. When a stage involves switching between slugs and shot, the Saiga starts to struggle. Yes, you can load the magazine in a predetermined sequence, but this allows no room for error. You can also do a mag change, but of course this costs time. A tube-fed shotgun allows you to stuff in a slug pretty much on demand. The new X-Rail systems seem to be running well (though I would only run one on a gas operated gun), and so I would seriously look at one of those before I dropped a lot of $$$ on a Saiga. Don't get me wrong - the Saiga is the better fighting shotgun, but the X-Rail probably makes more sense for 3-gun games.

I got around this at the Ironman by just loading extra ammo. If I came up on a slug target with shot in, I'd just burn it out. If I had a shot target with slugs in, I'd do the same, just not in the direction of the shot only target. The ability to throw another stick in and have another 12, 15 or 20 rounds rather than having to load a couple at a time was awesome. Reload time was about 2 seconds (unpracticed). I'm sure I could knock that down a bit. Not a lot different than slipping a slug back in the mix. I'm actually looking to switch to open just so I can use the Saiga. I was a little worried but never had an issue keeping Slug/Bird separate. I would imagine an MD could come up with a stage specifically to screw the gun over. But I doubt I'd wanna go back to that match anyway.

BTW, the biggest jams I saw at the Ironman were from folks using drum mags. They did not work well at all, and when they failed the wheels really came off.

[SinistralRifleman]

Ironman is different in that the minimum shots you need of any one type when switching is 4 rounds usually. It is always worth it to just reload with an entire mag of bird, buck, or slug there...you might miss from fatigue or difficulty of the shot, you may need to hammer a double spinner around. The fatigue factor also slows down most people loading tube feds; and the gross motor function of loading a mag becomes an advantage vs individual shells.

In normal 3 gun stages there are normally a few slugs at the beginning or end. The hassle comes into play when it is only 1 or 2.

Do I load my mag in sequence and count on making the shots?

Do I do a mag change to make sure I have enough rounds either way?

The first option works well as long as you make your hits.

The second option costs you less if you need to take extra shots.

Switching several times in the middle of the stage is another level of headache and I personally just change mags back and forth. I'm not going to count on remembering where that slug was in the mag and not tagging a popper accidentally.

The worst stage I've ever shot in terms of using a Saiga was a blind shotgun stage at the 2008 Rocky Mountain 3 Gun...there were several arrays of bird shot targets with slug hits in between. I had to change mags 6 times, and there was no way preplan for this stage as you had no idea what you were going into. I would have been happier just drawing my pistol to engage the slug targets.

The drums require screwing around with the spring to time it for the bolt speed with the ammo you are using. When I used a drum previously I ONLY used it for bird shot. Mixxing loads in it always caused it to malfunction. I'd be willing to bet many people didn't time their springs, or were using mixed loads. Also the drum requires that you have good recoil springs capable of stripping that shell out of the drum. My biggest complaint with the drums is I paid $260 for mine and they are now $100.

Edited July 5, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[THM7]

There is a lot of good advise in this thread. I got into shooting the S12 maybe 3 years ago (Open), at the time guy's were doing there own thing with conversions...basically a 6 pack of beer and one afternoon. If I was just starting out and really serious about shooting 3gun I would spend the $$$ and get a gun from RR or Firebird and be done with it. Good ammo and keeping the gas system clean seems to be the key with these things. Depending on how the stage is set up a "mag well" really helps out with a mixed shot/slug. Also Surefire mags and the RR plastic U clips (For your belt) are the way to go for reloads.

[sslav]

Being originally from the former Soviet Union and fluent in Russian, I frequent the main Russian gun forum - talks.guns.ru . Perhaps Saigas exported to us here go through some sort of a selection process for quality, because the ones they discuss there are expected consistently not to work out of the box and need "tuning".

[Chuck Anderson]

I've been playing off and on with Saiga's for close to 10 years now. Back before you could get anything other than 5 round mags and when the guns were only 329.00. The guns I've had have all shot, out of the box, no problem. It was really depressing to have a 300 dollar shotgun that ran better than my 1K plus tuned competition guns. The only ones that I saw that didn't work were a couple our tac team had that were screwed up by the factory. (ordered with 14" barrels plus standoff, came with 14" barrels including the standoff. Had about an inch in front of the gas port). Guess I've been lucky. Very few guns we buy for three gun work right off the shelf. I've had horrible luck with Benelli's and my Remington's and Brownings all see the smith before being match ready. Why would I expect a gun at half the cost to work better?

[sslav]

Very few guns we buy for three gun work right off the shelf.

When you say "work right" do you mean "functions consistently" or "set up the way I like it"? If it is the first, then every gun I have bought so far - for 3-gun or otherwise has "worked right" out of the box.

[Chuck Anderson]

None of the Remington's I've had worked without having the gas ports opened up. The Browning didn't either. The Benelli's have always been a bit finicky for me until I have the bolts trimmed. So I mean, not a single one would make it through a case of shotgun shells without malfunctioning at some point.

[SN13]

OK.

Some work out of the box with Federal Value Pack 1 1/8oz 3dram target loads. Some do not.

You can do all the work on a Saiga yourself if you are patient and take the time to figure out how each part works.

I did all the work on my S-12 and have 10k rounds through it. It still works fine as long as i don't feed it "reduced recoil" crap.

If you want one done perfectly by a pro, you have to spend the money. It's not in the parts but in the time to make the bolt, springs, gas system, etc. work flawlessly. I know I've spent hours of my own time tuning my system. It runs.

The Saiga has more potential than any other open shotgun. You can DIY and spend the time to learn the gun and tweak it yourself, or you can send it off and have a pro build it for you and spend the $$$$.

Is your free-time worth more or your money. It's your choice. Don't bother DIY if you aren't a puzzle-solver or tinkerer.

~SN

[GentlemanJim]

For the folks that want to build their own

I am happy to share info on how to do it.

Jim