Issues with the new CM 09-XX Classifier WSB’s

[CHA-LEE]

I have been looking at the new CM 09-XX classifiers and have identified some issues with the written stage briefings. If these classifiers are intended to be replicated and shot with any amount of consistency the issues I brought up for each one needs to be fixed. I am not trying to put anyone down by making these comments about the classifiers. I just want to make sure that these classifiers are well defined so we all have a fair playing field when setting them up and shooting them. I am not sure who this information needs to go to so I figured I would post it here.

CM 99-01 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 6.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-02 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections it lists “Shooting area”, then in the drawing it shows this as Box A. The text within the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections should be changed to list Box A as the shooting area.

CM 09-03 = Since this is a Virginia count stage with multiple strings of fire, what is the point of stipulating that “extra ammo” is on the table? Doing this serves no shooting challenge purpose and will only slow down the time it takes a shooter to complete this stage. If both strings are to be the same why is the wording of each string different? The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

CM 09-04 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

CM 09-05 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-06 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-08 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing. Why not put the required measurements on the drawing for T1 and T6 as well as the total width of the shooting area?

CM 09-09 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage? On string 1 the text “onlytwo” needs to be changed to “only two”. In the “RO Note” Section the time should not be set to 6.31 seconds. The Fixed Par Time is defined as “Five Seconds” in the Stage procedure second. This means that the timer should be set to a 5 second Par time. It makes sense to define what an over time shot would be, which would be 5.31 seconds. But that does not mean that the actual beep to beep par time should be set to 5.31 seconds on the timer.

CM 09-10 = The exact location of the X’s on the back of the shooting area are not defined. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-11 = The stage procedure states that each target should be engaged with only one shot, but the scoring section shows “Best 2/paper”. This should be changed to “Best 1/paper”. In the setup notes there is no definition of the height the X marks need to be at, only the left right orientation is delineated. All of the no shoot targets positions over the shoot targets should be fully detailed. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-12 = There are no marks depicted on the barricade on the drawing. In the setup notes it states “T1 and T3 are 15 feet from center line”. The drawing shows T3 as being in the center and T4 being 15 feet out. T2 and T3 also need their location defined. The no shoot also needs to be defined on how its placed on the shoot targets. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-13 = There is no definition of how the no shoots are placed on the shoot targets. There is also no definition of the table dimension or where its located with regards to the shooting area. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-14 = In the “Stage Procedure” section it should state “On signal, turn, then draw….”. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

[boz1911]

Not sure who proofed these but I agree, lots of mistakes that should have been caught prior to publishing.

[Flexmoney]

In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I have always felt that stating "8.1.1 & 8.1.2" was silly and redundant. (those are "gun ready conditions", btw...not start positions)

[pvhendrix]

I have been looking at the new CM 09-XX classifiers and have identified some issues with the written stage briefings. If these classifiers are intended to be replicated and shot with any amount of consistency the issues I brought up for each one needs to be fixed. I am not trying to put anyone down by making these comments about the classifiers. I just want to make sure that these classifiers are well defined so we all have a fair playing field when setting them up and shooting them. I am not sure who this information needs to go to so I figured I would post it here.

CM 99-01 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 6.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-02 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections it lists “Shooting area”, then in the drawing it shows this as Box A. The text within the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections should be changed to list Box A as the shooting area.

CM 09-03 = Since this is a Virginia count stage with multiple strings of fire, what is the point of stipulating that “extra ammo” is on the table? Doing this serves no shooting challenge purpose and will only slow down the time it takes a shooter to complete this stage. If both strings are to be the same why is the wording of each string different? The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

CM 09-04 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

CM 09-05 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-06 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

CM 09-08 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing. Why not put the required measurements on the drawing for T1 and T6 as well as the total width of the shooting area?

CM 09-09 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage? On string 1 the text “onlytwo” needs to be changed to “only two”. In the “RO Note” Section the time should not be set to 6.31 seconds. The Fixed Par Time is defined as “Five Seconds” in the Stage procedure second. This means that the timer should be set to a 5 second Par time. It makes sense to define what an over time shot would be, which would be 5.31 seconds. But that does not mean that the actual beep to beep par time should be set to 5.31 seconds on the timer.

CM 09-10 = The exact location of the X’s on the back of the shooting area are not defined. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-11 = The stage procedure states that each target should be engaged with only one shot, but the scoring section shows “Best 2/paper”. This should be changed to “Best 1/paper”. In the setup notes there is no definition of the height the X marks need to be at, only the left right orientation is delineated. All of the no shoot targets positions over the shoot targets should be fully detailed. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-12 = There are no marks depicted on the barricade on the drawing. In the setup notes it states “T1 and T3 are 15 feet from center line”. The drawing shows T3 as being in the center and T4 being 15 feet out. T2 and T3 also need their location defined. The no shoot also needs to be defined on how its placed on the shoot targets. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-13 = There is no definition of how the no shoots are placed on the shoot targets. There is also no definition of the table dimension or where its located with regards to the shooting area. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

CM 09-14 = In the “Stage Procedure” section it should state “On signal, turn, then draw….”. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

Have you sent these suggestions to USPSA or just posted them here? I suggest you submit them to USPSA if you want them corrected. First I've seen them will have to look at them myself.

Thanks!

[CHA-LEE]

I just sent an e-mail with this information to Michael Voigt and John Amidon at USPSA. Hopefully these guys can look into it and get them fixed.

With the current state of the WSB's I would be leery of using these classifiers at the local matches I help put on.

[John Heiter]

I was really excited to see 14 new classifiers and was wanting to use one in our match this weekend but I don't think I will now. I'm a little disappointed.

• As others have said, the stage descriptions probably could stand a little work.
  
• We now have a couple more classifiers that require props most clubs won't have and will have to build specifically for these classifiers if they want to shoot them.
  
• And my biggest issue, we have 14 new stages and still no movement required for any of them. All the talk about paper GM's and classifier's not really testing the skills the major matches do, I'd really like to see a trend toward more movement in classifiers.
  

I don't think there's any prohibition against movement in a classifier, just so long as the stage is easily duplicated setup wise and follows all other USPSA rules. I'm griping here but I'll try to do something useful about it too and draw one up to submit for consideration.

[spanky]

I just sent an e-mail with this information to Michael Voigt and John Amidon at USPSA. Hopefully these guys can look into it and get them fixed.

With the current state of the WSB's I would be leery of using these classifiers at the local matches I help put on.

Have you received a response?

[LPatterson]

I don't think there's any prohibition against movement in a classifier, just so long as the stage is easily duplicated setup wise and follows all other USPSA rules. I'm griping here but I'll try to do something useful about it too and draw one up to submit for consideration.

Perhaps it is because not everyone can duplicate the surface shooters would have to traverse. What shooting skill set is being tested making me run 10 yards across sand or gravel or grass or the mud of Tulsa? If there were a threat that required I run, it would not be forward. Been there, done that. Combat is best done with bombs and artillery not hand guns.

[CHA-LEE]

My questions with Jon Amidon’s Answers are listed below. To me it seems like his responses are pretty much stating that no changes to the WSB’s will be made. This is surprising to me as its not hard to make changes to the WSB’s to make them 100% solid. But there isn’t much else I can do. I voiced what I thought was wrong with the WSB’s to the USPSA management team and they can do whatever they want with the information.

As someone who helps host and run two fairly large USPSA club matches each month, I would find it hard to use some of these WSB’s in their current state. Like the one that has the shooter put all of their ammo on the table when and then you never reload from the table. That is nothing more than an extra minute of lost time per shooter for the match which ends up being a significant waste of time by the end of the day. We usually get between 60 – 80 shooters at the matches I help out with and every extra minute wasted translates into hours of extra time added to the match. Not to mention having 60+ shooters ask about, whine, or disagree with what is listed in the WSB that does not make sense.

CM 99-01 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 6.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

Stating that the gun is loaded and holstered is sufficient, the ready condition of 8.1.1. and 8.1.2 then must be followed. Working with generic stage presentations like those offered on www.uspsa.org, some designers do not think to remove the stop information, but it does not change the stage or how it was fired.

CM 09-02 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections it lists “Shooting area”, then in the drawing it shows this as Box A. The text within the Start Position and Stage Procedure sections should be changed to list Box A as the shooting area.

See above on gun ready, the shooting area is the box, it is the only area outlined with fault lines, the intent is clear for anyone setting this up.

CM 09-03 = Since this is a Virginia count stage with multiple strings of fire, what is the point of stipulating that “extra ammo” is on the table? Doing this serves no shooting challenge purpose and will only slow down the time it takes a shooter to complete this stage. If both strings are to be the same why is the wording of each string different? The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

No point on the ammo on the table, but again, does not change the COF, from the National Classifier Course book which downloadable from www.uspsa.org: The primary responsibility for honoring this concept of fairness as it applies to the classification system lies with the competitor. The secondary responsibility is that of the match directors and range officers to ensure that the stages are run properly. If the stage description leaves any doubt as to the proper procedure, please call the office for clarification before the match. In circumstances where target heights are not specified, use the standard measurement of 5 feet high at shoulders. For shooting boxes that do not include dimensions, use boxes that are 3 feet by 3 feet. Poppers placed in front of paper targets are 4 feet from the rear target unless otherwise specified. Again, if there is any doubt, call the USPSA office for clarification.

CM 09-04 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing or in the setup notes.

See above

CM 09-05 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

See previous mention on the stop command, also overtime shot is covered in the rule book which all COF state that rules of USPSA will be followed and penalties applied per them, see rule 9.4.6.2 which covers the time of an overtime shot.

CM 09-06 = In the RO Note section they should define what the over time shot condition is, such as stating that a time of 7.31 is considered over time. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage?

See above.

CM 09-08 = The shooting area is not defined on the drawing. Why not put the required measurements on the drawing for T1 and T6 as well as the total width of the shooting area?

See response to 09-03.

CM 09-09 = In the “Start Position” section shouldn’t the gun ready condition rules be defined? Such as stating 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. In the “Scoring” section shouldn’t the “Start – Stop” should only be Audible since this is a fixed time stage? On string 1 the text “onlytwo” needs to be changed to “only two”. In the “RO Note” Section the time should not be set to 6.31 seconds. The Fixed Par Time is defined as “Five Seconds” in the Stage procedure second. This means that the timer should be set to a 5 second Par time. It makes sense to define what an over time shot would be, which would be 5.31 seconds. But that does not mean that the actual beep to beep par time should be set to 5.31 seconds on the timer.

This has all been covered in previous answers.

CM 09-10 = The exact location of the X’s on the back of the shooting area are not defined. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

The diagram pretty much shows the intent of the X’s to be in the center of the shooting area, intent is also covered in the NCCB on page 3.

CM 09-11 = The stage procedure states that each target should be engaged with only one shot, but the scoring section shows “Best 2/paper”. This should be changed to “Best 1/paper”. In the setup notes there is no definition of the height the X marks need to be at, only the left right orientation is delineated. All of the no shoot targets positions over the shoot targets should be fully detailed. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

Seems that the X’s are centered height wise in the 12” high view block.

CM 09-12 = There are no marks depicted on the barricade on the drawing. In the setup notes it states “T1 and T3 are 15 feet from center line”. The drawing shows T3 as being in the center and T4 being 15 feet out. T2 and T3 also need their location defined. The no shoot also needs to be defined on how its placed on the shoot targets. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

It is obvious from the diagram that it should be T1 and T4 set at 15 feet, the no shoot is shown as centered between T2 and T3 with the head at shoulder height of the scoring targets. It also shows the that T2 and T3 have their shoulders touching on the centerline.

CM 09-13 = There is no definition of how the no shoots are placed on the shoot targets. There is also no definition of the table dimension or where its located with regards to the shooting area. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

See above and comment of generic setting for table in 09-03.

CM 09-14 = In the “Stage Procedure” section it should state “On signal, turn, then draw….”. The shooting area is not defined on the drawing.

The problem with spell checker is it cannot pick out the wrong word if spelled correctly. The shooting area is defined in the setup notes.

[LPatterson]

Reading the initial post made it sound like there were major problems with the new classifiers. After reading the second regurgitation with John Amidon's answers included, I don't understand the BFD. The rule book explains gun ready conditions and fixed time/over time so is it necessary to spoon feed the shooters? Or is it to "cross the T's and dot the I's" for match directors. Complaining because two words are run together or that then is missing an 'n' when the statement "turn then draw" should not be necessary. If a shooter wants to draw facing up range as several did at the last Nationals the rule book explains how to handle that. As to the location of a no shoot target over a shoot target, if you try it the answer might explain itself. Rule 3.2.3 allows a Range Master to modify a written stage briefing at any time for reasons of clarity, consistency or safety.

[CHA-LEE]

Since these classifier stages are being used by different clubs all across the nation it would only make sense that they are fully proof read and error on the side of spoon feeding some of the rules or requirements for that specific classifier. Fixed Time stages are very rare in my part of the shooting world as are shooters that know all the ins and outs of the USPSA rule book. Expecting every single shooter to have a certified RO's level of understanding of the rule book is unrealistic and will never happen. In the end its all about making the shooting event enjoyable and as pain free as possible. Adding some spoon fed rule information to a given classifier shouldn't be required but it does grease the wheels for the shooters that may not know how a rarely used timing method like Fixed Time works or what the definition of an overtime shot is.

There really is no excuse to not have the classifier WSB's 100% solid. We can deflect the substandard content by pointing out that you should reference this or that to clarify the shortcomings. Or simply assume that the misspelled words mean something else. But all of that is a work around that isn't needed when the WSB is 100% solid.

I am not trying to be a prick about this. I just find it odd that we as paying USPSA members would find it acceptable to have substandard WSB's on classifiers since these are what are used to measure our performance. Keep in mind that USPSA gets paid to do this stuff right, so why shouldn't they?

[Nik Habicht]

Cha-Lee --

Fixed time stages could also be shot on turning targets -- in which case there'd be no need for an audible start or stop.....

[sperman]

Cha-Lee --

Fixed time stages could also be shot on turning targets -- in which case there'd be no need for an audible start or stop.....

The way I read the rules, the WSB defines the start of the COF. The WSB on all of the 09 fixed time classifiers list the start - stop as audible - audible. I can't find a rule that allows you to substitute a visual start just because it's fixed time.

This recommends disappearing targets be used for fixed time:

9.2.4.2 Fixed Time must use paper targets exclusively and they should, where possible, be disappearing targets.

Some more rules that seem to be relevant.

1.2.2.2 “Classifiers” – Courses of fire published by USPSA, which are available to competitors seeking a National classification. Classifiers must be set-up in accordance with these rules and be conducted strictly in accordance with the notes and diagrams accompanying them. Results must be submitted to the publishing entity in the format required (with the applicable fees, if any), in order to be recognized.

3.2.1 A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information:

— Scoring Method:

— Targets (type & number):

— Minimum number of rounds:

— The handgun ready condition:

— Start position:

— Time starts: audible or visual signal:

— Procedure:

[GrumpyOne]

I don't think there's any prohibition against movement in a classifier, just so long as the stage is easily duplicated setup wise and follows all other USPSA rules. I'm griping here but I'll try to do something useful about it too and draw one up to submit for consideration.

Perhaps it is because not everyone can duplicate the surface shooters would have to traverse. What shooting skill set is being tested making me run 10 yards across sand or gravel or grass or the mud of Tulsa? If there were a threat that required I run, it would not be forward. Been there, done that. Combat is best done with bombs and artillery not hand guns.

Now that is true and funny! And also, shouldn't no shoots disappear as soon as the first shot was fired? In real life they would!

[jkatz44]

I don't think there's any prohibition against movement in a classifier, just so long as the stage is easily duplicated setup wise and follows all other USPSA rules. I'm griping here but I'll try to do something useful about it too and draw one up to submit for consideration.

Perhaps it is because not everyone can duplicate the surface shooters would have to traverse. What shooting skill set is being tested making me run 10 yards across sand or gravel or grass or the mud of Tulsa? If there were a threat that required I run, it would not be forward. Been there, done that. Combat is best done with bombs and artillery not hand guns.

Now that is true and funny! And also, shouldn't no shoots disappear as soon as the first shot was fired? In real life they would!

lol

[GrumpyOne]

I don't think there's any prohibition against movement in a classifier, just so long as the stage is easily duplicated setup wise and follows all other USPSA rules. I'm griping here but I'll try to do something useful about it too and draw one up to submit for consideration.

Perhaps it is because not everyone can duplicate the surface shooters would have to traverse. What shooting skill set is being tested making me run 10 yards across sand or gravel or grass or the mud of Tulsa? If there were a threat that required I run, it would not be forward. Been there, done that. Combat is best done with bombs and artillery not hand guns.

Now that is true and funny! And also, shouldn't no shoots disappear as soon as the first shot was fired? In real life they would!

lol

Or, as the old addage goes, Anyone who runs is a target, anyone who stands still is a well disciplined target.

[open17]

Interesting bunch of classifiers. We shot 09-12 today at a local match. There are a few

issues with the WSB!

START POSITION:" Standing with both feet flat in shooting area," SO--I stand on top of the

start box. NO--can't do that--- But my feet are flat, and I'm not touching the ground

outside the box. I'm in or out----that has been beat to death many a time.

And the really cute one?

"On signal, draw and engage targets with only two rounds

each while remaining in the shooting area."

ONLY TWO ROUNDS? On a COMSTOCK COF? The appropriate rules:

9.2.1 The written stage briefing for each course of fire must specify one of

the following scoring methods:

9.2.2 “Comstock” – Unlimited time stops on the last shot, unlimited number

of shots to be fired, stipulated number of hits per target to count for

score.

[driver8M3]

i shot 09-13 (table stakes) on consecutive weekends at different clubs. the first time, "sitting fully in chair" meant your entire butt had to be in the chair. the second time it meant that your back had to be against the back of the chair.

[JThompson]

i shot 09-13 (table stakes) on consecutive weekends at different clubs. the first time, "sitting fully in chair" meant your entire butt had to be in the chair. the second time it meant that your back had to be against the back of the chair.

Yes, when it comes to a classifier, you should spell out everything to the letter. The little things can be a huge factor.

JT