Unsafe Shooter...Revisited...

[gino_aki]

This topic got closed in the HATE forum for turning into a discussion, and many called for a forum move so the discussion could continue.... First off I'd like express my appreciation for the many thoughtful comments from you guys out there...I was sort of expecting more call-outs for letting my attitude and vigilance slip to the point where an AD and subsequent DQ were more a cause of irritation than...well horror may be too strong a word but I'm sure you guys know what I mean.

Anyway, stayed away from the range for a coupla weeks, finally got my Single Stack rig settled...didn't do a lot of dry-firing, but enough to reacquaint the first pad of my trigger finger with the tip of the slide stop pin, (which I always "get" in practice, so why am I screwing up at matches?) and shot the match this past weekend in SS. I do remember throughout the match being very conscious of where that trigger finger was during gross movements...like position to position, but not so much during transitions. I was also much more aware of where other shooters were placing their trigger fingers...and was glad to see that the newer shooters weren't picking up on my past bad examples.

I did feel more relaxed at this match because I WAS shooting Single Stack and the guys in my club who shoot this division haven't been shooting as long as I have. L-10 is the "hot" division in our club and I'm wondering if the competitive pressure was pushing me to shortcut safety? Not an excuse, but just wondering when splits between targets become fast enough that your finger can't make it out of the trigger guard between targets....

Anyway, hoping you guys will pick up where you left off in the topic that got closed, looking forward to more of the input BEnosverse members are renowned for.

(As I sit here at the computer on BEnos rather than doing the paperwork I'm supposed to be doing, I am trying a new technique on transitions with the SS from one side of the monitor to the other of not putting my finger back on the trigger until I have the sights aligned instead of when I just have the gun indexed with the target....)

[Team Amish 1]

Hi gino,

I read your last post when it was still open.

Glad to see your follow up.

It sounds like you took the AD seriously. Congrats.

I have been dq'ed once before, for dropping my gun during the draw.

My action plan then was similar, get reacquainted and do some deliberate gun handling.

Thanks for the heads up on the issue!

Roman

[calishootr]

hi gino,

glad to seeyour taking the DQ for what it is, a learning tool, or wake up call, in recent yrs ive noticed that more an more people have been coming out to try our sport, and i dont know if its a 'macho bravado' thing because you getto wear a gun around all day, or they see it on youtube or somthing likethat andthink they can come into this sport lightly, WRONG, first, we are dealing with LIVE firearms, shooting LIVE ammo, somthing goes wrong, badthings happen, thats why we have safety regulations in place to mitigate that from happeneing, i teach a intro to USPSA shooting class, i had 1 student, that afterthe class, i asked if was goingto come shoot with us, he said 'no, you guys have too many rules'

if it happens again to you(hope it doesnt) seek some help from some ofthe more experienced shooters in your area to get a handle on what it is you are doing, some habits are hard to break, and you may not even realize thatyou aredoing anything unsafe(for instance ive had a number of students who unknowingly swept themselves while holstering, they didnt know it, till i told em and corrected it)

[Chris iliff]

Gino, sometimes we get complacent and need to step back and re-evaluate what we are doing. Sounds like you are doing exactly that. I appluad your honesty, integrity, and dedication. It is your type of dedication and care that drive our sport and make it, IMO, the best sport available. From Indiana and the cornbelt, GOOD JOB!!!!!

[Field]

ha oh man it only took me 1 stinky AD and now my finger goes waaay out of that trigger gaurd when im moving and stuff. worked like magik.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Field

[tgford58]

Well, the dreaded DQ. I think we all feel we have a good handle on safe gun handling practices but it often takes a harsh wake up call to find our deficiencies. Mine happened last weekend. though I didn't get a DQ, while shooting a local club match I ran a fairly fast stage and started having malfunctions. While trying to clear the jam the RO kept yelling something to me. Since my batteries were dead on my muffs I didn't understand what was being said but after I had cleared he stopped me and asked why I didn't respond to his warnings. Apparently during my remediation attempts I kept my finger in the trigger guard - a sure recipe for disaster. I video every stage and yup, I was flirting with an AD. On a major I would have been gone - should have been gone. Now as part of my dry fire and range drills I am incorporating shoot one, cycle one drills. All under the watchful eye of my RO wife and my IKam glasses. Those two don't let me get away with anything. So, thank you to the RO last weekend for finding my weakness, being gentle but giving me the right skills to work on.

[Flexmoney]

Major or local match, that is a clear DQ. Not trying to be harsh, but your RO should have made the correct call. I am sure you were happy for the break, but...

- You not being DQ is not the safe thing for everybody else at the match.

- Not being DQ'ed at a "local" sets the precedent that some matches are run differently than others. They are not.

[JThompson]

Major or local match, that is a clear DQ. Not trying to be harsh, but your RO should have made the correct call. I am sure you were happy for the break, but...

- You not being DQ is not the safe thing for everybody else at the match.

- Not being DQ'ed at a "local" sets the precedent that some matches are run differently than others. They are not.

I think they "should not" would be more appropriate.

I respect you for coming on here and discussing the issue, but if you had been shooting at my club, I would have banned you before you could finish filling one hands work of ADs. Somehow in the quest for speed or whatever you have compromised safety. Figure a way to deal with that. The advice here is sound... I will give you one more. If I were you I would walk when shooting for a bit. Do not try and stick reloads and haul ass. You need to relearn and I don't think you can do that going full tilt boogie. If not walking, slow all your actions dramatically until you "know" where that finger is at all times.

You can only hold one thought in your conscious mind, so for now, your thought is FINGER.

Mahalo

JT

Edited June 29, 2010 by JThompson

[tgford58]

Can't say I disagree with either of you. I'd love to put the imam on you to see just how it's done. It wasn't a movement issue but a jamclear issue one that I know now to work on and correct. I'm sorry that you feel I should be banned pretty harsh but if that works in your club then God bless. Like I was taught when I took my RO class a warning has shooters learn without runnng people away and a loose finger is an AD waiting to happen....if it's not corrected. You do hat you feel is correct but I'm still thankful for a RO more concerned with teaching than being able to tally the DQs he's handed out. This is a man well respected and great for the sport.

[JThompson]

Can't say I disagree with either of you. I'd love to put the imam on you to see just how it's done. It wasn't a movement issue but a jamclear issue one that I know now to work on and correct. I'm sorry that you feel I should be banned pretty harsh but if that works in your club then God bless. Like I was taught when I took my RO class a warning has shooters learn without runnng people away and a loose finger is an AD waiting to happen....if it's not corrected. You do hat you feel is correct but I'm still thankful for a RO more concerned with teaching than being able to tally the DQs he's handed out. This is a man well respected and great for the sport.

You did not start this thread and I wasn't speaking to you.

What I said was there is no way I would allow someone to continue with as many DQs as we're talking about here. I would have intervened before that time and made sure whatever was happening was corrected and yes, if the person couldn't get a handle on it, then they would not be allowed to continue shooting. You can not have someone shooting that has AD/DQed more than 10 times. Hell, I would look at them seriously for twice in a year. The risk to others is too great and if that makes me an ass then so be it.

I personally like Gene and we have spoken before. I think he's a great guy, but that gets set to the side for safety sake. I wouldn't care if it was my best friend, my GF or myself. If there is a problem it needs to be fixed and fast. If that problem can not be fixed, or for whatever reason is not fixed then, yes, I would ban the person for the safety of all.

I think Gene has put it out there by telling us about it and I do think he wants to fix the problem, but if he can not get it under control, then perhaps the surf board is a better choice for him. I don't mean to sound cold, but by his own admission, this has happened more than 10 times. That is and insane number in my book. To the point I can't even get my mind around it....

JT

Edited June 30, 2010 by JThompson

[gino_aki]

Not that this should make any difference but the eleven ADs are over a period of 30 years of shooting so it's not like it's at every other match. All but one went into the impact berm, three went through the target I was starting to engage. I do remember every single one, especially the one that landed about a foot from my right foot - that one was mainly a problem with a new holster being set up wrong, the outside "ear" of the Hogue Powerspeed caught the trigger on the draw.

Three of the AD's have been with the same gun, including the last one. The previous two actually happened one right after the other on "unload and show clear" somehow forgot to drop the mag first, RO didn't see it either, BAM! got so rattled forgot to drop it AGAIN, BAM! The first AD went into the last target since at that time I had gotten into the practice of pointing the gun at the last target when dropping the hammer before holstering. The second one went into the berm downrange. Really felt stupid that day, and am always SURE now when clearing.

Three of the other AD's happened at State Championships, the first one in 1991 I believe, on a reload, the second in 1995 with the holster, the third at the last one we hosted in 2009...that one was another incident of hitting the side of a wall while lining up on a target. Even though it did hit the target it was not an aimed deliberate shot so I called it an AD. RO didn't DQ me for that one even though I stopped of my own accord, said he couldn't call it as such. Upon scoring we did find that it hit the target (a D) so he felt he was justified in not making the call. I still call it an AD.

Two of the other AD's happened in the late eighties during the "trying to run before you learn to walk" phase...just trying to go too fast on reloads. I'm very conscious now during reloads, and more so since that last one in 2007 when I decided to pull out a gun I hadn't shot in awhile and then changed the mag release button, ammo (135gr bullet .40 S&W Major), and foolishly thought I could go out and run just as fast with it without re-familiarizing myself with the lightest trigger I have on any of my guns. I believe the increased recoil from the hotter loads made the gun feel like it was shifting in my grip, the new button felt odd under firing conditions versus dry handling...I remember that my finger was extended when the gun went off on the reload so I'm thinking it slipped down and was pressing on the side of the trigger when I shifted my grip to reach the mag release (old style Para framed Open gun). Still added up to BOOM when there wasn't supposed to be one, although this one also went through the target because it was so close. Did get DQed and rightfully so for that one. I really try now not to be changing all kinds of things and then shooting a match without really getting the feel of the gun again.

The other two AD's didn't happen at matches, one was during a round of trap at station two just before calling for the bird, just flat out pulled the trigger prematurely. The other was while trying to unload a new (but circa 1980) Remington 700 where the safety locked the bolt as well as the trigger. That one is still the one that puzzles me. I'm sure I wasn't touching the trigger, but then again I must have been because when I released the safety it went off...luckily we were back at the truck and aiming into a dirt berm to unload after a day of hunting on Mauna Kea. I sold that rifle and won't own any rifle or shotgun now that I can't unload while it's on safe. I like my 1911 pattern pistols so I have to accept the off-safe unloading there, though I don't think it would be too hard to modify the thumb safety to permit on-safe unloading.

I have learned from every single one of my AD's although it's not a method of learning I'd recommend to anyone. And if I were in JT's place I'd probably ban me too. So I'm thinking if I ever get up near his club's way I probably won't bring my rig but hopefully they'll let me watch and help out with a match.

Edited June 30, 2010 by gino_aki

[old506]

I have a piece of a copper jacket in my right thigh (missing my femoral artery by an inch) from an "AD" (if you want to call it that). BTW, I wasn't the one who was behind the gun. One more thing, it was hunting related not competitive shooting related, just to make it clear.

This is serious business, I nearly lost my life that day. There are few things more frightening than dropping your britches and knowing that you were hit point blank.

I don't shoot with unsafe shooters. I have way to much to lose and I support hard stances when it comes to gun handling safety.

It hurts and it hurts more telling your wife that your in the hospital because you were shot. It also hurts when you are the one behind the gun that made the stupid mistake. If you are inclined to make these mistakes, you may want to think long and hard about finding another hobby.

[JThompson]

Well that is a bit of a different story my friend... It's still on the high side, but not as bad as what I was thinking. I see you have been in the USPSA for 18yrs and that is a long stretch for sure. Hell, I have only been shooting this sport for three and I have let one go early myself. It hit the target or close to it, but it was an Ad none the less. That was one where you are on the push out and prep the trigger a bit to much. Just because something is not DQable does not mean it's not an AD.

For some reason you don't have a disconnect mechanism. What I use is when my weak hand breaks away from the gun, my trigger finger goes to the slide and frame where I can feel the blend line between the two. Just as during the draw, both hands move at the same time... when I dismount my weak hand my right finger moves. The issue I have on occasion is when I have to take a couple steps with the gun mounted. It was pointed out to me by a friend that I didn't remove my trigger finger from the guard. That could have sent me home, there was no AD there, but it's still DQable. I found that the reason for it was that my disconnect mechanism did not include when my feet moved with my weak hand still mounted.

I have also done the AD when you forget the mag, that was when I was practicing on the range and it went into the backstop. I was analyzing a series of shots and did not immediately clear the gun. I racked the slide and bang! I looked at my buddy and we both raised our eyebrows. I packed it in for the day. Fingers bother me a lot, but Ads are what really get my blood going.

There are two good disconnects you can tie your mind around. The first is any time you dismount your weak hand and the other is any time you lift a foot where you are not engaging targets. If you tie those movements to moving your trigger finger you should be good to go.

I would not ban you for 10 in 18 years. I have yet to have a remedial or movement AD and I hope it never comes, but I know it CAN happen and threads like this will keep it in the front of my mind to not be complacent about it. At times you are jamming and have no conscious idea where you finger is. I have often asked friends to watch me and report anything they might see.

You have no ADs in the next two years and I'll pay your way into Area 5 and let you shoot it.

Mahalo bruh

JT

Edited June 30, 2010 by JThompson

[Sarge]

Well, the dreaded DQ. I think we all feel we have a good handle on safe gun handling practices but it often takes a harsh wake up call to find our deficiencies. Mine happened last weekend. though I didn't get a DQ, while shooting a local club match I ran a fairly fast stage and started having malfunctions. While trying to clear the jam the RO kept yelling something to me. Since my batteries were dead on my muffs I didn't understand what was being said but after I had cleared he stopped me and asked why I didn't respond to his warnings. Apparently during my remediation attempts I kept my finger in the trigger guard - a sure recipe for disaster. I video every stage and yup, I was flirting with an AD. On a major I would have been gone - should have been gone. Now as part of my dry fire and range drills I am incorporating shoot one, cycle one drills. All under the watchful eye of my RO wife and my IKam glasses. Those two don't let me get away with anything. So, thank you to the RO last weekend for finding my weakness, being gentle but giving me the right skills to work on.

We had a new shooter get DQ'd last match for the same thing. He shot three targets in his first stage and reloaded without getting his finger clear. He was stopped cold. I would agree with Flex in that I think you might have appreciated it but it was not the right thing to do.

[ben b.]

I saw this AD in May when I was shooting with the Maui guys, it was on a classifier.

Gino, I did not read your description of what happened. As I recall, it looked to me like you were taking slack/prepping on the trigger during transition and you pushed it too far. I've shot with you 3 times and not seen anything scary in terms of gun-handling (muzzle, stupid/random behavior, etc). An AD is an AD, and born-again safety preachers can never be silenced but still...having an AD while transitioning between targets in an array is an action/mistake about equivalent to a trigger freeze, but with a much louder consequence.

I had an on-target AD at a steel match about 3 months ago, taking slack between plates, and took in too much. I'd be surprised if many pistol racers have not had a shot break early in exactly the same way, either in practice or in a match.

It seems like something to learn from.

Edited June 30, 2010 by ben b.

[gino_aki]

Ben...thanks for the vote of confidence but it was an AD due to hitting the side of the barricade while transitioning from side to the middle port and because my finger was in the trigger guard when I naturally tightened my grip to avoid having the gun get launched...boom. This would be exactly the thing that "finger out of the trigger guard" is supposed to prevent. Shame on me.

JT...I get what you're saying about a disconnect and on gross movements I know my fingertip is on the end of the slide stop pin...but I'm not so sure on target transitions where my support hand doesn't leave the gun. This is why I want to work on getting my finger off the trigger until my sights are aligned on target rather than just the gun indexed...I figure there is no way for me to continue having AD's if I do that.

[ben b.]

Oh... well, then....errr...I guess I need to find someplace safer to shoot on vacation...

When I take a brand new shooter out and go over the info, I introduce their index finger as "stupid trigger finger" and the vigilence needed to keed STF from doing what he likes to do, which is to always curl inside a trigger guard. Maybe STF needs a trip behind the woodshed?

OK, I'll STFU now.

Cheers man, see you next May

Ben

[JThompson]

Ben...thanks for the vote of confidence but it was an AD due to hitting the side of the barricade while transitioning from side to the middle port and because my finger was in the trigger guard when I naturally tightened my grip to avoid having the gun get launched...boom. This would be exactly the thing that "finger out of the trigger guard" is supposed to prevent. Shame on me.

JT...I get what you're saying about a disconnect and on gross movements I know my fingertip is on the end of the slide stop pin...but I'm not so sure on target transitions where my support hand doesn't leave the gun. This is why I want to work on getting my finger off the trigger until my sights are aligned on target rather than just the gun indexed...I figure there is no way for me to continue having AD's if I do that.

Do what you think you have to to get it right... I do not remove my finger on transition targets where I am not moving. With a light trigger, I feel you are more likely to let one go getting your finger back in the trigger guard, on a quick transition, than you are leaving your finger in and pressing it to the front of the guard. As long as you aren't taking more than a step, you are good.

I understand, at this point, you are exaggerating all your safety moves and understand why.

JT

[johnbh]

Hi Ben

I'm a new shooter and I want to thank you, for laying it all out there. I hav'nt shot a match yet, but I do have a fear of making sure I'm being safe. I'ts scary that this sport can have major consequences injurys or death. When I'm at home I really work at handling my gun,and making sure I keep my finger off the trigger everytime I pick it up,and have my index finger where it should be, I check the chamber to make sure it's safe. I have caught myself with my finger on the trigger,and I remove it imediately.Being in a match I can see where that could happen,there so many distactions but being entirely focused is my goal , every step I take. Take guts to share what you have been through, and I can understand the DQ's. Your making an honest effort to change that, and having to listen to the people that have posted about DQ's, hopefully your done with that, and your back on track.Takes guts to post what you did, your post has helped me alot.

Thanks

John

[JimmyZip]

When I dryfire, I ULSC when I make up mini stages in my garage. It has gotten me into the habit of dropping the mag, and showing the chamber to the RO, then dropping the hammer and holstering. I even do so in a deliberate manner as I am concerned that I have seen MANY people ROing that do not actually look. I show them that chamber and stay there until they realize that I am making them do their job. I do not rush through ULSC because that is the most important part of a stage AFAIC.

I actually got into the habit of practicing this after thinking of my earlier experience shooting as a kid. Many times my dad would walk the course of fire with me as I shot coaching me and watching for safety issues. His constant soft, calm voice would be there and still is to this day in many ways. When you are dryfiring and you move from one position to another, FINGER ON THE FRAME. When you are reloading FINGER ON THE FRAME. Even on your draw, you should not be engaging that trigger or prepping it until the last moment necessary.

If you make this part of your dryfire Gino, and really keep at it, you will come out a safer shooter. I have no doubt that this is within your power if you so choose to make it your first priority.

JZ

[twodownzero]

I just don't understand how people get into this habit. It seems so natural for me to remove my trigger finger from the trigger when I'm not firing.

Watch this video at about the 7 second mark and see where my finger goes:

http://www.youtube.com/user/tim84k10#p/u/10/1CQS7uogpFc

I might be slow, I might only be a C class shooter, I might make mistakes and walk past targets, miss targets, make procedural errors or have brain farts with memory stages...but perhaps the reason I'm not ready to crank the speed is that safety is always on my mind.

Whatever your problem is, if it's not entirely intuitive to keep your finger off the trigger unless you're firing after 30 years of shooting and 18 years in the USPSA, I think you need to look seriously at discontinuing shooting unless you can make drastic changes to your habits right now. Even one AD is too many when one realizes that the next one could go through someone's head.

gun handling first--then speed.

[stinsonbeach]

I just read thru this thread & I must say, it made me feel a bit better - everyone "screws the pooch" at times. I thought it was only me. I've never had an AD but I was suppose to shoot a big match a few months back & found that people who had shot w/ me at local matches changed their squad - even the day they were to shoot - to get away from me as they thought I was "nuts". Until that time I didn't really give much thought to being DQ'd. Since then I've started to pay attention. Funny how a little of that goes a long way. It's also improved my shooting - as I never took that very seriously either.

Don't really know what I'm trying to say here, but maybe it's "you're not the only one who screws up" & all it takes is a little something to bring it all around.

-jb

[C.W.]

Not that this should make any difference but the eleven ADs are over a period of 30 years of shooting so it's not like it's at every other match. All but one went into the impact berm, three went through the target I was starting to engage. I do remember every single one, especially the one that landed about a foot from my right foot - that one was mainly a problem with a new holster being set up wrong, the outside "ear" of the Hogue Powerspeed caught the trigger on the draw.

Three of the AD's have been with the same gun, including the last one. The previous two actually happened one right after the other on "unload and show clear" somehow forgot to drop the mag first, RO didn't see it either, BAM! got so rattled forgot to drop it AGAIN, BAM! The first AD went into the last target since at that time I had gotten into the practice of pointing the gun at the last target when dropping the hammer before holstering. The second one went into the berm downrange. Really felt stupid that day, and am always SURE now when clearing.

Three of the other AD's happened at State Championships, the first one in 1991 I believe, on a reload, the second in 1995 with the holster, the third at the last one we hosted in 2009...that one was another incident of hitting the side of a wall while lining up on a target. Even though it did hit the target it was not an aimed deliberate shot so I called it an AD. RO didn't DQ me for that one even though I stopped of my own accord, said he couldn't call it as such. Upon scoring we did find that it hit the target (a D) so he felt he was justified in not making the call. I still call it an AD.

Two of the other AD's happened in the late eighties during the "trying to run before you learn to walk" phase...just trying to go too fast on reloads. I'm very conscious now during reloads, and more so since that last one in 2007 when I decided to pull out a gun I hadn't shot in awhile and then changed the mag release button, ammo (135gr bullet .40 S&W Major), and foolishly thought I could go out and run just as fast with it without re-familiarizing myself with the lightest trigger I have on any of my guns. I believe the increased recoil from the hotter loads made the gun feel like it was shifting in my grip, the new button felt odd under firing conditions versus dry handling...I remember that my finger was extended when the gun went off on the reload so I'm thinking it slipped down and was pressing on the side of the trigger when I shifted my grip to reach the mag release (old style Para framed Open gun). Still added up to BOOM when there wasn't supposed to be one, although this one also went through the target because it was so close. Did get DQed and rightfully so for that one. I really try now not to be changing all kinds of things and then shooting a match without really getting the feel of the gun again.

The other two AD's didn't happen at matches, one was during a round of trap at station two just before calling for the bird, just flat out pulled the trigger prematurely. The other was while trying to unload a new (but circa 1980) Remington 700 where the safety locked the bolt as well as the trigger. That one is still the one that puzzles me. I'm sure I wasn't touching the trigger, but then again I must have been because when I released the safety it went off...luckily we were back at the truck and aiming into a dirt berm to unload after a day of hunting on Mauna Kea. I sold that rifle and won't own any rifle or shotgun now that I can't unload while it's on safe. I like my 1911 pattern pistols so I have to accept the off-safe unloading there, though I don't think it would be too hard to modify the thumb safety to permit on-safe unloading.

I have learned from every single one of my AD's although it's not a method of learning I'd recommend to anyone. And if I were in JT's place I'd probably ban me too. So I'm thinking if I ever get up near his club's way I probably won't bring my rig but hopefully they'll let me watch and help out with a match.

I'm new here and I'm sorry if this being my first post violates any rules, but I thought you should know that the rem 700 AD ( I believe in this case it was an AD , not a ND) was probably not your fault. I witnessed the same thing happen when a lady I was hunting with was disengaging the safety on her rem 700. Luckily, she had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (into the ground) but it sure got everyone's attention. I was looking right at her when it happened and I didn't see her finger on the trigger but I always figured it must have been.

20 years or so later I stumble onto stories like this

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

Apparently this is a well known problem with these rifles.

[gino_aki]

Not that this should make any difference but the eleven ADs are over a period of 30 years of shooting so it's not like it's at every other match. All but one went into the impact berm, three went through the target I was starting to engage. I do remember every single one, especially the one that landed about a foot from my right foot - that one was mainly a problem with a new holster being set up wrong, the outside "ear" of the Hogue Powerspeed caught the trigger on the draw.

Three of the AD's have been with the same gun, including the last one. The previous two actually happened one right after the other on "unload and show clear" somehow forgot to drop the mag first, RO didn't see it either, BAM! got so rattled forgot to drop it AGAIN, BAM! The first AD went into the last target since at that time I had gotten into the practice of pointing the gun at the last target when dropping the hammer before holstering. The second one went into the berm downrange. Really felt stupid that day, and am always SURE now when clearing.

Three of the other AD's happened at State Championships, the first one in 1991 I believe, on a reload, the second in 1995 with the holster, the third at the last one we hosted in 2009...that one was another incident of hitting the side of a wall while lining up on a target. Even though it did hit the target it was not an aimed deliberate shot so I called it an AD. RO didn't DQ me for that one even though I stopped of my own accord, said he couldn't call it as such. Upon scoring we did find that it hit the target (a D) so he felt he was justified in not making the call. I still call it an AD.

Two of the other AD's happened in the late eighties during the "trying to run before you learn to walk" phase...just trying to go too fast on reloads. I'm very conscious now during reloads, and more so since that last one in 2007 when I decided to pull out a gun I hadn't shot in awhile and then changed the mag release button, ammo (135gr bullet .40 S&W Major), and foolishly thought I could go out and run just as fast with it without re-familiarizing myself with the lightest trigger I have on any of my guns. I believe the increased recoil from the hotter loads made the gun feel like it was shifting in my grip, the new button felt odd under firing conditions versus dry handling...I remember that my finger was extended when the gun went off on the reload so I'm thinking it slipped down and was pressing on the side of the trigger when I shifted my grip to reach the mag release (old style Para framed Open gun). Still added up to BOOM when there wasn't supposed to be one, although this one also went through the target because it was so close. Did get DQed and rightfully so for that one. I really try now not to be changing all kinds of things and then shooting a match without really getting the feel of the gun again.

The other two AD's didn't happen at matches, one was during a round of trap at station two just before calling for the bird, just flat out pulled the trigger prematurely. The other was while trying to unload a new (but circa 1980) Remington 700 where the safety locked the bolt as well as the trigger. That one is still the one that puzzles me. I'm sure I wasn't touching the trigger, but then again I must have been because when I released the safety it went off...luckily we were back at the truck and aiming into a dirt berm to unload after a day of hunting on Mauna Kea. I sold that rifle and won't own any rifle or shotgun now that I can't unload while it's on safe. I like my 1911 pattern pistols so I have to accept the off-safe unloading there, though I don't think it would be too hard to modify the thumb safety to permit on-safe unloading.

I have learned from every single one of my AD's although it's not a method of learning I'd recommend to anyone. And if I were in JT's place I'd probably ban me too. So I'm thinking if I ever get up near his club's way I probably won't bring my rig but hopefully they'll let me watch and help out with a match.

I'm new here and I'm sorry if this being my first post violates any rules, but I thought you should know that the rem 700 AD ( I believe in this case it was an AD , not a ND) was probably not your fault. I witnessed the same thing happen when a lady I was hunting with was disengaging the safety on her rem 700. Luckily, she had the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (into the ground) but it sure got everyone's attention. I was looking right at her when it happened and I didn't see her finger on the trigger but I always figured it must have been.

20 years or so later I stumble onto stories like this

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

Apparently this is a well known problem with these rifles.

I don't know if that makes me feel better or not. It was a really nice rifle except for firing when you wanted to unload it.