What is wrong with the M&P Pro 9 for USPSA production divison?

[Philo_Beddoe]

I have surfed the forum and read that alot of you bought the M&P 9L instead of the M&P pro 9 for use in USPSA production division. The reason given for this is that those who buy the M&P 9L wanted to switch the sights and do a trigger job, negating the benefit of the M&P pro 9 fiber optic sights and tuned trigger.

My question is why? I have handled the M&P pro and found the sights and trigger to be quite good.

What are you replacing the stock Pro sights with and what are you doing to the trigger to justify skipping the pro 9 and spending the extra money to have a smith do some custom work on the 9L?

Is this custom work (sights and trigger) really that much an improvement over the Pros factory sights and trigger?

I am considering buying a Pro 9 for production division, but if the custom sights and triggers from smiths are that much better I might just buy the 9L and send it off for the custom work.

Thanks

[High Lord Gomer]

I have not shot an M&P worked on by a real gunsmith, so I can't comment on that.

I did buy 2 9 Pros and the trigger on one was TERRIBLE (I think the stock firing pin block might have had a burr on it because when it got to the point of pushing that up, the trigger got really hard and it moved the slide rearward a fair bit). The other was ok, but not as smooth or as light as my old M&P9 with 37K rounds through it.

I put the Apex seer and firing pin block in both of the Pros and they are incredible! I let someone at Area 6 try mine against theirs that had work done to it and they liked mine with the simple drop-in Apex parts better.

I got the Pros because they were in stock. I like the sights (never looked at the 9L sights).

[smokshwn]

I am not an M&P shooter but the answer to your question is probably along the lines of sights and trigger being relatively subjective to most folks. Some may prefer all black sights, some FO, some wider, some narrower, some adjustable (dawson), some fixed etc. The same goes for triggers, some may like different aspects of a trigger pull, it is not always about the poundage. Some may also feel that with aftermarket parts or work that the trigger is even better than the Pro models. And yet even another reason may be that some may forgo the initial cost and upgrade the gun in stages rather than buying the full boat all at once.

[mjoy64]

Personally I prefer a plain black front sight over a FO. The FO in the Pro is huge and many prefer smaller. I also prefer adjustable rear sights over fixed. I put Dawson sights in the front and the rear.

I've had 3 guns worked over by Dan Burwell and 1 by Mike Cywrus. Once you've felt a trigger done by a competent smith, you'll know the difference. It's huge. That said, I don't have any experience with the new-ish Apex sears so you may be able to get close to the same experience with a drop in part now.

[JorDanO]

I don't shoot a M&P, but isn't the slide on the L a little lighter than the Pro?

[MemphisMechanic]

Now that that one's been accepted as internet myth, we'll be fighting it forever.

The 9L slide is *VERY* slightly lighter than the PRO's. A fraction of an ounce. Nothing, really.

The PRO front sight is too wide, and the dot too large, for many of us that wandered over from the Glock platform and are used to a Sevigny or Warren sight setup. I personally prefer my front to be about 50% of the width of the notch, with the smallest possible fiber dot - I actually keep trying plain black fronts and finding that I prefer them.

The PRO trigger is marginal-to-fine. It's also STUPID easy to replicate for free in your own 9L if you posses a large degree of mechanical know-how.

I'm not "paying a smith" to do anything. I scratch-built a couple of Ak-47 receivers using a hydraulic press and welded the gun back together in a 100% perfectly functioning firearm from a pair of $60 parts kits, so an M&P's super-tough extractor pin and rear-sight removal to do the trigger job don't sacre me very much. In my case, it was very much cheaper to skip the PRO with it's fat front sight, and ugly hitch in the trigger pull where the trigger bar first contacts the firing-pin plunger.

Edited May 13, 2010 by MemphisMechanic

[Philo_Beddoe]

if you posses a large degree of mechanical know-how.

I don't, I am an accountant by trade and dont have the time to spend fiddleing with such things, its far more economical for me to send it off and let a smith work it over then for me to bother with it. Unless is a pretty easy thing to do.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Philo_Beddoe

[CenTX]

There seems to be a lot of variation in the Pro triggers. I shot a match with a friends Pro that he had not even fired yet, he won it at a big match. The trigger was great. I bought a used Pro, Enos Classifieds with 750 rounds fired, and the trigger was very gritty all through the pull. I dropped the Apex parts in and lightly stoned the hook on the striker, pull is now about 3 lb. 10 oz. and is smooth with a short reset.

My eyes don't do well with fiber optic, but I like a big notch and a thin front sight. So I would likely have changed the sights on a 9L, like I did on the Pro.

If you like the sights on the Pro, find one with a trigger you like and buy it. I don't see how the minimal differemce in weight would be an advantage/disadvantage.

edit for grammer

Edited May 13, 2010 by CenTX

[fiddler]

I liked my Pro stock. I like it even more with a thinner front sight. I put in the Apex trigger parts and it's a little smoother but honestly I don't notice much of a difference, especially while the clock is running.

[bunsen27]

I am not an M&P shooter but the answer to your question is probably along the lines of sights and trigger being relatively subjective to most folks. Some may prefer all black sights, some FO, some wider, some narrower, some adjustable (dawson), some fixed etc. The same goes for triggers, some may like different aspects of a trigger pull, it is not always about the poundage. Some may also feel that with aftermarket parts or work that the trigger is even better than the Pro models. And yet even another reason may be that some may forgo the initial cost and upgrade the gun in stages rather than buying the full boat all at once.

You've hit the nail on the head here. The only difference between 9L and th 9Pro is the trigger and sights. These are the first two things people have changed or worked on to suit their preference so they typically opt for the lower cost model.

I went with the 9L and installed the Apex parts myself (moderate mechanical apptitude). I really like how the trigger is now compared to the factory. I'm still working on what type of sights I prefer. Factory so far is fine other than I've blacked out the rear dots. If you do decide to go with aftermarket sights REALLY do your research on front post height and rear sight combination. It can get VERY confusing quite quickly, which is why I still haven't changed mine.

I was at a 3 gun shoot this past week and three of us in the squad were running M&P's. I had the 9L while the others had the 9 Pro. We did a little side by side comparision after the match and both of the 9 Pro guys were asking me how hard it is to install the Apex parts.

[JoeInKS]

Mind you my Pro model is only a couple weeks old but thankfully, I think I got part of the batch of Pros that had a nice, non-gritty, smooth pull versus the alternative. I went over to Cabela's and compared it to the model they had and it was just a little better feeling. Now if it wasn't for the long initial take-up, it'd be darn great. Purchased the Apex parts and installed them. Noticed a very nice improvement. Took the parts off again and did some polish work on the original parts. Intend to shoot the heck out of the pistol this weekend. I am curious as to how the parts will wear-in / smooth by themselves.

If it wasn't for the fact that my Pro model was only about $20 more than the L, I probably would have gotten the L. Looking around these days I'm noticing that the price difference is up to about $60. That's a bit much. Buy the Apex parts for less.

But............... I like the cool looking "Pro" logo on the slide

Edited May 14, 2010 by JoeInKS

[G-ManBart]

The Pro was approved for Prod division first, so some folks (like me) went that route and later did sights and trigger work to make them a bit better. I put Warren Tactical rear and Dawson Precision front FO sights on mine, added a guide rod and ISMI recoil spring, swapped the sear and firing pin block for Apex parts, and added an Accurate Iron grip insert. The sights are better (for me) and the trigger is quite a bit better. The stock trigger isn't bad, but it's easy to make better without a lot of work.

Now that the 9L is also approved, I'd probably go that way and save a few bucks, although I only paid $515 delivered for my Pro

[Philo_Beddoe]

What are these "apex parts" everyone keeps talking about?

Thanks

[diehli]

What are these "apex parts" everyone keeps talking about?

Thanks

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=apex+m%26p

[TonyT]

If you plan to repalce the M&P innard with Apex parts and the sights with Dawson sights ten you might as well purchase the lower priced M&P9L.

[JoeInKS]

I agree with the previous post with respect to whether or not you intend to make modifications to your trigger and sights. Personally, I am weird, I like the little "Pro" on the slide The Apex sear was a terrific update. I was skeptical to write the least but I'm glad that I went that route. Buddy of mine just got a Pro. He also has a Glock 34, Sig X5 and a CZ Shadow. All have received professional tweaking. He loves the CZ the most but the M*P is a close second to him. He mentioned something about the M&P being an extremely good platform for tweaking. Based on his M&P compared to mine with the Apex parts, there's a noticeable difference almost to the point of being too sensitive / smooth for my tastes.

[twodownzero]

Nothing. Mine rocks for production. If i wasn't addicted to a single action trigger, I'd shoot production more. After all, 39.549% is still D, and so I'm sure I can be competitive with it.

[TonyT]

My M&P9PRO has had an excellent trigger right out of the box. Many people replace the fixed sights with an adjustable rear which also requires a higher front sight. I prefer the factory sight profile.

[tt350z]

I got the Pro because that's what they had in stock. The sights work fine for me, more aesthetically pleasing (front of slide isn't bobbed on the bottom), and of course, it says pro on the side (gotta be worth something right?). The trigger wasn't that great, but a little work with a dremel, polishing compound, and files took care of that. It took out 95% of the gritty feel, breaks clean and light and reset is positive. I don't feel that spending $90 for the whole apex kit will make enough of a difference for me.

[Lefty Gunner]

Purchased the M&P 9L added Apex sear, striker block, Glock extra power trigger spring plus polishing.... 3 1/2 lb. smooth trigger. Added Warren FO Front and Tactical rear. All of my own choices and did not have to throw away perfectly good parts.

[caspian guy]

Mine is just fine as it is... The sights are ok and seem to send the bullets to point of aim with the ammo I use (atlanta arms and ammo 147 subsonic) We tried installing an apex sear in mine but I took it out because in my gun it didn't make enough difference to be a worthwhile mod since the trigger in mine was already pretty good. (On the other hand one of my amigos put that same sear in his pro and it was a useful improvement so depending on how your trigger was to start with ymmv).

[John Thompson]

To me the whole "do not put in carry guns" turns me off of appex. I don't want anything on my gun that would make it a liablity should I choose to use it for self defense or carry.

I got a scary light tirgger on my Kimber. I don't mess with that gun loaded at all unless I'm in the starters box.

[Rob Tompkins]

I have the 9 Pro. I liked the FO front sight an the trigger was quite a bit better then a stock M&P, plus there was not a 9L in stock.

I use it to shoot IDPA and may some day use it for USPSA production (but I'm having too much fun in Limited and just got an Open gun so it might be a while).

I did replace the safety plunger with the one from SpeedShooters, mainly just because I could, it is better but you can tweak the stock part for the same feel. http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

Overall, once the buzzer goes off the difference between the standard Pro trigger and a further enhanced trigger is pretty small, IMHO.

The way I look at it, on a scale of 1 - 10 with 1 being the worst, gritty trigger you can ever find and a 10 being a premium 1911 SA trigger, let's assume the stock M&P trigger is about a "3" and the "Apex" is a 9, I'd put the standard Pro trigger at 7 or 8. Not the best for Bullseye but plenty good enough for action sports like IDPA and USPSA.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Rob Tompkins

[470nitro]

My M&P9PRO has had an excellent trigger right out of the box. Many people replace the fixed sights with an adjustable rear which also requires a higher front sight. I prefer the factory sight profile.

Totally true on the sights. If you plan on putting on a Dawson adjustable rear, you will need to change the front sight blade to a taller FO front. Mine now is a 0.305 tall (the tallest Dawson makes) and the gun still shoots slightly high at 25 yards. Not enough to be a problem.

If I had known that ahead of time, I'd have bought the L instead of the Pro. In the end, I had a good local gunsmith who specializes in M&P triggers do a trigger job which improved the factory trigger anyway.

Regarding the weight, if you want a tungsten guiderod, note that you are allowed an extra 1.0 oz (29.2 oz max on Pro vs. 28.2 oz max on L), you won't have to sweat the scale at a big match if you put in a SSS full 5" guiderod. A buddy of mine had an L and based on his home digital scale, felt close enough that he ground off 1/4" off the 5" SSS to be sure he wouldn't have a weight issue. Not like that was mandatory but he felt close enough to the limit to lose comfort.

[zhuk]

Hey hope no one minds me jumping into this thread with a kinda-related question. If you can't get the Pro (due to sub-5lb trigger), and AFAIK trigger mods are illegal (talking IPSC Production here>International rules) does the 9L grittier trigger improve sufficiently with a hell of a lot of rounds through it?

Complete and utter newb to ownership here; been shooting my club's USP with its horrendusly large (to me) grip for about a year, and the MP simply fits. Just on the point of buying my first firearm...and yes it has to be in Australia, doesn't it? Which is a PITA for many reasons