Multigun Nationals Staff

[Blockhead]

As of today we've only received 26 applications for Staff at the Multigun Nationals. We'd sure like to see another 20 or so. Some of us are working very hard to make this a world class event, but we could sure use some more help! Take a look at the Staff Application at http://www.uspsa-nationals.org/downloads/VolunteerReq2010Natnls.pdf and give it some thought.

Best Regards,

[A well Earled machine]

I turned mine in. I'll shake the tree around here and see what falls out. I should let 'em know Carl popped for dinner last year - that should real 'em in!

[Tyro Shooter]

Charlie

Will the R.O's and Range Staff be able to shoot this year?

Edited May 11, 2010 by Tyro Shooter

[LChico]

The 'experienced' Multigun stats crew from last year - Linda, Sandra & Julie - will be back. You know I wouldn't miss an excuse to go to Las Vegas!

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[MarkCO]

Charlie

Will the R.O's and Range Staff be able to shoot this year?

I'd strongly consider it IF ROs get to shoot the match.

[Blockhead]

I've lobbied for the RO's to shoot the match but so far with no success. NROI feels strongly that someone might claim a conflict of interest if the staff shoots the match for score. They take the same position with the Pistol Nationals. There's also the additional cost of 2 more days lodging and food for 30-40 and the additional 2 days of range access.

I've seen it work fine at RM3G, SMM3G, FB3G and BRM3G. All of those matches make the $$$ work for staff costs and range time (It helps to be sold out with 30 or more on the waiting list). While their RO's aren't perfect (none are), I've never heard anyone question a call based on "conflict of interest".

Maybe if we could show them a list of 20-30 RO's and/or CRO's (NROI Certified) that would be more inclined to work the match if allowed to shoot, they might reconsider.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Blockhead

[Religious Shooter]

They may have meant shooting it for fun and not for score. Possibly even an abbreviated match.

[MarkCO]

I've lobbied for the RO's to shoot the match but so far with no success. NROI feels strongly that someone might claim a conflict of interest if the staff shoots the match for score. They take the same position with the Pistol Nationals. There's also the additional cost of 2 more days lodging and food for 30-40 and the additional 2 days of range access.

I've seen it work fine at RM3G, SMM3G, FB3G and BRM3G. All of those matches make the $$$ work for staff costs and range time (It helps to be sold out with 30 or more on the waiting list). While their RO's aren't perfect (none are), I've never heard anyone question a call based on "conflict of interest".

Maybe if we could show them a list of 20-30 RO's and/or CRO's (NROI Certified) that would be more inclined to work the match if allowed to shoot, they might reconsider.

Keep lobbying, add 1 CRO with USPSA nationals ROing experience and many other major matches to your list. If they really think there can be a conflict of interest, then those types of ROs should not even be allowed to RO local matches. I think with some of the issues I heard last year, the match would be better off with 3-gun shooters who can shoot AND RO as opposed to status quo, and you would probably sell more slots as well. Thanks for your efforts Charlie. Feel free to PM or e-mail if you have questions.

[davidwiz]

Have the ROs shoot for fun (no score). I would definitely do it if I could shoot it.

Or, score the match staff separately from the regular match (that would also eliminate any conflicts of interest).

[Schutzenmeister]

I've worked several Level IV (Contentinental Championships) and the last Level V (World Shoot) HG matches ... ROs are always allowed to shoot those during the pre-match for official score. I've NEVER heard any complaints of RO conflict of interest at those levels.

(Note: Our US Nationals would be Level III events.)

[MarkCO]

I've worked several Level IV (Contentinental Championships) and the last Level V (World Shoot) HG matches ... ROs are always allowed to shoot those during the pre-match for official score. I've NEVER heard any complaints of RO conflict of interest at those levels.

(Note: Our US Nationals would be Level III events.)

And I have never heard of a RO or CRO winning a major match either. The handicap of working majors is enough to dispell that notion. Look at all of the big 3-gun matches...Folks who go and RO typically drop 10 to 20 places or more when they are working the match than when they just shoot.

[hopalong]

I agree with MarkCO, I have worked enough matches to know by experience that only the very best of the best will even be able to vie for just a "Good" match.

I also agree that if USPSA NROI was really really smart they would trash the notion of only "Certified" range officers and go out and get some good 3-gunners to be range officers and things will be much better.

But I digress, and I also know I'm smoking crack because USPSA doesn't understand 3-gunning enough to know that Pistol trained range officers don't swap over to 3-gun range officers very well. (there are examples that do though).

The very main reason the Mississippi 3-gun Challenge is running under the Horner/Benning type scoring and match format. ROs that shoot 3-gun and easy scoring (Thanks LINDA Chico)

Hopalong

[Bryan 45]

I also agree that if USPSA NROI was really really smart they would trash the notion of only "Certified" range officers and go out and get some good 3-gunners to be range officers and things will be much better.

Hopalong

I was thinking that too, just waiting for someone a little more, seasoned, to say it. Thanks Sam!

[Religious Shooter]

Well... take a look at the USPSA rulebook and tell me you don't need to have some kind of certification and formal training to administer it at a "national" level match.

[Charles Bond]

I also agree that if USPSA NROI was really really smart they would trash the notion of only "Certified" range officers and go out and get some good 3-gunners to be range officers and things will be much better.

Hopalong

I was thinking that too, just waiting for someone a little more, seasoned, to say it. Thanks Sam!

USPSA is way ahead of you and added three gun training some time ago to its range officer program. And just because you are a former NFL player that does not make you a ref.

[Flexmoney]

I believe the requirement is for just one certified NROI official per stage (inclusive of CRO).

The only place I have ever heard this conflict of interest thing is from some top level officials (guys that work the Nationals).

I think range officials should shoot the match. Keeps them grounded and in touch.

[Schutzenmeister]

Hopalong ... You sound like someone who probably shoots 3-Gun. Serious question: Are you also a certified RO? If not, why not become one and help solve the shortage of ROs with 3-Gun experience.

If you are certified, why not consider working the MG Nationals and lend a hand. We may learn something from you.

You seem to have strong feelings on the subject. With all respect, are you willing to be part of the solution?

[Doug H.]

I've lobbied for the RO's to shoot the match but so far with no success. NROI feels strongly that someone might claim a conflict of interest if the staff shoots the match for score. They take the same position with the Pistol Nationals. There's also the additional cost of 2 more days lodging and food for 30-40 and the additional 2 days of range access.

I've seen it work fine at RM3G, SMM3G, FB3G and BRM3G. All of those matches make the $$$ work for staff costs and range time (It helps to be sold out with 30 or more on the waiting list). While their RO's aren't perfect (none are), I've never heard anyone question a call based on "conflict of interest".

Maybe if we could show them a list of 20-30 RO's and/or CRO's (NROI Certified) that would be more inclined to work the match if allowed to shoot, they might reconsider.

I'm a CRO with Multigun endorsement and I worked the Multigun Nationals in 2006, 2007 and 2008. In 2006 the staff got to shoot the match for score and walked the prize table with everyone else. As far as I know that was the last time. I would not work the match in the future if the staff were not allowed to compete. If you want 3 gunners to work the match you need to let them shoot the match.

Doug

[smokshwn]

Hopalong ... You sound like someone who probably shoots 3-Gun. Serious question: Are you also a certified RO? If not, why not become one and help solve the shortage of ROs with 3-Gun experience.

If you are certified, why not consider working the MG Nationals and lend a hand. We may learn something from you.

You seem to have strong feelings on the subject. With all respect, are you willing to be part of the solution?

So I am not Sam, but I would like to answer your question. Let's say I am a 3 Gun Shooter and RO....so to help solve the problem I should go RO and subsequently relinquish my opportunity to compete. Help me understand the upside. I am thankful for the RO's that work our matches but not allowing them to shoot the match on an RO day or participate as a shooter to some extent does not further the goal of getting more 3 Gun Shooting RO's.

The issue is not simply a lack of individuals who want to find and/or be part of the solution, responsibility also lies on the organization to open a gate and create a path for any one of many solutions that have been offered both now and in years past.

This has not been done to the level that it has become effective enough to solve the problem nor has it been done to the level that many have the confidence that it will be overcome. Thus an understandable level of frustration with 3Gun officiating at USPSA events.

[Schutzenmeister]

No argument from me on that point, Smokshwn ... I have long been of the opinion that the ROs - at ANY level match - should be allowed and even encouraged to shoot the match (usally during the "pre-match") for score and credit. I do not agree with the "conflict of intrest" argument posed by some. I do, to some extent, understand the additional logistical burden of extend the event by 1-2 days in order to add on a "pre-match" for the ROs and Vendors. Nevertheless, I would maintain it is something we should do.

I do NOT support the concept of allowing non-certified ROs to work our National Championship matches. I believe this would seriously degrade the quality of the matches and raise more problems than it would solve.

[RiggerJJ]

Three things;

1. Non-certified "workers" could certainly man preload tables and other non-RO duties not including running the clock or the score sheets.

2. ROs shoots for a <> 10 stage nationals match need to be over 2 days.

3. The elephant in the room that has not been mentioned yet is why has the MD the past few 3 gun nationals been able to shoot the match and not the ROs?

jj

and a 4th; (just to make sure what my opinion on this subject is) ROs should be allowed to shoot the match for score and be included in the group! This will only IMPROVE the level of officiating.

[smokshwn]

JJ,

That is always one big damn elephant, even at pistol nats.

The other little advantage to the RO's at least shooting a portion of the match is that the stages get an actual competitive shakedown. All kinds of problems get caught and fixed before the main match.

[RiggerJJ]

JJ,

That is always one big damn elephant, even at pistol nats.

The other little advantage to the RO's at least shooting a portion of the match is that the stages get an actual competitive shakedown. All kinds of problems get caught and fixed before the main match.

Yep, I was going to post an addendum with just that point; last year's stage 1 would have had the problem fixed before 2-3 squads of "real" shooters went thru it. The ROs would have identified it, and had it fixed and had minimal reshoots that would have taken less time.

one more slightly off-topic point; Last year Charlie Brown (Blockhead) and Chris Endersby (Chendersby) were INSTRUMENTAL in making the 3 gun nationals at Boulder City a success, Kudos to those guys!

jj

Edited May 13, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[LChico]

JJ

Correction - There was a REALLY big mention about both of them at the awards - right before I picked up a plaque for doing stats. Sadly, Charlie Brown did not get to hear how MV went on about the huge help he, LeBeau, Punu and others were to the match, because they were out tearing down stages.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[RiggerJJ]

JJ

Correction - There was a REALLY big mention about both of them at the awards - right before I picked up a plaque for doing stats. Sadly, Charlie Brown did not get to hear how MV went on about the huge help he, LeBeau, Punu and others were to the match, because they were out tearing down stages.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Hmmm... I stand corrected.

jj