Can you ban a shooter?

[Fireant]

From shooting your monthly level 1 match for non safety reasons? I'll leave it at that.

[jasmap]

I would say yes depending on the situation. Conduct unbecoming can be detrimental but even that can be subjective.

Can I ask what type of problem this is? I realize it is probably not my business but if the conduct is completely disrupting or so poor that it inhibits other shooters then me or others could chime in with a more definite answer.

[Sarge]

The club should be able to if they have decent by-laws and such.

[aztecdriver]

In the rule book - 6.4.4 and 6.4.5 deal with this:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

You don't want to get into the reasons why - and that's fine, but according to the USPSA it does need to be explained to Sedro Wooley.

[Sandro]

The club should be able to if they have decent by-laws and such.

I have seeing this done before. The by-laws need to clearly say multiple safety violation will get you out for X time or for ever at this club.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Sandro

[mactiger]

Absolutely. aztecdriver cited the correct rules. Regardless of your club bylaws, this can be done under USPSA auspices, but must be documented.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

Please talk the issue over with your leadership. Which might include the Match Director and the local RO's and CRO's, your Section Coordinator, your Area Director, club officials, etc.

Get a broad base of input and support.

[Nik Habicht]

Please talk the issue over with your leadership. Which might include the Match Director and the local RO's and CRO's, your Section Coordinator, your Area Director, club officials, etc.

Get a broad base of input and support.

Flex gives you good advice. I'd also add the hosting club's Board of Directors to the mix, especially if the person in question is a member of the club, or could become one.

While multiple folks have cited the correct rules for USPSA, it should be noted that if the Club's Board of Directors chooses to take an action affecting either a club member or a guest, it's not subject to reporting to USPSA or to USPSA intervention. (In the case of a club member it's an internal club matter; in the case of banning an individual from the premises it's also between the club and the individual; if the club chooses to ban a non-member from USPSA matches only, then that would probably fall under mandatory reporting.)

[kgunz11]

From shooting your monthly level 1 match for non safety reasons? I'll leave it at that.

Same guy that pointed a gun uprange last time we shot together? I thought it was funny when the squad ran to the side of the bay and it was just you and I standing there talking, then I realized why they ran. He has a history of AD's and 180 violations doesn't he? I don't know the guys name, but I'll never forget his face or the muzzle.

[Schutzenmeister]

I would also add the RO has the authority to expel individuals from the range under 10.6.1 and/or 10.6.2 ... It's kind of rare, but the authority is there. I would think the final decision would be with the MD and/or RM.

[PeterMor]

My section actually has the following DQ policy:

Two DQ’s by a competitor in any rolling 3 month period will require that competitor to undergo - and pass - another Shooter Safety Check using USPSA safety check procedures.

» Following this, if the competitor has another DQ within 3 months after completing this safety check, they will be placed on a 3 month probation period during which they will be barred from shooting at any Section club match. After that, the competitor will once again be required to successfully to pass another safety check. Following this, should the shooter DQ again within a 3 month period, they will be permanently suspended from shooting in the section, otherwise their DQ record will be cleared.

[shooterbenedetto]

Hot headed and just doesnt get along with any

of the squads? then fights a shooter or something, Oh yeah!!

[Religious Shooter]

O yeah... I've known of several instances of people getting banned from a match.

Sometimes it's a one year ban... and sometimes it's a forever thing.

[Nik Habicht]

I would also add the RO has the authority to expel individuals from the range under 10.6.1 and/or 10.6.2 ... It's kind of rare, but the authority is there. I would think the final decision would be with the MD and/or RM.

That can get touchy really quickly --- especially if the shooter is a club member at the venue and the RO is not. I'd strongly urge any RO at the club level to have a conversation with the MD and RM first. (At the Sectional, State, Area level and up there's usually a more defined system in place -- so ROs aren't hanging on their own, but have the support of a CRO and an RM easily available)

[twodownzero]

For non safety reasons? Good luck. One of the good things about having a USPSA card, as I see it, is the ability to show up and shoot at any club.

I would think that you'd have to have a damn good, explainable reason. I also suspect that the discretion of the local club would be very limited if they want to continue to hold USPSA matches.

If someone is unsafe, it shouldn't be a problem. But banning a card-carrying, dues paying USPSA member from a match seems (presumptively) problematic to me, absent some compelling reason (typically safety infractions).

I've not ever met anybody who I thought was so unsafe that they should be banned indefinitely from a club, though, so perhaps my experience hasn't demonstrated a need to attempt to test the rules and find out. My intuition suggests that doing so for non-safety reasons would be seriously problematic if your club still expects to hold USPSA matches.

[LChico]

For non safety reasons? Good luck. One of the good things about having a USPSA card, as I see it, is the ability to show up and shoot at any club.

I would think that you'd have to have a damn good, explainable reason. I also suspect that the discretion of the local club would be very limited if they want to continue to hold USPSA matches.

If someone is unsafe, it shouldn't be a problem. But banning a card-carrying, dues paying USPSA member from a match seems (presumptively) problematic to me, absent some compelling reason (typically safety infractions).

I've not ever met anybody who I thought was so unsafe that they should be banned indefinitely from a club, though, so perhaps my experience hasn't demonstrated a need to attempt to test the rules and find out. My intuition suggests that doing so for non-safety reasons would be seriously problematic if your club still expects to hold USPSA matches.

Gross Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Speciffically, the two shooters I am referring to were banned from the range & all matches at the range for

1.) Cheating: Caught altering times and leaving off penalties for a friend.

2.) Profane, belligerant behavior while under the influence: he didn't have a gun in his hand, but he was obviously drunk and trying to pick a fight.

Both these shooters were banned by the club (not the USPSA group specifically) but I wouldn't have had a problem with banning either one of them from USPSA matches.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[twodownzero]

Drunk = safety violation. That one is easy. USPSA would never question it.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is dealt with by the rule book. A shooter can be DQed for that, and should be. I don't think that is grounds for bannage from a club, however, and I suspect that the USPSA would agree with me.

The USPSA expects us to welcome newbies, follow our rules, and deal with situations fairly. Banning someone for being a jerk doesn't reflect well on our sport. Banning someone for being drunk and wanting to fight is a totally different ball game.

[Vlad]

Actually banning someone for being jerk should reflect positively upon our sport. Look, all of us there are armed, if someone is being a belligerent abusive prick, I have no problem kicking them off the range and asking them to never return, BEFORE it becomes a safety issue. If USPSA has an issue with that, tough, I'll do it through the club board, so the shooter is welcomed to shoot the match, just not welcomed to step a foot onto the club property. Those who know me know damn well that I'm very newbie friendly but I am not a_-hole friendly.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Vlad

[Pezco]

Yes, we've ban someone from our club before for conduct unbecoming of our image.

[JFlowers]

While you haven't given us much to go on, I will tell you what I did when I had this situation in a different sport.

Write a letter of recommendation. The letter is not really for anyone at this point, just a vehicle to get your thoughts organized. What is your recommendation? Banning from the match, the club, the sport? Why are you making this recommendation? Is the reason personal, safety, ethics, etc? Cite specific instances and witness that can be contacted. Cite the specific rules from the Club or USPSA that cover this. Can the issue be resolved? Has an attempt at remdiation been made?

Once you have your thoughts together, does proceeding make sense? Sometimes we get caught in the heat of the moment. If it does, start listing who needs to become involved. This could be the Match Director, the Club Board, the Section Corrdinator. However, don't involve people who don't need to be involved. Your goal here is to resolve a problem, not hurt feelings more than needed.

Now that you have a written plan, start actioning it. Rewrite the letter into a more formal document and start it forward up the authority chain.

If the case is safety, as kgunz11 hinted, then maybe the ban needs to be local match only with a remdiation plan in place. Then, after discussion with the MD and SC, you need basically a letter to the shooter with copies to the Match Director and Sectiona Corrdinator. Inform the shooter that for their safety and the safety of others, you can not allow them to compete. Cite specifics. But that you understand learning good habits under the clock is difficult, so arrangements have been made with (local top shooters, good instructors, etc) Mr X and Mr Y for a half-day basic skills class. Upon satisfactory completion of that class, the shooter would be welcome back.

Sometimes the shooters action are such that no resolution is possible or the resolution is something that the shooter must do for themselves (AA, Anger Management, etc).

Hope this helped in what is always an uncomfortable situation.

[Flexmoney]

Yes, we've ban someone from our club before for conduct unbecoming of our image.

And, I will add that that went up through the leadership chain.

Also consider that shooters may refuse to squad with a problem child. And, the volunteer staff may choose not to volunteer.

[Fireant]

While you haven't given us much to go on, I will tell you what I did when I had this situation in a different sport.

Write a letter of recommendation. The letter is not really for anyone at this point, just a vehicle to get your thoughts organized. What is your recommendation? Banning from the match, the club, the sport? Why are you making this recommendation? Is the reason personal, safety, ethics, etc? Cite specific instances and witness that can be contacted. Cite the specific rules from the Club or USPSA that cover this. Can the issue be resolved? Has an attempt at remdiation been made?

Once you have your thoughts together, does proceeding make sense? Sometimes we get caught in the heat of the moment. If it does, start listing who needs to become involved. This could be the Match Director, the Club Board, the Section Corrdinator. However, don't involve people who don't need to be involved. Your goal here is to resolve a problem, not hurt feelings more than needed.

Now that you have a written plan, start actioning it. Rewrite the letter into a more formal document and start it forward up the authority chain.

Sometimes the shooters action are such that no resolution is possible or the resolution is something that the shooter must do for themselves (AA, Anger Management, etc).

Hope this helped in what is always an uncomfortable situation.

Thanks for all the replies. This one might hit right where I should look. I might be making it personal, but when the shooter makes the two people that make the matches happen want to hang out a closed sign and drive to another match something just might need to be done. I guess it never helps when BOTH parties might need some anger management sessions

[Schutzenmeister]

I would also add the RO has the authority to expel individuals from the range under 10.6.1 and/or 10.6.2 ... It's kind of rare, but the authority is there. I would think the final decision would be with the MD and/or RM.

That can get touchy really quickly --- especially if the shooter is a club member at the venue and the RO is not. I'd strongly urge any RO at the club level to have a conversation with the MD and RM first. (At the Sectional, State, Area level and up there's usually a more defined system in place -- so ROs aren't hanging on their own, but have the support of a CRO and an RM easily available)

Fully agreed ... I wanted to say the RM is the authority, but the specific rules state the RO makes the call. That being said, I cannot envision such a decision actually being made without the final decision coming from the RM and/or MD. In the roughly 18 years I've been in this sport I've seen this situation MAYBE twice ... As I said, rare.

[ALBY]

your club and range rules will be more effective than USPSA for this purpose.

USPSA matches are held at private ranges, which have all the rights of a property owner.

we had a guy spin a loaded gun in the air and reholster it at one of our big matches. needless to say, that guy will never step foot on our range again, no matter what USPSA has to say about it.

[Nik Habicht]

Drunk = safety violation. That one is easy. USPSA would never question it.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is dealt with by the rule book. A shooter can be DQed for that, and should be. I don't think that is grounds for bannage from a club, however, and I suspect that the USPSA would agree with me.

The USPSA expects us to welcome newbies, follow our rules, and deal with situations fairly. Banning someone for being a jerk doesn't reflect well on our sport. Banning someone for being drunk and wanting to fight is a totally different ball game.

Clubs are private enterprises and can ban anyone from their property --- right up to threatening the individual with a trespassing charge upon return. USPSA won't get into the middle of that. This isn't something done lightly, you've typically got to convince a Board of Directors that it's the right call.....

When the USPSA organization at the club makes that decision -- that's where notification to Sedro Woolley kicks in. I'd expect that's where Area Directors and Section Coordinators also get involved in the discussion....