Who are you shooting against?

[old506]

Couple of questions that I can't figure out as far as scoring goes and who wins after everything is tallied up.

Are you shooting against shooters in your own division or against everyone or both? If a shooter in SS and Open ties do they tie or is an edge given to the one shooting SS. If someone who is classified as an A ties a M does the A come out ahead? Is there a handicap or are you shootin against yourself? If someone shooting Minor ties someone shooting Major at the end of the day does the Minor win?

Just a few questions that weren't real clear in the rule books and other places I looked.

[Aristotle]

What do you mean by "Tie". You are shooting against people in your division and class, advantage does not go to anyone, it's whomever has the highest Hit factor.

Do you mean by "overall".

[BSeevers]

You are scored against people in your division and class.

Your A vs M and minor vs major don't mean anything. Ties are so rare I only remember possibly one in 20 years. Now some A's might still get motivation ranking above a M even if there are no A's there at that specific match. High Overall in division is a pretty big deal no matter what class you are in.

A lot of people want to see how they rank against higher classed shooters in their division and other divisions but that is a just a fun High Overall Combined result and it doesn't mean anything cept bragging rights/

[old506]

I haven't shot, yet so it is a naive question. I went on the local range website and they had the scores posted. They had each stage with all the competitors listed down from that. The first person listed was the fastest with the highest hit factor and so on until that last person on the stage.

Then all of the divisions were listed with, of course the highest score listed for the match.

Next all the shooters were listed in one list regardless of division or class.

I was just wondering how they figured who won? It seems that a SS shooter or revolver shooter has a pretty big disatvantage going up against the other divisions.

I guess I was wondering who you are competing with directly, division, class, everyone.

[Aristotle]

That's entirely up to you.

When you start out, don't even think about overall in your division or match. You shoot against yourself. Then as you develop, you shoot against the folks in your class, within in your division. Further down the line you start thinking about Overall within your division. Then when you get get up there, all that matters is match overall.

Trust me, none of the guys in Open division feel special beating guys in Revolver or Production.

But when awards are dished out, it's for Class winners within the division, then division overalls and match overall.

[calishootr]

depending on the level ofthe match, say for a 'local' match usually you are ranked only as to what you shoot ie production or SS or Lim-10 etc...and everyone regardless of class is tossed into that division, the bigger matches say sectional or area matches you are placed in a division based on your equipment AND now your skill level using that equipment(class)

for instance, i shoot A class in both open and Limited, at local matches im just an open or limited shooter, but at say the nationals i would be in open class shooting against only other people in A class....make sense???

to simplify things, dont worry about any of that, go out and basically shoot for yourself, your opponent should be justthe particular stage your on,to getthe best hits in the most effcient amount oftime possible....an to do it safely and to HAVE FUN

[NoSteel]

I shoot against myself...... And at matches like this past weekend I do a pretty good job of beating my score down...

[G-ManBart]

I'm not sure why some folks are saying that you're only competing against the other shooters in the same division, and the same class. That's not true. You're competing against everyone else in the same division. For the purposes of awards, and sometimes prizes, you're also competing against shooters in the same division and the same class.

Each shooter will be ranked within their division, regardless of class. So, you can say, "I was 10th in Limited at Area 4" regardless of what class you were/are, and it means something. Saying "I was third B at Area 4" is valid, but you could have finished lower (higher number overall) than the shooter who was first C, so it's not really as good a representation of how you performed.

Combined results sheets are interesting trivia, but that's about it. I like to see combined results, just because I think it's interesting to compare my performance against higher classed shooters in other divisions, but that's just out of curiosity.

Everyone gets motivated by different things. I might not care one bit about awards within class (I don't) but for other folks it's a big deal to win their class, and if that keeps them working and going to matches, it's reason enough to have them

[kz45]

I shoot against myself...... And at matches like this past weekend I do a pretty good job of beating my score down...

I lol'd

[HS101]

When I started last year, I treated my score as if I was golfing: I was looking for improvement each time I went to a match. My actual goal was to get maximum points, and to stay under "double the time of the best shooter" (bear in mind, I was shooting production, and Dave Sevigney was at my first several matches). I also set time goals for moving up to the next class (example: "C" by my birthday, "B" by June - my current goal in Production and Limited 10)

If I am shooting in a prize match (Area Match, etc...) I still go for my best possible score. Last year at Fort Benning (3 gun) I was watching the score sheets, and knew what I "needed" to do to move up in the standings (it was a 3 day match, so I knew what I needed to score on the third day). Worst mistake ever! I got so caught up in what times I needed, I shot too fast and sloppy, had to take a lot of makeups, ended up going slower than ever... If I had just stuck to my game plan, I "might" have finished 1 or 2 places better (I finished .6 of a point behind the person in front of me).

Use whatever it takes to motivate you to get better. Use prizes, trophies, money, etc... as bonuses.

[mgood]

I've won Singlestack Division at two local matches now. . . . But I was the only shooter in Singlestack both times.

I've beat a B Class shooter a couple times, but that particular guy is a "hero or zero" type, meaning he goes all out and either does really well or completely crashes and burns. When he crashes, is when I beat him.

I've had at least one stage where I beat a Master Class shooter. He zeroed that stage, but that's not my problem.

I look for anything I can point to and say, "Look, I did better than this guy here, and he's really good." Anything I can do to encourage myself.

In a local monthly match I usually shoot, we often have several decent B and C Class shooters in Singlestack, which is the division I usually shoot. My near-term goal is to win Singlestack there, on a day when the good SS shooters are actually shooting SS. (Any one or all of them might be shooting a different division at any given match.)

Beating a guy twice my age and someone's wife who's there for the first time is getting old. I need a lot more work if I'm going to regularly beat people who can actually shoot.

But yeah, the answer to the original question is that you compete within your division, and that can be broken down further to within your class in your division. Overall combined results are just for fun, unless maybe you're high overall. (And at local matches with twelve to twenty shooters, which is what I usually see, there might be divisions with only one shooter, so combined scores are the only way to compete with anyone.)

[Matt Griffin]

Here's a more complicated answer:

You're shooting, for results, only against other shooters in your division.

You can shoot for pride against other shooters in your division of your same class or higher.

You can shoot for double pride against shooters in a less-restrictive division of your same class or higher as well. (Production can be proud to beat everyone but SS and REV, L10 can be proud to beat Lim and Open, etc.)

You can shoot for triple pride with a revolver, cross-dominance, and being left-handed. ;-)

But at the prize table at a match, it usually goes

1. Top shooters in divisions

2. 2nd shooters in divisions

3. Xth shooters in divisions (number of these depends on the match and number of entries)

4. Top Master in divisions

5. Top A in divisions

. . . etc.

Throw in some senior, military, lady, and junior awards, and that's how it goes.

Since this is the beginner forum, though, you should just be shooting against the guys in your division, same class or higher.

Aaaaand to answer your original question, for scoring, you are only shooting against your division, but against everyone in your division. If a GM posts the best hit factor on a stage, that's the 100% mark for all shooters, GM through D. Shooters in other divisions do not affect your score in any way.

H.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Houngan

[Corey]

Im beginning as well, dont even have a classification. As soon as I do, itll be trying to beat the other guys in my class. last match I did finish one stage higher than 2 M-class shooters in my division, so that made me happy and gives me some motivation.

Its fun to shoot with a bunch of different divsions on the same squad to see how other divisions tackle the same COF. when the end of the dy comes, you compete within your class and within your division.

[Sarge]

Its fun to shoot with a bunch of different divsions on the same squad to see how other divisions tackle the same COF.

Hi Corey,

This can be a double edged sword though. Watching limited and especially open shooters can really mess a production shooter up. I watch them for the entertainment value mostly. The guys I really like to watch are the top production shooters since they have to do the COF with the same set up as me. Sometimes they will run a COF in a way that I never would have imagined.

[Chris Keen]

Its fun to shoot with a bunch of different divsions on the same squad to see how other divisions tackle the same COF.

Hi Corey,

This can be a double edged sword though. Watching limited and especially open shooters can really mess a production shooter up. I watch them for the entertainment value mostly. The guys I really like to watch are the top production shooters since they have to do the COF with the same set up as me. Sometimes they will run a COF in a way that I never would have imagined.

Yes and that works both ways too. A LTD guy watchin' Production shooters, or for that matter - any other division that has round limitations, is liable to say "Why did he shoot THAT target from there?" until he realizes that the 10 round limit changes the game a little bit.

So I know it's not always possible, but I like how they do it at the Nationals where they put all Production shooters on 1 squad, or all Open shooters on another squad (sometimes a squad is split 50/50). Believe me, it's very weird, and kinda frustrating, to be on a squad with 2 Production, 1 L10, 2 Limited, 1 Open, 1 Revo, and 3 Single Stackers!

[Corey]

very good points. its always nice to have a couple shooters from your division to maybe show you something you hadnt seen, but sometimes it is fun to watch a Open shooter just go running around blasting everything in sight. maybe that will be me one day

[bbbean]

very good points. its always nice to have a couple shooters from your division to maybe show you something you hadnt seen, but sometimes it is fun to watch a Open shooter just go running around blasting everything in sight. maybe that will be me one day

Ideally, the two or three shooters immediately ahead of me are in my division but a couple of classes above me. This is particularly true in SS, Prod, and Lim-10.

[rvb]

Believe me, it's very weird, and kinda frustrating, to be on a squad with 2 Production, 1 L10, 2 Limited, 1 Open, 1 Revo, and 3 Single Stackers!

Agreed, especially on a very complicated stage that you have to spend some time visuallizing where all the targets are... some of those stages where you can see the same targets from 5 places take a bit to figure out and program in, and when you're watching everyone on your squad do it differently, it can scramble your brains. it plants seeds in your subconscious that you don't want to be there...

It's bad enough when your squad is all in the same division and still have different plans....

-rvb

[XD Niner]

Officially, I am shooting against the other competitors in my divsion. Like many others, I partially measure myself against folks I know that are a level above me in skill. However, I really shoot against my "perfect" self.

After a stage and match I always try to learn from my successes as well as my mistakes. What did I do really well and how can I repeat that performance on a routine basis? What mistakes did I make and what changes can I make to prevent them in the future? How could I have improved my stage strategy? These are the questions I ask myself.

I grew up in Green Bay during the Packers' glory years. Here's a quote that I take to heart:

” Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. “ - Vince Lombardi

[Chris iliff]

I shoot against myself mostly. Seems to keep me moving up, although slower than I want. I know several really good "A" and "M" class guys and shoot with them fairly regular. I shoot Open, they don't. I do take a little satisfaction from beating a guy in Production with my open gun, if he is 2 or more classes above me. If they are shooting a limited gun, then one class above me. I see these examples as fairly equal to each other. That might not be realistic but we are all friends and have a blast. As a "B" class open shooter, I don't beat those guys every time out. Probably less often than more often, but it is always close.

SS against SS, REV against REV, L10 against L10....................so on.

"A" SS beats "B" SS .......he should.

"B" SS beats "A" SS .......he should rub it in and dance a jig!

[BradGannaway]

I'm always shooting against the midget that's chasing me.

[CocoBolo]

The reality is everyone wants to see their name on the top line of the results. At local matches where there is nothing to be won its just for fun and I have to say its a lot of fun. I shoot open, been shooting it for a while and am finally starting to like it, why did I do it, my goal was to be in the top 20 of a 60 shooter match, I couldn't get there with my Single Stack, I couldn't do it consistently with my Limited gun, so I moved up to open division, been as high as second. Even a blind hog finds a acorn once in a while. Had a good day and tried harder not to mess up than the rest.

At major matches you compete for prizes and its by division and class but as always the BigDawgs get to the food first, aka prizes as it is overall order of finish, another reason I shoot open rather be at the bottom of page two than four.

I like the matches that have prizes by random drawing and awards by division and class its the best of both worlds. The BigDawgs get an award to puff up their chest and I win the match gun in the drawing it works for me. I won two guns last year.

Honestly it takes a lot of effort skill and money to get to be a BigDawg but you can have a lot of fun as a pup just shooting and enjoying it and trying to get just a little bit better every time you do it.

Idealistly and by the rules we compete by division, class, sex and age division when the appropriate number of participants are in the competition. Even as an RO I can't tell you of any tie busters, but then I have not seen any ties yet, any match directors got that answer?

[old506]

The tie question was hypothetical. I was just trying to get an idea on how it works. Thanks for all the well thought out and explained answers.

[MTBfarms]

Its fun to shoot with a bunch of different divsions on the same squad to see how other divisions tackle the same COF.

Hi Corey,

This can be a double edged sword though. Watching limited and especially open shooters can really mess a production shooter up. I watch them for the entertainment value mostly. The guys I really like to watch are the top production shooters since they have to do the COF with the same set up as me. Sometimes they will run a COF in a way that I never would have imagined.

You know we always learn something from watching Bill.

[BSeevers]

Who is this Bill and how can I shoot with him?

Shooting is shooting and I really like the quote that shooting is simple but not simple to get good at. I think when you get past ten/eight/six rds being the reason you shoot a stage a certain way(very often true) its all about Points, Positions, Transitions and Footing. Now I agree that a Prod C might not take the same 19 yd shot that I do with my Open but there is something to learn from everybody and I believe if a Open guy's run affects your Prod run then if your say a C Prod then a GM Prod might do the same thing to your performance. Shoot your game and back to the org thread post. I think when you start you shoot against your class/div but later you might shoot for HOA. Lately I have been considering shooting to be King of the World. (is there a trophy for that)

I do like helping people get better but I am starting to get like the grizzled old drill sergeant. New "recruits" make the same mistakes or issues, over and over and I feel like I have to bark and give them that tough love. haha

Thanks Micheal