New Rules

[Gary Stevens]

I have attempted to attach the recent rule changes. Hope they are actually there.

Rule Changes 030110.doc

[Flatland Shooter]

I have attempted to attach the recent rule changes. Hope they are actually there.

Hello Gary,

I appreciate you posting these changes. Can you tell me where they are posted? I looked through the USPSA.org website and was unable to find them.

Thanks.

Bill

[Chris Keen]

Hello Gary,

I appreciate you posting these changes. Can you tell me where they are posted? I looked through the USPSA.org website and was unable to find them.

Thanks.

Bill

See the link above your post.

[Gary Stevens]

I think at this point you have to dig them out of the BOD meeting minutes (on line).

They will be posted to the rules section of the webpage soon.

Currently just print them out. I reduced the pages and stapled them into my rulebook (handgun rules). Additionally I marked out or make some other indication in the old rule to check the new rule. Important to keep current when you are trying to research a rule issue.

[Joe4d]

looks like no more magnets in the pocket other than that just looks like some clarifications.

[shootingchef]

removed for being me.

Edited March 5, 2010 by shootingchef

[sperman]

Are these rules in effect right now or is there a future start date?

From the first line of the document:

RuleChanges effective 03/01/2010

[smokshwn]

flying clays just became a moot point.

I realize this is in response to popper activated clays being inconsistent however there should be a provision for machine/mechanically thrown clays that can be demonstrated to have a consistent presentation.

[Gary Stevens]

Both comments about magnets in pockets and flying clay birds have me scratching my head.

Where does it talk about magnets?

The bird issue seems good to me. Hit it and you get time taken off your total. Miss it and there is no increase in time other than what it took to shoot at it.

What am I missing?

Edited March 5, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[BayouSlide]

Really appreciate the heads up on these changes, Gary.

Curtis

[Wakal]

9.1.3 ...if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor’s opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called.

Is this The Dharst Rule?

A

[Gary Stevens]

The part you quote is not new. The new part is in the part of not being able to determine a correct score.

Previously, on a new set of targets, if it was prematurely pasted and a stage RO did not see the hits, it was a mandatory reshoot. Even if the two hits were perfect centered A zone hits and there was not doubt in anyones mind, it had to be a reshoot. Now that is changed that if a correct score can be determined it is good to go.

[smokshwn]

Gary,

Can't help you on the magnets.

I may be mistaken but I don't believe Daniel Horner shot at a single flying clay at Nats last year. Why shoot at something that not only costs time but eats a round of ammo in a weapon where the result is decidedly weighted toward reloading.

The rule effectively makes shooting at flying clays a waste of time, unless you allow multiple bonus points.

[Gary Stevens]

Well it all depends on what the bonus is. If it is , for instance, 5 seconds off your time, is it worth shooting at it? What if there are two birds, is 10 seconds off your time worth taking a couple of shots?

What say you?

[Sarge]

Both comments about magnets in pockets and flying clay birds have me scratching my head.

Where does it talk about magnets?

The bird issue seems good to me. Hit it and you get time taken off your total. Miss it and there is no increase in time other than what it took to shoot at it.

What am I missing?

I'm not sure, but could the poster be talking about putting magnets in your pockets and sticking the magnet to your leg area? The clarification here takes that away?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

[Gary Stevens]

Actually this took nothing away, only clarified that you would not be penalized for going to your pocket at anytime. If you could use magnets last week, you still can. Of course this all depends on Division equipment locations.

Read the old rule, and then compare it with this one.

[D.Hayden]

Well it all depends on what the bonus is. If it is , for instance, 5 seconds off your time, is it worth shooting at it? What if there are two birds, is 10 seconds off your time worth taking a couple of shots?

What say you?

I like that. Would this work San Angelo or Time Plus, or both?

[Nik Habicht]

Both comments about magnets in pockets and flying clay birds have me scratching my head.

Where does it talk about magnets?

The bird issue seems good to me. Hit it and you get time taken off your total. Miss it and there is no increase in time other than what it took to shoot at it.

What am I missing?

I'm not sure, but could the poster be talking about putting magnets in your pockets and sticking the magnet to your leg area? The clarification here takes that away?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Reading 5.2.4, it seems to limit competitors to either mag pouches or pockets, eliminating the waistband or sticking a mag to a pocket (where the pocket contains a magnet. It's also unclear whether a mag stuck to a magnet outside of a magpouch would be legal in any division.....

[BayouSlide]

It's also unclear whether a mag stuck to a magnet outside of a magpouch would be legal in any division.....

Which the exception of that word "in" as a potential qualifier, to me the wording would seem to otherwise allow carrying mags on magnetic type retention devices on the belt that were designed expressly for that purpose.

Curtis

5.2.4 During the course of fire, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Edited: to clarify a phrase

Edited March 5, 2010 by BayouSlide

[smokshwn]

Gary or anybody for that matter.

Maybe I should ask the background of the rule first.

My understanding was that the reasoning behind making the flying clay a no penalty mike is that when launched by many of the teeter totter mechanisms which rely on a falling popper the target presentation was very inconsistent. This lead to either the need to reshoot each shooter until they received a fair target presentation (unlikely) or score the clay as a NPM. When scored as an NPM it was oftentimes to the shooter's benefit to ignore the flying clay and concentrate on the other targets in the stage.

Is this the case?

If so by allowing an increased bonus value to be place on the same target are we now not back to having an inconsistent thus unfair target presentation from shooter to shooter which since their is now an increased bonus value would change the outcome of the stage. Again based on insconsistent target presentation which was what we were trying to get away from anyway.

If I am up in the night help me out.

[Gary Stevens]

The issue came up on disappearing targets. As you noted there was no incentive to engage them. By adding a bonus, whatever that maybe at that time, then you give the shooter the option to take the chance, engage and maybe benefit or to just let them go and take the raw time/points. To me this seems like a further step of freestyle. You have choices, choose wisely.

Nik, if you read the old rule to prohibit magnets then your reading of this rule would be the same. I can tell you from being involved in this that the only intent was to clarify that you would not be penalized for using a magazine in your pocket. I refer to the previous thread on this forum about that very subject.

If a target does not present the same challenge to all shooters it is REF and is removed from the stage.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[smokshwn]

Gary,

Got it. This change was meant to address only the disappearing target angle. Now we just need to deal with the inconsistent presentation and we have it. With respect to the REF I think all would agree that it will continue to be a point of contention with the manually thrown targets. But I guess we'll see. Thanks for the updates.

BTW I should mention that I would much rather shoot targets than leave them.

Edited March 5, 2010 by smokshwn

[ima45dv8]

Gary, Nik has me intrigued by his reading and the idea that the re-write is, "...eliminating the waistband or ...". Can you comment on that? Would the waistband now be unallowed since is neither a device designed for carrying ammo nor a pocket? A literal reading would suggest this is so.

[Gary Stevens]

Correct on the disappearing targets. The solution to the other issue is already in the rulebook, REF. Reshoots for sure or it gets tossed if it is not equal, and most likely the stage goes also.

The bonus can be whatever the stage designer dictates. It could be deucted time, or extra points for success. A no penalty mike for failure.

[Gary Stevens]

Read the old rule, and tell me what you would say if I stuck a magazine down the back of my belt.

Now read the new rule and tell me what you would say if I stuck a magazine down the back of my belt.

The word waistband doesn't appear in either of my versions, unless I need my glasses changed again.