kimel Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Berkim, no reason to be sorry. It was a "positive stroke" and I appreciated it. Thank you! I would be happy to help USPSA in an advisory capacity but I sure can't take on the entire USPSA site. A single area site, yeah, I could do that, at least for awhile to get it onto its feet. But like George, I am in this to shoot and I have my shooting goals for 2004 as well. Let me state again that I am not bashing Rob Boudrie; I don't think any of us are. Anyone that has that impression please PM or email me and we can discuss. Rob has had to make something out of nothing for no compensation. He certainly has given more than his share to the sport and we all owe him a debt of gratitude for taking USPSA this far into the virtual world. And don't forget to add his yeoman service as an Area Director and the moderator for the "unofficial IPSC email list". But, as George and I have stated, there is only so much one person, especially a volunteer, can do. Thank you Rob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Hot Tub + 802.11 PDA + Ziploc bag, anyone? If you have to ask, you have a life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 802.11 PDA: Check. Ziplock: Check. Hot tub: uh oh. Damn. It is 10 freaking degrees here right now so I kinda doubt I would be hitting the hot tub right now anyway...if I had one. Life? What's a life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 BTW, anyone that volunteers to put in the time it takes to do continuing service to the sport in any manner without compensation is to be heavily honored and thanked profusely. It is terribly hard to get anything done at all on a volunteer basis, let alone do a bangup job of it. The only good thing about being a volunteer is that there usually aren't too many other people around getting in the way when you are trying to get some serious work done I believe that paying well for service is the only way to expect quality results in any endeavor. As long as the budget is tight and there is a lot of work to be done, there will always be compromises in some or all facets of the service(s) provided. My continied admiration and heartfelt thanks to all who work without compensation for our shooting sport(s) I have a professional philosophy that says to either charge full rate, or give it away free, because If I charge full boat, I will deliver at 110%. If I give it away for free I will also deliver 110%, but cannot guarantee my availability will fit your requirements because paying customers come first, you figure the rest here. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 A web site that projects the right image does make a huge difference. Case in point: I'm just dropping by here while I'm on the web finding a company to use for a snowmobile tour in the next couple of days. I've found 2 prospects. One has an old 1 page web site that says "we existed some time in the 90s"; the other has a modern web site with information on the tours and rates. Guess which I'm going to call first? I would imagine that today many people use the web as their first point of conntact for most things (or maybe I'm projecting ) and that funneling people in the right direction is one of the most significant contributions a "governing body" could make to the grass roots. As many others have said, volunteer sites start well but fade. Maybe someone who understands how the system works (i.e. not me ) should suggest that this be seriously looked at. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 The USPSA Store uses a commerical order processing system which sends out confirming emails. If you have placed an order and not received one, I can check; make sure it is in the system; and see what email address you typed in when submitting the order. The actual order processing is done by Americart (www.americart.com), a vendor which specializes in secure commerce. I used this service instead of the Miva Merchant commerce package on our server, as this approach allows me to leave the security issues to a firm which specializes in such things. The last thing I want to have to do worry about is potential buffer overrun bugs if I leave a database connection port open on the USPSA server; get a new version of SSH; etc. There are improvements coming to the look and feel - which were done by a professional. That suits me just fine, and my main priority is creating new data management features like classifier and score upload; self serve squadding; etc. One interesting aspect of the volunteer development is we have been able to figure out the utility of a feature after it's delivered. If USPSA were going to pay a consultant on a per-feature basis, we would have to justify the expense. I won't assign a probability, but my guess is that getting a purchase order approved to add a new feature like "self service match squadding" would be next to impossible. I would love it if we had pros to maintain the page, and I could work exclusively on new features and special projects. I am constantly having to choose which project to take on - and the choice frequently comes down to "make this look prettier" or "add this functionality." So far, functionality has won out on a fairly regular basis. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Which is why it is time for USPSA to just bite the bullet and hire a full-time web developer. Consultants aren't really a long term answer for the reasons you cite. I agree that there is a balancing act and this would occur even if USPSA had a dozen full-time web developers. I know we all look forward to seeing the new web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 What would you look for in a full time web developer? Graphic expertise, or software development expertise for data management? These are *very* different skills - a pure graphics designer probably would not be able to add features like point series processing, classifier upload and squadding support. A development expert probably would not be the greatest gaphic designer in the world. There is no easy solution. And nobody has provided a solution on finding the funds to pay such a person . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 My two cents here but... What use is a lot of cool functionality for the existing membership if we have zilch to attract new members? A holding pattern strategy is not going to attract membership. Sounds to me like your interest is the "behind the scenes" nuts and bolts stuff and what is missing is the graphical talent. So, that would be where I would suggest we go first. "We" also need to take a look at our main page from the prospective/new shooter perspective. We have a member's page to handle the member stuff so let's use the other page for promotion of the sport and recruitment of new shooters. On the current main USPSA page where is the "new shooter" info? Wayyyy down the page. There needs to be a graphical link front and center for this. If it were up to me, which I realize it is not, I would concentrate on providing a more attractive site with content such as has been discussed earlier which can benefit current membership but which will also attract new membership. Downloadable/streaming informational videos, match footage, etc. would be great. How about the safety orientation as a video? Get some footage from something like Nolan's "Hoser Cam" with background narration of what it looks like from the shooter's point of view. An intro video about equipment such as Matt Burkett has on Vol 1 of his videos would be great to but include stuff about revo, production and 3-gun (3-gun may need to be a separate video though). I would even suggest a "so you shoot IPDA/NRA Action Pistol/PPC/etc what do you need to know to shoot IPSC". There are "portal in a box" solutions out there which a solid developer can implement relatively easily and they aren't as expensive as one might think. Funding can partially be taken care of by advertising revenue. Keep it in the shooting sports and related areas but we gotta do what we gotta do. Related areas such as sports drinks, energy bars, footwear, clothing, etc. can all be exploited. I hate banner ads as much as anyone else but they can be a necessary evil. I would hate to see banner ads for dating services and whatnot though. Not knowing what has and has not been adequately explored and exploited I can only offer suggestions. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 I brought this issue up before. USPSA needs some eye-candy on it's site. For such an exciting sport, the web site has all the panache and energy of an Elks Club meeting. This is not meant in any way to denigrate the herculean efforts that have been made to serve USPSA's customers via the web. (Virtual pats on the back for Rob) All the areas need to use a canned site provided to them by USPSA to organize their information so that there is some consistency. I also wish there was a "Who are we?" section with some nicely produced video shorts - with kind of the flavor that Springfield has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Hi guys, I think Kimel and Eric make a good point about "prospective members" being somewhat overwhelmed by the current USPSA home page. For those of us who know what we're looking for, it's not difficult to find it, especially since we've all visited the site many times before. I agree it's time for a fresh new look but, in order to avoid, as much as possible, giving Rob more white hairs than his dog Simon, consider this: 1. Have a contest for the design of a new USPSA "splash" page and a new underlying frames page, with Rob being the sole judge of the winning design. The winner gets a set of Ginsu steak knives, a salad spinner plus a sloppy kiss on the cheek or a bear hug from Rob. 2. The new "splash" page should be very simple, with two immediate "click me" choices - "Existing Member" and "Prospective Member". 3. If you chose the former, you're whisked away to exactly the same frames page we have now (no need to reinvent the wheel right away for existing members). However, if you're a newbie, then you get taken to a new frames page showing only the stuff applicable to newbies (e.g. Who? What? Where? How do I join? etc.). For example, newbies don't need things like Classification lookups and the like. 4. The new frames page would use exactly the same existing "target" URLS, but the presentation on the new frames page would be in a more "newbie-friendly" sequence. The objective of this exercise is to get members involved doing the grunge design work and Rob, while drinking a virtual Marguerita, just needs to give his nod of approval (or groans of disbelief). Am I nuts or what? OK, OK, don't answer that question .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Vince is not nuts, but. we don't need a constest since USPSA has just accepted delivery of a professionally revamped look & feel for the USPSA web site. I am currently integrating this into the site, and expect to have it released by February 1. No, it doesn't have everything but it will, in my opinion, be a major improvement. I like all of Vince's suggestions except making me the sole judge of new stuff - I'll be glad to comment on integration issues, however, what the graphic look & feel has needed (and is getting!) is a "fresh approach" from someone without a history developing the old look - that provides for more original thinking, as well as the perspective from someone who thinks "graphics presentation" rather than "underlying data management." This is one of the reasons I took a largely hands-off approach during the development of this new version of the site. Remember the old expression "don't dump cigarette ashes in my toilet and I won't pee in your pool?" - I told the graphics designer something similar - "Don't mess with my interactive upload and database driven features and I won't mess with your graphical presentation." But, due to financial constraints, USPSA has not hired this person to maintain the site on an ongoing basis, so that falls to me. If you are going to suggest hiring a web designer, please mention if you would spend down USPSA"s net worth, or if you are prepared to identify specific new sources of real revenue (not vague hopes of more in the future) to pay for the hire. I will caution everyone not to expect everything on "Day 1" - I need to strike a balance between releasing this quickly vs. converting all look & feel presentations across the entire site. At first, the emphasis is going to be on the areas where we "sell" (so don't expect the look of the "members only'" page to be a big priority item until the rest of the stuffis done). USPSA's goals seems to have mirrored what Kimel suggested - designing the page with an emphasis on new prospects and improving its capabilities as a sales tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 The USPSA website has a Nationals Sponsors link but doesn't have any direct links for anyone wanting to be a sponsor. Also a link for Area sponsors would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 What use is a lot of cool functionality for the existing membership if we have zilch to attract new members? Supporting the current membership. Sounds to me like your interest is the "behind the scenes" nuts and bolts stuff and what is missing is the graphical talent. So, that would be where I would suggest we go first. That is so freaking wrong. <rant> While I'm generally in agreement that the USPSA does not do enough to encourage and nurture new membership, I am totally opposed to the philosophy that support for existing members, whether it be services, web support, or even equipment divisions, take second place to spending for potential members. Rob has put an awful lot of work into web services that support the ability of clubs to actually run matches and the people who are doing the work are greatly appreciative of his work. If you're not doing it, you have no idea how much stats/classification work Rob has unloaded from clubs. This is the same bullshit we went through when Rob implemented the iconboard forums to replace the guestbook last year. After a handfull of pissers and moaners whined until they got their way, we're back to that near-useless inline thing. At some point all the bitching servers nothing but to discourage people from making the effort so feel free to shut up or put up. Those of you who feel he's not up to the task of doing what you want might consider stepping up to the plate and donating the time and or funds to implement something that suits you. I cannot believe somebody actually posts a 'suggestion' to define and ENFORCE standards on how volunteer work MUST be performed. I'm sure the websites you do for your club/section/area are up to those standards, right? Well, maybe you just run the monthly matches and do so to the standards of those who show up and shoot but don't actually get off their asses and help, right? </rant> This forum needs a 'Bite my shiny metal (br)ass' smiley. -Kevin Solito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hmmmm... Kbear, if you had read the entire thread you would have seen me state, not once, but twice, that I was not dissing Rob. You would also have read my thanks to him for his contributions to the sport. This thread started as a hate thread about the Area sites, especially the Area 1 site. Go look at the Area 1 site and tell me if you think this is attracting new shooters or serving the current members? I live in Area 1 and I am very concerned about its state. In fact, since I have been challenged about "putting up" let me state here, for the record, that I have put up...or at least tried to. I volunteered a week or more before the original thread started (this thread was split from the hate thread) to assist with the Area 1 site or to take over as Area 1 webmaster. The Area 1 director has not gotten back to me about this offer or the Area 1 site would be in redesign right now and at least the links that are busted and misdirected would be fixed. I agree with you that abandoning the Ikonboard project was a mistake and I voiced my opinion about that to my AD and to Rob when it happened. I find it odd that you compare what happened there to what is happening with this discussion regarding the websites though. The folks that have contributed to this thread have sought to do so in a constructive manner. This is the membership brainstorming about what they want to see. This is NOT a bunch of technophobes whining about Ikonboard and how hard it is to use and killing the project. You will note that several of the members in this thread are also wanting more for new shooter recruitment/development. Isn't giving the members what they are asking for serving the current members? I am thrilled that USPSA has a new look coming and I can't wait to see it. Feel free to rant but I ain't kissing your shiny metal anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Acutally, constructive suggestions do more to effect positive changes that do a large collection of attaboys. Don't worry about offending me - I can take the heat - especially when there is a degree of validity to the comments. I'll take the lack of complaints about classifier, classification, match listing, point series and match results uploading as a sign that I am at least doing something right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 [attaboy] Rob's the man! [/attaboy] be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I will caution everyone not to expect everything on "Day 1" Don't worry. We've got it all arranged. We won't burn you in effigy until noon on Day 2. Are there specific issues/projects that people could help out on to make your life easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Big Thanks to Rob for all the behind the scenes work for USPSA and another Thanks to Vince for the link to his website standards which gave me a couple of nice pointers for improving up my amateur website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I'll take the lack of complaints about classifier, classification, match listing, point series and match results uploading as a sign that I am at least doing something right Way right. You've made my stats job MUCH easier. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hi guys, Despite his grumpiness and the group spanking he gave us, Kevin Solito (kbear38s) is the designer and Web Monster of the Area 8 website, which is definitely a nice piece of work - well done, Kevin. However nobody is beating up on Rob - we all appreciate his dedication, hard work and incredible patience, especially with the Internet-impaired. Time for a group hug ...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Have a look at our new 2004 calendar feature on Georgia IPSC. Very comprehensive as it includes not only monthly matches within the section, but matches outside the state but in the general area (Area 6.) Our webmaster is Bill Noyes, who also runs the Area 6 page and is the GA Secretary/Treasurer as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegm Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Since there is a lot of talk about the Area 1 webpage, which I'm the webmaster of, I feel compelled to post a response. I, like most of the other webmasters, volunteer my time to keep the page updated and I take pride in the fact that whenever I get an email to update or correct something, that it is done immediately. Unfortunately, I am not a mind-reader, nor do I have the time to continually monitor every link to make sure the destination is updated. All I can do is hope that when a club has a link that changes, that they email me so I can get it changed. As for the "look and feel" of the page, I am always open to suggestions, I certainly don't pride myself in being creative I'm sorry KIMEL thinks the page is that awful - first I've heard about it. Anyhow...thanks for "listening" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Any one who takes on a "freebie" job is to be praised and worshiped.. BUT seldom are... I am sure that those who do criticize do it without personal malice. You are loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Uhhh Peg, sorry but I am not a lone ranger. This thread started as a "What I hate" thread and the Area 1 site was a star. Compare what is there for Area 1 and what is there for some of the other Area sites and it is pretty easy to see why the comparison is being made. This thread was spun off the "hate" thread because it consisted mostly of constructive criticism. And that is how it should be intpreted. Your volunteer efforts are appreciated and it shouldn't be taken personally. If this was a professionally managed site then there would be a problem but we all realize that volunteers have priorities and maintaining a website probably isn't, and shouldn't be, number 1. And thanks for fixing the busted/misdirected links on the Area 1 page. Yes, some of us do notice these things. Edited January 8, 2004 by kimel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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