USPSA & Area web sites

[ErikW]

Maybe USPSA can kick down some web space and expertise so the less-web-savvy area directors can have area sites. Think area1.uspsa.org, etc.

[George]

Yeah, the jmallard site is obtuse, but it is at the same address as usual and nothing is any different than before (strange site to navigate for sure)

http://www.jmallard.com/

and

http://www.jmallard.com/uspsa.htm

I have also noticed that a lot of links on the USPSA site need some fixin'

The cool thing is that USPSA acknowledges the BE forums and now has a link to Brian's main site. They also have started their own forum (with appropriate disclaimer). Check it out in the members area.

Regards,

[Paul B]

There are some very good area, section and club websites out there and I use them a lot. They are probably the best tool we have for getting new members into practical shooting and keeping current members. Unfortunately, a lot of clubs simply do not maintain their site and this can easily shortstop a new member and piss off a seasoned member who may just be traveling.

I've had clubs in Illinois and in Florida simply give the wrong information. Matches cancelled with no notice and phone numbers to people who are no longer affiliated with the club (this is true about the USPSA Club Finder page all the time). There is nothing worse than planning a vacation around match schedules that a club changes without notice on their website.

[Vince Pinto]

If you're a Webmaster and you can't religiously update your website within 24 hours (absolute maximum) of being informed of a change, you might as well close it down or stick up the dreaded "Under Construction" page.

People don't expect printed materials to be current, but websites are dynamic and that's their beauty and primary attraction.

Even with external links, you've got to be anal-retentive and check that each and every link is working at least once a week - it's an easy, automated process and I just cannot understand Web Apprentices who don't bother.

[George]

Even with external links, you've got to be anal-retentive and check that each and every link is working at least once a week - it's an easy, automated process and I just cannot understand Web Apprentices who don't bother

Yeah, that bugs me too! I manage several business sites. I find that the industry link pages receive a large portion of my companies site traffic. It's not just a courtesy thing, it can impact business if your visitors stop coming round because you are too lazy to keep the bait fresh.

I consider links a "Quid Pro Quo" thing. Give something that works to your visitors, and they might give you some work.

Regards,

[kimel]

When I was first getting into this sport I manged to make it in spite of the sites. Even the main USPSA website leaves something to be desired. But, when we work with volunteer labor this is what we end up with. And no, I am not knocking Rob. He does a great job considering he does it in his "free" time and is not compensated for the efforts. It is just a general tendency when dealing with a volunteer labor force.

24 hours from notice to change is certainly correct when dealing with pros. When dealing with the volunteer labor force I would give them 72 hours at least.

I happen to know that there has been at least one offer of assistance recently (before this thread ever got started) tendered to Area 1 to help maintain their site. But it hasn't borne fruit as of yet.

I would like to think that USPSA would turn some of their marketting funds toward hiring some professional assistance in getting top notch website online.

Some areas have gone the pro-web route and I don't see much reason why all of them shouldn't go the same way.

Maybe we have some pro-web devoloper folks that would trade match slots and lodging for web development? Then hand each of them a digital camera and they can gather material as they shoot the match if they so desire.

[kimel]

So, a quick tour through the Area sites this evening, one week after this thread started, leaves Areas 1 and 7 as the least attractive, at least to my eye. Area 7 has lots of stuff but, to me, it is very cluttered and the style is archaic. Great stuff for a 1994 website but not for a 2004 website.

Area 2 gets a big vote for "Most Improved".

Area 1 still shows it is "uspsa-area1.org" (which it isn't although this is registered to USPSA) and is sponsored by Shooters.com, which we all know went under months and months ago. The links to the upcoming matches on the calendar are all headed to the wrong place and a lot of the rest of the info is outdated.

We all know that Area 1 has been reconfigured and in a few days will be minus one state. One wonders how long it will still list Colorado as being in Area 1? Somehow I doubt that Area 2 will be dragging their feet in getting Colorado listed!

<RantMode>

We continually whine about how we have a hard time getting new blood into the sport and yet we "allow" low quality, even shoddy, pages to be our "voice" to the internet audience.

When the young blood we so deparately want hears about something new about the first thing they do is hop on the internet and see what they can see. When they see something exciting like the sites Area 5, 6 and 8 have they are likely to poke around and learn more. They stumble on a site with busted links, very little info and a lot of that very out of date and they get bored and move on.

Some might say that it is often better to have no web presence than to have a poor one. And those some might have something there.

And we can carry this right down to the club level. In my travels along the internet I have seen some fabulous club websites and I have seen some where the general impression that is given is that the club must be defunct. If a club website is still listing events for 2002 as "coming" and hasn't posted any match results since 2001 then I think we would all assume that the club was defunct. Meanwhile that club is wondering why they can't get new members other than by word of mouth.

Face it folks: the younger generation has grown up with high quality websites like amazon.com, espn.com, cnn.com, yahoo.com, and so on. This is what they expect as the norm. If we offer this low end drivel to them we can just forget about attracting them to our sport.

In my opinion, USPSA needs to take the following steps:

1) Create a minimum set of standards which all "official" websites will adhere to or not be linked to off the USPSA site. These standards would include (but not be limited to): a webmaster (or two) on record at HQ that can be contacted directly by HQ, current information, no broken links or misdirected links, quality graphics.

2) Create a template or set of templates which can be distributed and utilized by all affiliated clubs for their web pages. These can easily be created in Dreamweaver, Front Page and other packages. These templates should not be forced upon the clubs but often this sort of thing is just the spark that is needed to get a good club site off the ground.

3) Create and make available for download by affiliated groups quality graphic images. There is movement here with the Press area and the new photo gallery but it needs to be expanded. I am sick and tired of seeing the USPSA logos presented in crummy lo-rez scans or paintshop renderings. Give us good graphics to start with and this sort of thing just won't happen very much.

4) Move the current USPSA website toward a "web portal" type site. Amazon.com is an example of a portal type site. This is the type of site where you can login and be offered the information that you want right up front. You log in, it knows you belong to Area N and shows you the current events calendar and announcements for Area N. It knows you are interested in 3-Gun (because you told it this) so it shows you the current events calendar and announcements for 3-Gun. Your classification information is all right there on the front page. Maybe your membership is about to expire; it tells you this and gives you the opportunity right then and there to renew. A new club started up within x mile radius of you? There it is right there. And so on and so on. Yeah, all this info is available now but how many different pages do you have to thumb through to find all of it?

No, this won't be inexpensive. Progress is seldom inexpensive. USPSA has funds set aside for "development". This would, IMHO, be a good use for some of those funds. USPSA might as well realize that a pro web developer is in their future and get on with it.

This is the stuff that the the younger generation expects. We need to give it to them or we can just forget about them joining up in the numbers we want to see. This isn't a magic bullet either. But we need to do this if we expect to grow.

</RantMode> For now....

Edited December 29, 2003 by kimel

[SiG Lady]

Amen.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Since Kimel raised the issue of a set of website "Standards", feel free to use my Website Philosophy as a guide. It's something I developed over 6 years of being a Webmaster.

Note that the above page is not captured in my frames as usual, but I didn't want to bore you with my company stuff. However if you're having a quiet day, you can click "Home" from the top of the page to go to my "splash" page, and then enter my website from the same place my clients and suppliers do.

[Paul B]

Kimel's comments are right on target. Just out of curiousity I just went to the USPSA "Club Finder" webpage for Indiana. There are 11 entries. 6 of those entries actually take you to a web page that is updated regularly. (The clubs around the Louisville area have a great website that is always updated for 3 Indiana clubs). 3 of the websites are outdated by up to 3 years including the Indiana Section website. 2 clubs don't have websites linked (although I know they are on websites).

Does anyone maintain these links? No wonder we aren't drawing many new members.

I didn't call the telephone numbers, but from prior experience the results will probably mirror the websites

[kdj]

In my recent attempt to find IPSC (or should I say USPSA, I get confused!) info on the web, I found my way to the Area 2 web site and I found it very helpful.

I even joined twice since Mr. Mallard wanted to test my resolve but it all worked out

Having been in the same position, I realize how difficult it is for volunteer staff to keep a web site "modern" and up to date.

Given the importance of the web (at least to those of us in the distorted Silicon Valley demographic ), I would think that full time professionally managed web sites would be a worthwhile investment for the organization as a whole?

In the meantime, I express my gratitude to those who voluntarily manage info sites, forums and all the other good sources of info that are out there

Kevin

[shred]

As a long-time (one of the first club websites in the USA) part-time webmaster, I think there's a whole lot to be said for simple, mostly static club web pages that rarely need regular HTML updates-- what, how, when, where, what to bring, and who to contact, results and some pictures are what you need.

If somebody's not getting paid, it tends to drop in the priority stack, and many clubs don't have highly-web-literate people. Instead of a 'our next match is April 17th', try something like 'Our matches are every 3rd Tuesday'. Same info, no need to update every month. So long as the contact info is good, you should be fine. Special matches and extra info can be updated as needed.

Results are easily dropped into a directory tree without any HTML changes. Put a robots.txt down to stop web crawlers if your shooters are concerned about privacy.

A local-region e-mail list is also a good idea-- they're free and easy to set up on yahoogroups or wherever.

[kimel]

Wow! Now that is a great document Vince! I would love to see USPSA adopt something like this.

Bandwidth. More and more of the nation, especially that younger demographic we are after, are on higher bandwidth connections. If they don't have them at home they have them at work, school or the local public library.

Some optional high-bandwidth things can be a very good idea. Things like movies, instructional slide shows, etc. Those on high bandwidth can benefit from the additional material. Those on slow connections can opt to spend the next several hours downloading the info or they just ignore it. The dogma of "we have to design for the 56K modem user" is going out the window rapidly. You can even go the route that some sites are going with offering both hi-bandwidth and low-bandwidth versions. This does tend to double the amount of maintenance necessary so it isn't an optimal solution.

Another possibility is to provide contact info where an interested party that is on a low bandwidth connection can request the high-bandwidth materials on CD-ROM. It isn't difficult to burn this to a CD-ROM which can be mailed to the interested party. Then you already have their contact info and you can follow up with them in a week or two to personally invite them to your next new shooter's day or to the next match or whatever.

USPSA really should think about something like this. Then the contact info can be forwarded along to the section or clubs in that potential shooter's neck of the woods. Take some great match footage, do some nice high end production on it and make it available. At least make it available for members to download and burn their own CD-ROMs. This would be great stuff to have available at gun shows. Blank CDs cost next to nothing and high speed duplications services are out there with reallll reasonable rates.

Shred is right in that a good, quality static page might be better than an outdated page. Just be sure that contact info, especially email addresses which seem to change rapidly, stays current.

I sure hope someone from USPSA HQ is reading this thread and taking notes.

[George]

USPSA emulating a successful business by doing something pro-active and forward thinking without being forced to Oh My Gawd!

Maybe if they were located in a high tech area like Silicon Valley, or a major urban center and with a good resource pool, we might see a more progressive attitude towards utilizing high tech marketing/promotional tools & techniques along with a more rigorous "taking care of business" attitude. I think the rural location of the HQ office has a lot to do with the low key down home approach USPSA has always exhibited in it's business practices. It's the "Sedro Wooley Way"

The USPSA store is a pretty lame example of e-commerce. If I had anything to do with it, you would be able to buy a lot of real usefull shooting stuff there. I only mention this because I just finished browsing the entire store after purchasing a copy of EZ-Winscore. I was hoping the other offerings might entice me to make some sort of impulse purchase, but I couldn't anything else worth spending any dinero on.

On the defense side, I do understand TANSTAAFL. It would take at least a couple of full time staff members with good high end web design and modern marketing skills to properly do what is being discussed here. I also realize that the annual salary level of this type of talent is probably two to three times what the USPSA staff are getting paid at best. I don't know for sure what the office staff salaries are, but I can make a very good guess, and I am darned sure that it isn't anywhere near enough to attract the talent level needed to do this type of thing right.

If USPSA had to exist by the revenue they generated from events and commerce only, and did not have the dues and classifier fee revenue stream coming in they would be in big, big trouble. Basically the organization is run at close to a break even level and generating more profit is not as important as doing more things for the shooters, which can only be accomplished by increasing revenue, or spending less on the things you do. Ya gotta make more to actually do more, otherwise the more you do the crappier it all gets. If USPSA was run less like a non-profit charity foundation and some focus was put on nurturing revenue growth (like most successfull business do), we might see some amazing things happening.

I get a funny feeling that Mr. Voigt may have gained some experience in dealing with the Sedro Wooley way. I sure am glad that Mr. Stamford is still not at the helm, and I am very glad that Michael is steering the ship. I just think that the ship needs a re-fit, and the crew needs an injection of gumption (promotions, raises, and commissions/incentives do this in the real world).

I do technical support for large corporation marketing and sales events for a living, and if there is one thing I am familiar with when it comes to marketing, advertising and competitive business practices, it's what the big dawgs do, and how they go about it. This is gonna be a real uphill pull if it's gonna get fixed properly.

--

Regards,

[George]

BTW, when I checked out from the USPSA store with my purchase earlier, I noticed that my browsers autofill function was not allowed to do it's job due to a poorly laid out form page. No order confirmation page, no receipt page. It's been 3 hours so far, and no confirmation e-mail as I would expect from any other e-commerce place I use, maybe it's done manually and I will get one tomorrow

Anytime you do not do give your customer an equal, or better experience than someone else does, you will sooner, or later lose that customer.

There are three things that a consumer cares about Price, Price, and Price. If they can find it somewhere else at the same price with less hassle, they are gone. If they can find it cheaper somewhere else, they are gone. Either way, they are paying less one way or another.

--

Regards,

[kimel]

Sedro is close enough to Seattle that they should be able to locate the talent easily. We can do it out here in the sticks of Eastern Washington so they can certainly do it over near Seattle. Affording the talent is a whole other matter. Last time we advertised for a web programmer (about a year ago, paying mid-$40K range) we got over 250 resumes and the majority of those came out of the Seattle area.

One good web programmer directed by a good marketting person backed up by some graphics arts talent would be able to work wonders. The marketting and graphics arts talent could even be contract talent but the web programmer just about has to be a full time, dedicated employee.

USPSA obviously sells ad space on their website now. If they don't and are giving those banner ads away for match sponsorhips then they are crazy. They need to be sold at going market rate (whatever that might be) and they need to be actively searching for more of them. I hate banner ads as much as the next guy but I also realize that these are often a necessary evil.

[George]

Ideas, and by the bootstraps implementation of same are the cornerstone of capitalism. I see a number of possibilities here. Inventing new revenue streams, and and expanding existing ones are what it's all about.

Kimel is right, with a couple of dynamic and talented individuals rolling the entrepreneurial ball here, a lot could be done. For starters the magazine direction is a very good possibility. American Handgunner no longer speaks for our sport in any palatable manner. Hire Ichiro away, upgrade the editorial content and rag design a tad, start charging what it's really worth for ad space, sell subscriptions worldwide and put it on store shelves where it will sell out every month, distribute it electronically (I get MacWorld and Scientific American that way), and the next thing you know, cash machine instead of operating expense.

Inertia kills more good ideas than poor implementation does (I am not sure if they are actually the same thing). A good idea can usually take a little mishandling in implementation, but fail to act on a good idea and it is gone. I remember a recent thread (many months back) where the idea of archive issues of FS being made available as PDF files for download to members was brought up then nothing after the initial discussion. I heard through the grapevine two months ago that they were gonna work on it. Still nothing. In a well running business machine the time from discussion to implementation is typically in weeks, and even days when cash is on the line. My clients demand that I first jump, then ask how high while I am in the air, and where do they want me to land while I am on the way down. If I do it well, I keep my clients and they give me lots of money.

--

Regards,

[kimel]

Wow...more great stuff!

Ya know...this started out as a hate thread but it has grown into wayyyyyy more than that. I wonder if the moderators should move/split this thread into some other category.

Wayyyy too much constructive thinking going on here to be in the hate forum.

[D.Hayden]

I nominate Kevin and George to be USPSA web masters (at least for Area 1 & 2). - at least to help out Jerry and Peg

[shred]

Bandwidth. More and more of the nation, especially that younger demographic we are after, are on higher bandwidth connections. If they don't have them at home they have them at work, school or the local public library.

Some optional high-bandwidth things can be a very good idea. Things like movies, instructional slide shows, etc. Those on high bandwidth can benefit from the additional material. Those on slow connections can opt to spend the next several hours downloading the info or they just ignore it. The dogma of "we have to design for the 56K modem user" is going out the window rapidly.

Weell.. I don't think it's time to load up on graphics and assume everybody's got broadband yet.. Optional is good.

Right now I'm getting to BE.com on really slow link (35K baud or so equivalent). Wha?? I'm using a cell-modem GPRS connection, so with my laptop or PDA, I can upload match results and surf while (somebody else is) driving home, or waiting for big match results or whatever wherever I can see a cell tower.

As cell-phones get more features, and more kids get phones, I'd guess we'll be seeing more web hits from tiny-screened devices to boot.

[kdj]

PMAs cell-phones get more features, and more kids get phones, I'd guess we'll be seeing more web hits from tiny-screened devices to boot.

Hands up all those who've browsed the be forums (and the area 2 webs site for that matter) on a cell connected palm ... <puts hand in air>

Kevin

[D.Hayden]

Hands up all those who've browsed the be forums ... on a cell connected palm ...

At a conference in Los Angeles, I used my WinCE, 802.11b connected - had to scroll alot, but it worked fine.

[kimel]

I do browse the forums quite regularly with my Palm Tungsten C (802.11b). Not a bad experience. Not like having the big screen but not bad. Tons better than on my Palm III with modem and cruddy browser-like thing. Ick!

Knowing what is wrong and having ideas for fixing it are radicially different than having the technical ability to implement the ideas. I do some volunteer web work for a non-profit but I am pretty much limited to straight HTML via Dreamweaver.

In my professional life I spend a good deal of time working on committees that are tasked with much the same issues we are wrestling with here. It is from that experience that I draw much of my insight as to what I have stated previously.

To implement what has been mentioned by George and myself will require professional staff or an enormous army of dedicated and talented volunteer web developers.

It all boils down to making decisions. Given a limited quantity of resources, how do "we" best apply those resources. Having a direction and a mission statement is a good place to start.

Hopefully someone at USPSA HQ is paying attention and taking notes and some eventual good will come of this discussion.

Meanwhile...keep those ideas flowing.

[George]

Again, I'm with kimel here. I did my time as a club volunteer long ago and wound up getting out of serious competition shooting for about 8 years primarily due to burnout on the work involved in trying to get things done at any level of quality.

Unless it is a salaried position, it's always going to be a revolving door situation for the folks who do the work so the rest can shoot. Few are able to stick with the bigtime volunteer duties for the long haul and still continue to enjoy the game.

Myself, I find that earning money has to be my number 1 priority or Georgie doesn't get to play the IPSIK game for reasons other than lack of time or energy. I love to get involved in things, but cleaning the Aegean Stables is a bit much to ask of anyone without a commensurate salary

Right now I am on a quest for an A card, followed by the next logical step. I am not going to let other things get in the way of my goals this time. 2004 will be "the year of shooting seriously" for me.

--

Regards,

[D.Hayden]

Guys.. sorry I wasn't trying to put you on the spot - more like you're the types that USPSA should be looking for..

Dave