2010 Area 7

[dirty whiteboy]

The couple of times I traveled to NY state to shoot,I would disassemble the firearms, slide in one part of the car, barrel in another , etc. Reason? if you are pulled over by a cop like you were, by definition, you have no firearms in your possession. Just parts. And a lawyer's job maybe made easier on getting you out of the mess.

Edited August 8, 2010 by dirty whiteboy

[srf]

Stage 6 (Hi/Low) was removed after the Range Master and Match Director conferred. The stage was not shot according to the design intent on Thursday. This was determined to be a forbidden action, and it was not possible to have the competitors who shot it prior to the declaration of the forbidden action reshoot. The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

I spoke to Amidon Thursday about this stage. He told me that a forbidden action wasn't applied in a timely fashion Thursday so the stage would be shot as specified in the COF. Everybody that shot the stage Friday and Saturday was scored. I run matches and I know things go wrong, but it's pretty disappointing to have a stage thrown out when shot as specified in the COF at a match of this stature (yeah - I shot it well and throwing it out hurt me pretty good in the standings).

Could've been worse I guess - at least I didn't get stopped by the NYSP on the way home.

[driver8M3]

The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

if no squads were forbidden from shooting around the side, wouldn't it have also been fair to leave the stage in?

[Northern Xtreme]

I wonder if it would be possible for the USPSA to inform the State police in the State and surrounding states that we are having an Area championship match and that competitors will be travelling to it and ask them to notify their officers in their daily briefings of our legal right to do so.

That might prevent such a problem and educate the entire force to our legal rights at the same time.

I am sure we must have several law enforcement officers that shot the match and might know the best way to go about doing it.

[Alfie]

I wonder if it would be possible for the USPSA to inform the State police in the State and surrounding states that we are having an Area championship match and that competitors will be travelling to it and ask them to notify their officers in their daily briefings of our legal right to do so.

That might prevent such a problem and educate the entire force to our legal rights at the same time.

I am sure we must have several law enforcement officers that shot the match and might know the best way to go about doing it.

NY is a pretty big State and it would be pretty difficult to inform all the officers in the State system of the shoot. Besides then it would give them all a reason to pull over lots of cars.

GLShooter, I thought about this whole thing and I'm thinking the officer was trying to scare you b/c if he never checked the trunk then how does he know you did anything wrong. I'm also curious how he identified your CT license at a quick glance from it's corner in your wallet? Fortunately you were let on your way without any problems.

[AWLAZS]

Stage 6 (Hi/Low) was removed after the Range Master and Match Director conferred. The stage was not shot according to the design intent on Thursday. This was determined to be a forbidden action, and it was not possible to have the competitors who shot it prior to the declaration of the forbidden action reshoot. The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

I spoke to Amidon Thursday about this stage. He told me that a forbidden action wasn't applied in a timely fashion Thursday so the stage would be shot as specified in the COF. Everybody that shot the stage Friday and Saturday was scored. I run matches and I know things go wrong, but it's pretty disappointing to have a stage thrown out when shot as specified in the COF at a match of this stature (yeah - I shot it well and throwing it out hurt me pretty good in the standings).

Could've been worse I guess - at least I didn't get stopped by the NYSP on the way home.

Every one had the same opportunity. Everyone was read the same WSB some people shot it differently. All shooters had the same opportunity they just did not see it. I don't see why it was tossed

[Glshooter]

GLShooter, I thought about this whole thing and I'm thinking the officer was trying to scare you b/c if he never checked the trunk then how does he know you did anything wrong. I'm also curious how he identified your CT license at a quick glance from it's corner in your wallet? Fortunately you were let on your way without any problems.

Well Alfie, that is a good question. I too wondered how he knew what it was. He told us that he was a former resident of CT and knew what a CT pistol permit looked like. As far as doing something wrong, after seeing the permit, he asked if I had any firearms in the car. I answered truthfully and told him there was. That alone was enough for him to consider me a felon.

[revomodel10]

Stage 6 (Hi/Low) was removed after the Range Master and Match Director conferred. The stage was not shot according to the design intent on Thursday. This was determined to be a forbidden action, and it was not possible to have the competitors who shot it prior to the declaration of the forbidden action reshoot. The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

I spoke to Amidon Thursday about this stage. He told me that a forbidden action wasn't applied in a timely fashion Thursday so the stage would be shot as specified in the COF. Everybody that shot the stage Friday and Saturday was scored. I run matches and I know things go wrong, but it's pretty disappointing to have a stage thrown out when shot as specified in the COF at a match of this stature (yeah - I shot it well and throwing it out hurt me pretty good in the standings).

Could've been worse I guess - at least I didn't get stopped by the NYSP on the way home.

Every one had the same opportunity. Everyone was read the same WSB some people shot it differently. All shooters had the same opportunity they just did not see it. I don't see why it was tossed

It probably was tossed because someone challenged the proceedural error penalties given for fingers around the wall, Those were not in the WSB,(as was not forbiding shooting around the wall)

In any event, they should make the reason public.

Overall Pathfinder did a great job and I thank them all for their efforts,

PS

I can't wait for the "buns" of Area 7 pictures to come out! (taken by the lovely ladies at Shock & Awe)

[Mo Hepworth]

Stage 6 (Hi/Low) was removed after the Range Master and Match Director conferred. The stage was not shot according to the design intent on Thursday. This was determined to be a forbidden action, and it was not possible to have the competitors who shot it prior to the declaration of the forbidden action reshoot. The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

I spoke to Amidon Thursday about this stage. He told me that a forbidden action wasn't applied in a timely fashion Thursday so the stage would be shot as specified in the COF. Everybody that shot the stage Friday and Saturday was scored. I run matches and I know things go wrong, but it's pretty disappointing to have a stage thrown out when shot as specified in the COF at a match of this stature (yeah - I shot it well and throwing it out hurt me pretty good in the standings).

Could've been worse I guess - at least I didn't get stopped by the NYSP on the way home.

Every one had the same opportunity. Everyone was read the same WSB some people shot it differently. All shooters had the same opportunity they just did not see it. I don't see why it was tossed

ARGH>>>>>I just saw this,...WTF! Of course it was a stage I had done well in at about 3.18 with all A's, 1D.I was in 2nd as of last night on that stage.

When,..exactly was the stage tossed? Why wait until the end of the match? I have to say I really enjoyed the stages and thanks to the hard work of those who did all the work,...but I would only ask this question as it just does not seem right to toss it after everyone has shot it and had an opportunity to read the stage instructions.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Mo Hepworth

[kitestir]

I think if it were me that had been stopped and now I am home, I would make a stink about it. I would contact the law enforcement office that the officer belongs to and let them know what had happened and provide the proper statutes. I would ask for clarification of what had been done wrong and if it were the officers mistake ask for an apology, also maybe in the future someone going through the same area will not have the same problem!

[Dan Burwell]

ARGH>>>>>I just saw this,...WTF! Of course it was a stage I had done well in at about 3.18 with all A's, 1D.I was in 2nd as of last night on that stage.

When,..exactly was the stage tossed? Why wait until the end of the match? I have to say I really enjoyed the stages and thanks to the hard work of those who did all the work,...but I would only ask this question as it just does not seem right to toss it after everyone has shot it and had an opportunity to read the stage instructions.

I am with you Mo, I was the one ahead of you! it dropped me a place in the match

[Steve_P]

I dropped a few spots overall in open as well. Oh well.

[Voodoo]

Great match. I had a great squad (37) and met some great people. It was my first Area match and despite hoping for a top 20 I did wrangle out a top 30 and Top "C". Thanks to everyone that worked the match and to all the great shooters in attendance.

[srf]

Stage 6 (Hi/Low) was removed after the Range Master and Match Director conferred. The stage was not shot according to the design intent on Thursday. This was determined to be a forbidden action, and it was not possible to have the competitors who shot it prior to the declaration of the forbidden action reshoot. The only fair course of action provided for by the rules is stage removal.

I spoke to Amidon Thursday about this stage. He told me that a forbidden action wasn't applied in a timely fashion Thursday so the stage would be shot as specified in the COF. Everybody that shot the stage Friday and Saturday was scored. I run matches and I know things go wrong, but it's pretty disappointing to have a stage thrown out when shot as specified in the COF at a match of this stature (yeah - I shot it well and throwing it out hurt me pretty good in the standings).

Could've been worse I guess - at least I didn't get stopped by the NYSP on the way home.

Every one had the same opportunity. Everyone was read the same WSB some people shot it differently. All shooters had the same opportunity they just did not see it. I don't see why it was tossed

ARGH>>>>>I just saw this,...WTF! Of course it was a stage I had done well in at about 3.18 with all A's, 1D.I was in 2nd as of last night on that stage.

When,..exactly was the stage tossed? Why wait until the end of the match? I have to say I really enjoyed the stages and thanks to the hard work of those who did all the work,...but I would only ask this question as it just does not seem right to toss it after everyone has shot it and had an opportunity to read the stage instructions.

I just wanted to add that the guys at Pathfinder did a great job with the match. Although I'm not happy they dropped stage 6, overall the match was good. I shot the stage in 2.68 seconds down 2 of 3 points (2nd place as of Saturday night). 14th to 19th in Open was seperated by 7 match points. I was 19th. I can't help but feel I lost a couple of positions by pulling the stage.

[Alfie]

I agree, the people who put together the match and worked the stages did an awesome job. We rolled right through with out a hitch......oh, well there was one; the shooter in front of me broke the back of the chair off!!!! Yes, the chair on "Table for 5". So after half an hour of some "Engineering" I got to be the first shooter to try it out. The repairs worked fine but I didn't.

I for one am darn glad that Stage 6 was tossed. I shot a clean 8-A stage in something like 38 seconds....

I'm waiting for the Ass's of A-7 to be posted tonight too.

[Alfie]

Question: how do the 2011 Nationals Slots work? I seem to recall that the Class winners in a Division of 50 or more shooters all get a slot as long as they are from the Area that the match is being held in. Is that correct? If thats the case and the Class winner is from somewhere else, say Canada perhaps, does the #2 position get the slot or is the slot just thrown out?

[Voodoo]

Question: how do the 2011 Nationals Slots work? I seem to recall that the Class winners in a Division of 50 or more shooters all get a slot as long as they are from the Area that the match is being held in. Is that correct? If thats the case and the Class winner is from somewhere else, say Canada perhaps, does the #2 position get the slot or is the slot just thrown out?

That would be great. I would love a slot to Nat's next year. Just checked your scores. Nice shooting Alfie.

[bill d]

I don't want anyone to be hurt in a overall position by a stage being tossed but stage 6 was a lame stage for a "AREA" match, shooting it the way everyone shot it. Pretty much it was just draw and shoot 4 targets from around a barricade with the targets being 5 feet away. Again, I don't wish anyone a drop in position, but the stage should have read that the targets must be engaged through a port. And no, this wasn't a "gaming" stage that someone had to really think about to come up with this way of shooting it. It was obvious that it should be shot this way because it never said that the targets must be engaged through a port.

The prop makers did a lot of wood set up for this. And to have it shot the way everyone shot it, they should have just set up 4 targets- 5 feet in front of you and just said shoot it strong hand.

Again, no disrespect to the stages designers, workers, or the RO's. Just a little wording in the stage description would have made you shoot it they way it was intended which would have made it a little challenging.

[Mo Hepworth]

OR,...if the fault lines were about 1 foot shorter on either side it would have not been possible to shoot around. Easy-peasy,..it would have forced the shooters to shoot thru the ports. As above, with all due respect to the workers and stage designers.

I really liked the field stages, slightly different ways to shoot them,....Stage 2 had some gaming near the end.

I guess I would have been 2nd overall for Law Enforcement in production if that had been recorded.

[Rob Boudrie]

Maybe, the state and/or area coordinator could/should find all relevant documentation and AFTER running it by a lawyer or appropriate

The relevant information WAS provided.

(1) A match confirmation letter stating the match was NRA recognized (and I had NRA paperwork on file if anyone wanted a copy). This is the exact letter the law states should be carried by the competitor.

(2) A copy of NY penal code 265.20(a)(13)was provided. Suggestion: Never ask an officer to look at your copy of the law; ask them to look this section up in the book they carry in their car.

(3) When I first ran a match in NY, I phoned the NYSP Pistol Licensing Division, and they verbally confirmed the existence of the exemption to me. I already knew of the exemption before I phoned, however, I wanted to make sure they had heard about it - and the indication I received from that conversation was that they had. When the next big NY match comes around, I may send them a letter asking the same question.

(4) I have personally been the passenger in a car stopped on the way to a NY match twice (once by the NYSP near Cortland; once by the Fulton NY PD). In each case the driver said "pistol match" when asked where he was headed, and neither case resulted in any adverse action. In both cases, the officers acted as if they understood the exemption. I know two is not an exhaustive sample; that's just my experience.

(5) Although the match provided some information, it was made clear that the match staff is not in the position to provide legal advice, and copies of state information we provide should not be construed as such.

If I run it by a lawyer or two, I will be told the same thing - NO attorney can make any sort of warranty or representation that police officers will be properly trained in the law, but the attorney will be glad to explain the law.

When I took my liscence out of my wallet, he saw the corner of my CT pistol permit and asked if that is what it was. I replied yes and he asked if there were guns in the car. I told him there were and they were unloaded and locked in the trunk and I was coming from a sanctioned shooting competition and had paperwork to verify this.

I do not intend this disrespectfully or to lay blame on the original poster, however, I have an observation here.

I teach the MA handgun licensing course as well as the basic USPSA course (which is also a MA certified licensing course). One of the things I *ALWAYS* mention when presenting the overview of MA and Federal law is that one'e carry permit should NEVER be placed in the wallet such that anyone can see it unless you are making a deliberate choice to show it to them. It announces "gun" to persons near you when paying for anything at a store; presents the "gun" issue when interacting with police officers; etc. I cannot help but wonder if this incident would have been anything but a routine citation if the driver did not choose to broadcast "gun" by keeping his home state carry permit in a high visibility location. I call it the "getting lost in a crowd of one" approach.

you have no firearms in your possession. Just parts.

This is a legally ignorant statement. Under the federal, and most state definitions, the frame alone is legally a "gun". A stripped frame is not legally a gun under Massachusetts law when not possessed with other parts (yes, really), but even that is most likely not the case when possessed with other parts, and that particular MA definition of "firearm" is the exception to the more common definition.

[Glshooter]

When I took my liscence out of my wallet, he saw the corner of my CT pistol permit and asked if that is what it was. I replied yes and he asked if there were guns in the car. I told him there were and they were unloaded and locked in the trunk and I was coming from a sanctioned shooting competition and had paperwork to verify this.

I do not intend this disrespectfully or to lay blame on the original poster, however, I have an observation here.

I teach the MA handgun licensing course as well as the basic USPSA course (which is also a MA certified licensing course). One of the things I *ALWAYS* mention when presenting the overview of MA and Federal law is that one'e carry permit should NEVER be placed in the wallet such that anyone can see it unless you are making a deliberate choice to show it to them. It announces "gun" to persons near you when paying for anything at a store; presents the "gun" issue when interacting with police officers; etc. I cannot help but wonder if this incident would have been anything but a routine citation if the driver did not choose to broadcast "gun" by keeping his home state carry permit in a high visibility location. I call it the "getting lost in a crowd of one" approach.

My permit is not on public display and would never be seen when paying for something in a store. It is tucked behind other things. It just happened to slide out just enough when I removed my license for him to see maybe 10-20% of the end of it. He later explained that he is a former CT resident, had a CT pistol permit and knows what it looks like. Just dumb luck and any other cop probably wouldn't have known what it was.

[Rob Boudrie]

My permit is not on public display and would never be seen when paying for something in a store. It is tucked behind other things. It just happened to slide out just enough when I removed my license for him to see maybe 10-20% of the end of it. He later explained that he is a former CT resident, had a CT pistol permit and knows what it looks like. Just dumb luck and any other cop probably wouldn't have known what it was.

It was obviously less than fully concealed or it would not have been noticed . The CT permit is indeed distinctive, and my guess is many CT permit holders who saw that 10%-20% would recognize it. What I find amazing is the number of people who put their LTC in the window portion of their wallet (not your situation) - like they want to look at it ever time they have their wallet out. I keep mine in a completely different section of my wallet from my license and credit cards.

Consider this a real world example of the benefit of perfecting the art of not beeing seen (Monty Python reference)

This encounter was not anything you did wrong, but incomplete training of the officer in question.

[Rob Boudrie]

When,..exactly was the stage tossed? Why wait until the end of the match? I have to say I really enjoyed the stages and thanks to the hard work of those who did all the work,...but I would only ask this question as it just does not seem right to toss it after everyone has shot it and had an opportunity to read the stage instructions.

The decision was made exclusively by the Match Director Ted Firnstein and Rangemaster John Amidon. I can say with absolute certainty that no "what if" scenarios were run regarding the results prior to display, as I had the scoring laptop in my possession continuously from the time the results were first calculated to the time I was told to pull the stage from the results.

My personal thought (not as a match official, as my capacity at this event was stats only) is that the stage was fundamentally unfair to those who shot it early who understood the obvious intent of the course designer before competitors knew ROs would not call anyone on using the "trick" and therefore shot the stage as intended. Once the match was well underway, almost everyone was shooting it around the wall.

[AWLAZS]

They could of though. It was the same walk through. I have seen lots of stages where someone half way through the match finds a better way to shoot a stage and everyone follows it. They stay in the match

[MFP4073]

Thanks to everybody at Pathfinder for a great match this year. I had an awesome time, thoroughly enjoyed the stages, and had a lot of fun with my squad. I especially enjoyed watching the shooting ability and gun handling skills of a 14 YO young man who was on our squad. He really had it together - especially for a kid his age.

I was generally happy with my performance in Limited overall but I could have done better in a few areas. I managed to earn a mike and a no-shoot on "Get R Done" due to fundamental mistakes but I was able to pull it back together for an otherwise clean match. The delay on the forward falling steel in the next stage played games with me just a bit.

I know many (myself included) shot "High and Low" in a manner that was not intended by the stage designer. However, it was shot within the rules. I was disappointed to see it thrown out as I shot all A's with a reasonable time. As others have said, a more complete stage briefing, strategically placed no-shoots, or different fault lines would have ensured it was shot as intended. Although a quick stage - I still had fun with it blasting away.

Thanks again for all your work and a great match!

Matt...

Edited August 9, 2010 by Whitey627