teros135

There's a big difference here that the "helper beep" crowd seems to be ignoring. Red dots, comps, heavy guns, etc. are in the rules and part of the sport. They've been discussed, considered, and adopted. Self-timers with "reminder" beeps have not. Maybe they'll become part of the sport in time, but to claim that they're the same as basic shooting equipment is disingenuous.

Shooter's friend isn't giving assistance in shooting the COF (8.6.1, 8.6.2), and if the RO gives permission it isn't "unauthorized assistance". He isn't doing any more than a camera-toting friend is, who most ROs seem happy to accommodate (8.7.3). I'm fine with using a Shotmaxx (quietly) to record your shot times. (You can set the Shotmaxx to NOT beep when you're using it to record shot times.) The timer's "beep" is a Range Command, the "start signal" (8.3.4) on all COFs and also a "stop" signal on a Fixed Time COF, issued by the RO (8.3.4). Any shots after the stop signal incur a penalty (9.4.6.1) On a par time stage, the second beep signals the END of the shooting period . I'd love to see the RO yell "stop" when the shooter's timer goes off ("was that your timer, or mine? Never mind - stop."). No reshoot there - the shooter interfered with his own stage.

So, peterthefish, are you advocating for shooters to use their own timer (which beeps) and simply notify the RO that they're going to do so? If so, then somebody who might want to have a second timer on the run (say to verify what the RO has or to have a record of their splits and transitions) could simply notify the RO that they're going to have a friend stand behind the RO with a second timer, set on "instant", and hit their buzzer when the RO's timer beeps, then follow the shooter around and record his stage (this could be done at a respectful distance from the RO with a sensitive timer). The RO is advised and everyone is happy. The book doesn't say they can't. (Can't imagine, though...) Is this where "it doesn't say we can't" can go?

Is this an actual practice anywhere? Has anyone actually seen a shooter using a timer that beeps during his own COF? I hear what Sarge is saying. If there's an extraneous beep, regardless of it's sound, it's a distraction to both shooter and RO. The RO is the one who gets to issue the beep ("start signal"). The rule book doesn't say anywhere that the shooter gets to issue a beep (and please don't fall back to the straw man argument that "it doesn't say s/he can't", so it must be okay - this is a new use of technology that someone just thought of). I've seen "beep interference" a couple of times, although not with the Shotmaxx. At a LII somebody turned on a camera during "stand by" and when it beeped the shooter and RO both visibly reacted. The camera beep wasn't the same as the timer and was softer, but a beep is what both shooter and RO were waiting for. Yes, the RO is controlling when his timer beeps, but it's his own beep he's waiting for. Also, an RO stopped a shooter and did a reshoot because the timer was set with a par time and beeped a second time several seconds into the run. The shooter had noticed it and was distracted, as was the RO. The safety and fairness principles were in play.

I looked up the DAA Shotmaxx+. It's a wrist watch type device that will silently (in "spy mode") record your shots, which gives you a personal record of your run that you can review later. In this mode it doesn't emit a beep, so it wouldn't interfere with the official shot timer. I guess that wouldn't provide an advantage during the run (no "reminders"), but you have to remember to turn it on, like a hat cam, so it's another thing to think about.

Guess having a crutch could be helpful...to some...

The rule book does not say the shooter is allowed to carry or utilize a timer. It's not listed anywhere under Equipment. And, how would you use a timer without interfering with the duties of the RO, whose job it *is* to use a timer? Only the RO can issue the Start command ("beep").

I'm also one who likes to look at "Combined" results in addition to my own Division. It helps me see where I am, on any given day, compared to good shooters to are in other divisions. This is a relative comparison, I know, but I can see where I'm at compared to them. For instance, vs an Open GM at one club I used to shoot Production at about 45% of his scores; when I got higher (consistently) I knew I was doing well. Same thing for friends in Limited when I'm shooting Prod, or vice versa. The Combined results cut across the divisions and give us a useful metric for our own performance. Yep, USPSA doesn't do Combined results. Practiscore does, so does combinedresults.info, although I think the latter gets their data from the USPSA stats (so it's useful when the MD doesn't use the iPad version of Practi or doesn't report the Combined scores).

A whole bunch of professional athletes and olympians use the "Crutch"... "End of story." I like that. It sounds definitive.

Indeed it does. About 14 oz more, in my 2011. That's a perceptible difference. Without it in the gun tends to just jump up into the air and I rise above the intended target.

The little "ritual" things help me with both calming and getting focused. Doing familiar things is good for that. The draw stroke makes sure my hand knows where the gun is, which also lets me know how much my mental focus is off or on. Taking a sight picture lets me know whether I have my shooting glasses on (it's possible to shoot a stage with fuzzy sights, but not nearly as much fun), and doing a few transitions lets me know how tuned in I am and whether I can shoot faster or slower on this run (I've found it to be a pretty good predictor of Ds and Ms). Loading the gun and then doing a press check lets me know (1) there's a round in the chamber (ask me how I know to do this) and (2) the mag is seated and the next round will probably feed smoothly (esp the Limited gun with 20 rds). Taking a deep breath and relaxing muscles helps me to be relaxed at the start. This doesn't take long and doesn't seem to annoy anybody, and here in the States it's a regular part of the "get ready" routine for many shooters.

Well, it's the rule, and if we can't remember it maybe we should question our ability to do this sport. This is about 1911s, not Glocks, yes? The thumb safety may be the only safety, and forgetting to set it could be a problem. What is it they say, don't practice things you don't want to do in live fire?

If it said "facing downrange, heels on marks", then the RO would have a better case. Personally, I don't think that specifying a heels/toes on marks position invalidates 8.2.2, but I'll defer to those with more high-level match experience.

I heard a rumor that this is going to be an all-long-course match. 10 field courses, all around 30 rds (give or take). If you've been to Battle in the Bluegrass or any of BGSL's monthly matches you know what that means. Awesome!

I am not really sure which quoted part in particular really amazed you... Personally I truly believe it will be very beneficial and also an eye opening experience for any USPSA executive to learn and to know how to actually post scores. At very least that would help a lot to understand what clubs and the match directors have to deal with and we also could get an invaluable feedback from someone with that much experience. I appreciate the help you gave me via emails a few weeks ago. I have seen you on these and benos forums and never made the connection who you were until now. lol Small world. I might add that Jake is indeed climbing the uspsa corporate ladder but he has been a match director and uploading scores for as long as I have been in the game. He knows very well what is involved here. Amen. Let's stop picking at Jake (who runs some very good matches, including L2s, and certainly knows what he's doing) and USPSA (which contains some pretty hard-working people, even if they're not all perfect) and suggest something *positive* we can all do to help the sport, okay? Looking at the OP's question, the first thing we can do is to encourage the clubs where we shoot to turn in the scores and classifiers. No matter what format they're using, if they're not turned in we're not going to see them.

No, I'm not talking about having trouble deciding what to do, just pointing out that if there's a mess of pasters in front of a big hole in the cardboard it's going to be complicated to figure out which grease ring/segment you have if you're pushing everything in from the back, because now you've really distorted the flight path of the (hypothetical) second bullet. If it's a big torn hole you're probably going to have trouble seeing a second distinct grease ring or segment anyway. In the case of the Big Tear it's probably time to replace the target (actually, that would have been before this current shootor) and do a reshoot for, essentially, REF (used-up target).

Also, if you're manipulating the back of the mess of a shot-up target, how can you tell whose grease marks you're looking at once you press the mess to the front?

Thanks!

Stop encouraging him - we'll end up with a sliding/spinning/rotating Polish plate rack/Texas star/multiple no-shoot shot through a low port while sliding on our knees!

Any info on hotels for the match?

Yep. And same diabolical Sarge stage (which was wonderful this year, again. How you gonna top yourself, Sarge?)

But we do have to transition when we change rigs and Divisions. The draws, reloads, transitions, etc. are very different from gun to gun, and especially from Division to Division. An STI in a speed holster is a very different animal than a CZ in a Production holster, and polymer guns are even more different (in terms of weight, balance, grip). Trigger is different from gun to gun, and recoil definitely isn't the same from Prod to Lim to Open. Putting the equipment in the same place (either behind the hip bone or somewhere else) isn't going to change that. BTW, I'm also a Prod shooter who has my mags a bit more toward the hip in Limited than some friends, although they're definitely out in front of the hip bone. If I've shot either Div for a while, when I transition to the other Div my drawstroke is still what it was for the last one. It's sometimes funny when I first try to draw the Prod gun using the short drawstroke I use in Lim. Takes a few tries to get back to Prod style. The Divisions are different, and there's no reason to swap things around simply to satisfy someone's desire to make it easier for them. Everybody in a Div has the same rules to deal with, and we each work with them our own way, "freestyle" so to speak.

Yep to that. When I shot real fast I get a lot of D/M/NS hits. When I put the focus on the sight picture and shoot only as fast as I can see the sight alignment (except of course for those close targets), it feels "slower" but somehow my HFs are higher. Hmmm...

Mark is right. The duties of a RO can be summed up as safety - fairness - efficiency, in that order. Anybody who doesn't know what they're doing pretty much can't, by definition, manage a squad and a stage and a bay. Pure "timer holders" who don't have an idea about the responsibilities are set up to fail the rest of the squad and probably don't even know it. Sure, it may look like fun, but we all know there's a lot more to it. I know that we can use non-certified staff at L1. However, they have the same responsibility as anyone else holding the timer. We should supervise them and train them in the right procedures from the start. There's no such thing as "local match" rules, but that's what we hear a lot around here ("That's no big deal, it's just a local match.") I started out being trained and mentored by a certified RO, who was pretty straight with me about both the rules and the procedures. When I took the class I had a good start, and yet there was a whole lot more to know and a whole different level of awareness about what we're about. Then there's more learning as you go along, and I'm still seeking advise from more seasoned ROs. If you really want to do it right there's a lot to learn, but it's rewarding. Nobody should ever hand a timer over to a newcomer, whether they're nice about it or just pushy. That's a built-in safety issue, in my book. How can they be responsible for anything, let alone safety (and fairness and efficiency) when they don't even now the sport? (Why is it we don't just hand them a GM card when they start? You gotta earn your way...) Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that using untrained and/or unqualified timer people is itself a safety issue. Something will happen, and then it's too late. I'm with the crowd that says go to the MD and let him/her know what's going on; their response will tell you whether you should shoot there. And yes, reporting it to NROI is a clear option if things are really out of line. It's our sport, and we're all responsible for keeping it intact.

Don't shoot IDPA myself, but if it doesn't (or seldom) happen, perhaps it's because they clearly set it out as an expectation, and enough participants honor it that it isn't too much of a problem? Many of the above posts seem to be saying that participation isn't clearly announced or vocally expected at their clubs, so maybe we need to make a change.