Standing outside the shooting area

[bret]

WSB says

Start anywhere standing outside the shooting area.

If I have one foot outside the shooting area, I am outside the shooting area correct?

[ktm300]

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area.

The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

[bret]

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area.

The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

If you are shooting and have one foot out of the shooting area on the ground or even touching outside the shooting area, aren't you outside the shooting area?

WSB didn't say standing wholly outside the shooting area, says standing outside the shooting area.

[robb315]

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area.

The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

If you are shooting and have one foot out of the shooting area on the ground or even touching outside the shooting area, aren't you outside the shooting area?

WSB didn't say standing wholly outside the shooting area, says standing outside the shooting area.

On that logic, wouldn't the other way to look at it is you're also standing inside the shooting area too? Therefore not in compliance with the start position?

[open17]

"Shooting area" is no different than a fault line. Or a start box (4 fault lines configured in a square). If you are touching the ground outside, you are OUT.

So one foot out and one foot in is OUT-------unless the WSB states something like "Standing completely outside the shooting area". Not sure how that

would fly at a level 2 or Level 3, but I see it at Level 1's.

[bret]

"Shooting area" is no different than a fault line. Or a start box (4 fault lines configured in a square). If you are touching the ground outside, you are OUT.

So one foot out and one foot in is OUT-------unless the WSB states something like "Standing completely outside the shooting area". Not sure how that

would fly at a level 2 or Level 3, but I see it at Level 1's.

The rules are the rules for all level of matches.

I think at level II and III matcges the WSB are better so they would tend to write them without so much room to game it.

When it says standing outside the shooting area, even if you are standing on the fault line touching outside the fault line you would be considered outside the shooting area.

[bret]

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area.

The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

If you are shooting and have one foot out of the shooting area on the ground or even touching outside the shooting area, aren't you outside the shooting area?

WSB didn't say standing wholly outside the shooting area, says standing outside the shooting area.

On that logic, wouldn't the other way to look at it is you're also standing inside the shooting area too? Therefore not in compliance with the start position?

No because if I touch outside the shooting area with my foot, I get a procedural penalty for being outside the shooting area.

It can't be both, either you are outside if the shooting area when faulting or you aren't.

[robb315]

My take on that is no. To be inside the shooting area you have to have at least one foot in and not be touching outside the shooting area.

The reverse of that would be at least one foot outside and nothing touching inside.

If you are shooting and have one foot out of the shooting area on the ground or even touching outside the shooting area, aren't you outside the shooting area?

WSB didn't say standing wholly outside the shooting area, says standing outside the shooting area.

On that logic, wouldn't the other way to look at it is you're also standing inside the shooting area too? Therefore not in compliance with the start position?

No because if I touch outside the shooting area with my foot, I get a procedural penalty for being outside the shooting area.

It can't be both, either you are outside if the shooting area when faulting or you aren't.

Yeah, didn't think of that. Interesting...

[jhgtyre]

The penalty for having a foot out of the shooting area, or being partially out, is for failing to comply with the stage description. I would asses the same penalty for being partially in the shooting area when the description states that you must be out.

[bret]

The penalty for having a foot out of the shooting area, or being partially out, is for failing to comply with the stage description. I would asses the same penalty for being partially in the shooting area when the description states that you must be out.

Rule number?

You are either in the shooting area or out of the shooting area.

What rule says partially out or partially in?

Edited February 2, 2016 by bret

[BARRYJ]

I just went read 10.2.1 They don't mention being "outside" the shooting area. If your foot touches the ground outside the shooting area, you are no longer "inside" the shooting area. I think the opposite would be true. If the stage briefing states that you must be outside the shooting area and one foot is touching inside the shooting area, you are no longer outside the shooting area. If I were RO'ing a shooter that wanted to stand with one foot in and one foot out, I wouldn't start him until he, in my opinion, complied with the starting position. If he had a problem, we would call the range master.

[bret]

I just went read 10.2.1 They don't mention being "outside" the shooting area. If your foot touches the ground outside the shooting area, you are no longer "inside" the shooting area. I think the opposite would be true. If the stage briefing states that you must be outside the shooting area and one foot is touching inside the shooting area, you are no longer outside the shooting area. If I were RO'ing a shooter that wanted to stand with one foot in and one foot out, I wouldn't start him until he, in my opinion, complied with the starting position. If he had a problem, we would call the range master.

If you have a foot touching outside of the shooting area you are considered outside the shooting area.

If just having one foot inside the shooting area is considered inside the shooting area, then how can you fault someone under 10.2.1?

You are either outside the shooting area or you aren't, it can't be both.

If the WSB says outside the shooting area, you could stand with a foot outside or touching the ground outside the shooting area and it would be a legal start position IMO.

If the WSB says wholly outside, then touching inside the start area is not allowed.

[BARRYJ]

Not gonna argue with you. You asked a question and I answered it. Nowhere in 10.2.1 does it mention "outside". It tells you that if both feet aren't inside, that you are no longer inside. In my opinion, same would be true for being outside, if both feet aren't outside, then you are no longer outside.

[BARRYJ]

If you have a foot touching outside of the shooting area you are considered outside the shooting area.

I think this is where you are wrong. The word "outside" is not in the rule. If you have a foot touching outside the shooting box, you are considered no longer inside the shooting box. Think of it as all in, all out and half in and half out. You are penalized for being all out or half in and half out. So, to me, half in and half out does not work if you are instructed to start outside the box.

Edited February 2, 2016 by BARRYJ

[Sarge]

This happened at a major somewhere I shot last year. I don't remember where. In the end, after a debate exactly like this one, the RM determined standing outside the shooting area for a start is different than faulting while shooting. He concluded "standing" involved both feet so standing outside the shooting area meant exactly that. Both feet on the ground outside the shooting area.

[bret]

If you have a foot touching outside of the shooting area you are considered outside the shooting area.

I think this is where you are wrong. The word "outside" is not in the rule. If you have a foot touching outside the shooting box, you are considered no longer inside the shooting box. Think of it as all in, all out and half in and half out. You are penalized for being all out or half in and half out. So, to me, half in and half out does not work if you are instructed to start outside the box.

exactly if you are touching outside the shooting area you are not inside the shooting area,so you are outside the shooting area.

You are trying to say you are outside the shooting area when touching outside, but also saying if you are touching inside the shooting area you are inside, can't be both.

Would be a good question for Troy.

[BARRYJ]

You are letting the English language get in the way. Just because you are not inside, the opposite does not have to be true. And if we don't rain out Sunday, I should see Troy. I'll ask him.

[bret]

You are letting the English language get in the way. Just because you are not inside, the opposite does not have to be true. And if we don't rain out Sunday, I should see Troy. I'll ask him.

WSB

Start position anywhere outside shooting area.

Or sometimes the WSB says

Standing anywhere outside the shooting area.

So since you can get faulted for touching outside the shooting area, you are outside the shooting area.

Standing means upright. Not sitting or laying down.

Word it like that as sometimes that is what the stage brief says.

Other WSB say

Standing wholly outside the shooting area.

The latter I agree can't be anywhere inside the shooting area.

[BARRYJ]

The terminology used during a match is sometimes wrong. If you are penalized for a foot fault, most people say that you are "outside" the shooting box. The terminology should be that you are "not inside" the shooting box. Again, "outside" is not in the rule. Now I'm going to the gym.

[bret]

The terminology used during a match is sometimes wrong. If you are penalized for a foot fault, most people say that you are "outside" the shooting box. The terminology should be that you are "not inside" the shooting box. Again, "outside" is not in the rule. Now I'm going to the gym.

If you aren't inside then you're outside.

[Nik Habicht]

The penalty for having a foot out of the shooting area, or being partially out, is for failing to comply with the stage description. I would asses the same penalty for being partially in the shooting area when the description states that you must be out.

Rule number?

You are either in the shooting area or out of the shooting area.

What rule says partially out or partially in?

Bret -- it'll be really simple when the RO never gives the "Are you Ready" command......

You'll know you're not in the right position, and that the RO won't proceed until you assume correct start position.....

ETA: Careful not to confuse the rules for faulting a line while shooting, with the rules governing the start position. Again -- comes down to the RO's ability to enforce a consistent -- though not necessarily identical -- start for all competitors.

And yes -- the reasons this usually doesn't come up at Level 2 or higher is a better written WSB and consistent stage staffing......

[JayWord]

The penalty for having a foot out of the shooting area, or being partially out, is for failing to comply with the stage description. I would asses the same penalty for being partially in the shooting area when the description states that you must be out.

Rule number?

You are either in the shooting area or out of the shooting area.

What rule says partially out or partially in?

Bret -- it'll be really simple when the RO never gives the "Are you Ready" command......

You'll know you're not in the right position, and that the RO won't proceed until you assume correct start position.....

ETA: Careful not to confuse the rules for faulting a line while shooting, with the rules governing the start position. Again -- comes down to the RO's ability to enforce a consistent -- though not necessarily identical -- start for all competitors.

And yes -- the reasons this usually doesn't come up at Level 2 or higher is a better written WSB and consistent stage staffing......

And you guys wonder why toes touching or heels against end up in WSB.

Jay

[ktm300]

I have seen some real top level gaming on toes and heels touching start positions.

My favorite start position is

Standing anywhere inside the shooting area, facing any direction, hands above respective shoulders.

[motosapiens]

exactly if you are touching outside the shooting area you are not inside the shooting area,so you are outside the shooting area.

I think this is a false dichotomy. You are acting as if there are only 2 states of being, fully outside and fully inside, and you must be one or the other. I disagree. With one foot out and one in, you are neither inside nor outside the shooting area.

I think this discussion is also part of the maturation process for everyone who wants to really understand and enforce rules consistently. We had this discussion at my club, using the same logic you are using, and we came to the same conclusion that everyone else experienced has come to. You are welcome to join us, or you can be wrong and frustrated.

Edited February 2, 2016 by motosapiens

[JAFO]

WSB

Start position anywhere outside shooting area.

Or sometimes the WSB says

Standing anywhere outside the shooting area.

So since you can get faulted for touching outside the shooting area, you are outside the shooting area.

I see 10.2.1 as indicating the penalty for faulting a line while firing. It doesn't say anything about whether you're considered wholly inside, partially inside, etc, with the exception of defining completely leaving the shooting area in this section:

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

It just defines what penalties you get for faulting the line to various degrees. By your own logic, if I say you must be outside the shooting area, wouldn't you be faulting the line by having one foot inside?