RickT Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Background: Super seniors shooting SC with 9mm 1911 and very soft loads. Wife has some damage to her left wrist which affects her grip strength. We each shoot 2000+ rounds/month. Whether I make a soft load 115gr load with adequate margin for function or a very soft load my wife has said for a long time that she has to wait for the muzzle to drop when doing short transitions or for double taps in case of a miss. I recently discovered that she is literally waiting for the muzzle to drop, letting gravity do the work versus driving the gun back on target. My wife is very coordinated and even with somewhat limited grip strength is more than capable of actively reacquiring an adequate sight picture, but what simple drill would you all recommend that will focus on developing this skill? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge40 Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 What about a heavier recoil spring to drive the muzzle further down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastluck13 Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 23 minutes ago, Edge40 said: What about a heavier recoil spring to drive the muzzle further down? This. a heavier spring will drive the muzzle down faster. Though it is possible she needs to hold the gun more rigidly so there is wrist tension driving it back too. think about what a gun looks like being fired from a ransom rest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uewpew Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Bill Drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickT Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 I don't think they can stiffen up her grip very much in terms of wrist tension. I can easily try a heavier recoil springwith the potential trade-off on upping the powder charge a bit. I'm also loading up some N320/147gr, but that's primarily to use up some bullet stock; shot some of this yesterday and I couldn't tell much difference between the 115gr soft load and the 147gr soft load. I don't mind experimenting since I'm a former engineer, but my wife's brain is wired differently which limits her patience with experimentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I can't see a heavier recoil spring helping. The gun is just going to rise farther, then come down faster and probably end up dipping. Then you'll bump up the charge to cycle the gun reliably which wont help either. I'd probably try the lightest spring I can get to run the gun. Add a little weight if she can handle it, a tungsten guide rod would be a easy way to add a couple oz. to the front of the gun and keep it flatter. I'd also probably consider open division, then you can get the comp to help her bring the gun down. I also know men who have wrist problems, and have taught themselves to shoot with the other hand. But, I don't know that this would help in her situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I don't have video so this is tough to judge. If she has a weak grip, I'm not sure how the pistol wouldn't be slapping itself back down on the slide closing. I have a suspicion that the problem isn't in her wrists or grip. I think that her arms/body are soaking up recoil and she has to realign herself after each shot. This is pretty common with people who are smaller. If you haven't already, watch the whole body. If that is steady as a rock and it's just the wrists moving, I'm not sure what else to tell you. A stronger recoil spring is not going to be a great solution because the slide will need more energy to get all of the way back and will slap down beyond the point of aim if she has a weak grip. A 9mm 1911 is about the softest shooter you're going to find. just my two cents. I'm not a GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) It sounds like the OP is asking for a drill to encourage her to learn to actively drive the gun back down with her forearms & wrists, because she is riding the recoil rather than opposing it. And everyone is suggesting equipment changes or discussing theory. Have her smack the underside of the muzzle of your gun to demonstrate what locked wrists and tight forearms can down without having to "crush grip" the gun with strength she doesn't possess. Then do the same with hers and experiment with a dry gun on different ways to minimize how high & long the gun recoils/flips. Edited November 11, 2016 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Drills don't do any good if you don't understand the problem....for example, the one you suggested will have no effect if it is actually her body that is rocking with the recoil. Not trying to start an argument, but trying to show that we need to understand the problem before we can offer solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Without seeing video of her shooting I don't see how any viable advice can be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickT Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 I'll try to collect a video. She's 150 lbs. and despite a bad hip I don't see much adverse movement of body or arms. Observed in real time the muzzle isn't even coming up that much. I do think she's just not actively driving the gun back to target center. I previously hadn't understood why, when I've asked her to rapid fire, the rate of fire was less than what I would have expected from her skill level; I think the result of waiting for the muzzle to descend. I know when I rapid fire, particularly with my HK and factory ammo, I've got to concentrate very hard on restoring the sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 See my previous reply. Im not theorizing here - I've used that demo with success with newer shooters before, to show them what "driving" the gun means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickT Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/11/2016 at 7:03 PM, MemphisMechanic said: See my previous reply. Im not theorizing here - I've used that demo with success with newer shooters before, to show them what "driving" the gun means. Spent some time at the range yesterday and some talked over things last evening. I think my wife has a better grasp on the concept of recoil management and the values of drills design specifically to this end. I can better understand why her attempts at rapid fire are so much slower than her ability to manipulate the trigger: she has been "waiting" for the muzzle to drop. In my mind it's about training to drive the gun back on target; in our case with so little recoil it doesn't take much "driving". We're going to start with the Bill drill and then expand to target transitions, first with the targets only 1 foot apart, and gradually spreading them out. This will help my wife understand the relevance of the Bill drill to controlling the gun during transitions. We'll see how it goes, but wife is highly coordinated so I think we're on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Is your Wife gripping the gun tightly with her weak hand? In the correct position? Leaning into the gun (as opposed to leaning backwards)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickT Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 She grips with as much strength as available in her left hand, wrist damaged some years ago. She's very balanced and her transitions are generally very good. Just needs to learn what it means to manage recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 (edited) Sounds like you have it diagnosed. Needs to learn to drive the gun on the close fast targets, instead of ride the recoil - which is something she should know is a sound way to shoot at distant small targets where split times aren't as crucial as accuracy. Oftentimes a novice simply hasn't had someone explain to them that you need to shoot close vs far targets differently. Trigger control, sight picture, and recoil management can be changed if that's what you need to do to get a hit at your skill level. The only thing I don't personally change is my grip doesn't loosen up on long shots. Edited November 15, 2016 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 My wife, although she wont compete, will wear a wrist brace which helps dramatically with recoil control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 hour ago, mlmiller1 said: wear a wrist brace which helps dramatically with recoil control. Is that "legal"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highhope Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 A wrist brace from a pharmacy or wal mart should be perfectly legal. At least in uspsa. Dont know much at all about idpa rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomOne Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 This answer does not address you question so I apologize in advance but if you are shooting steel challenge have you considered switching to 22LR? My wife will not compete with a centerfire but shoots rifle and pistol in 22LR and loves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngodwetrust21 Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 I am not a fan of the bill drill for this. I like the dot drill a lot for this. 6 shots at 2" circles from 7 yards in 5.3 seconds. You do 6 strings of this for a total of 36 rounds. Goal is to get all the shots in the circle. This will force her to drive the gun back down to make the shots in the time limit. It also teaches amazing trigger control and shot calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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