Unload and show clear

[rowdyb]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

[bret]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

It is cool until you sweep yourself, or do like half the people doing it and drop the bullet looking like a fool.

You sweep yourself doing the bullet catch flip, you get to go to Dairy Queen.

[teros135]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

It is cool until you sweep yourself, or do like half the people doing it and drop the bullet looking like a fool.

You sweep yourself doing the bullet catch flip, you get to go to Dairy Queen.

Just so everybody knows, F&C is used every day by thousands (or hundreds or certainly lotsa) of shooters. Don't know of many (actually none, personally) who have DQd while doing it. Do things intelligently and it usually turns out okay.

Don't know anybody who looks like a fool doing it, either.

OTOH, if some self-important RO tells you you can't do it, ask him to show you where it says so in the book or the NROI rules clarifications. It aint there.

Edited July 17, 2016 by teros135

[bret]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

It is cool until you sweep yourself, or do like half the people doing it and drop the bullet looking like a fool.

You sweep yourself doing the bullet catch flip, you get to go to Dairy Queen.

Just so everybody knows, F&C is used every day by thousands (or hundreds or certainly lotsa) of shooters. Don't know of many (actually none, personally) who have DQd while doing it. Do things intelligently and it usually turns out okay.

Don't know anybody who looks like a fool doing it, either.

OTOH, if some self-important RO tells you you can't do it, ask him to show you where it says so in the book or the NROI rules clarifications. It aint there.

They can do it, but if they sweep themselves, they get DQ'd.

When dropping the bullet or coming close to sweep themselves, IMO they look like a fool, but as long as they are safe, have at it.

[teros135]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

It is cool until you sweep yourself, or do like half the people doing it and drop the bullet looking like a fool.

You sweep yourself doing the bullet catch flip, you get to go to Dairy Queen.

Just so everybody knows, F&C is used every day by thousands (or hundreds or certainly lotsa) of shooters. Don't know of many (actually none, personally) who have DQd while doing it. Do things intelligently and it usually turns out okay.

Don't know anybody who looks like a fool doing it, either.

OTOH, if some self-important RO tells you you can't do it, ask him to show you where it says so in the book or the NROI rules clarifications. It aint there.

They can do it, but if they sweep themselves, they get DQ'd.

When dropping the bullet or coming close to sweep themselves, IMO they look like a fool, but as long as they are safe, have at it.

You said all that already.

IMO is only an opinion. The rules are what guide our actions, or should.

[JAFO]

Ever since reading that Front Sight article on the .40 S&W detonation against the ejector, I'm more concerned about those who rack the last round out while covering the ejection port than I am about someone doing a F&C.

[bret]

Ever since reading that Front Sight article on the .40 S&W detonation against the ejector, I'm more concerned about those who rack the last round out while covering the ejection port than I am about someone doing a F&C.

A guy I shoot with is missing the tip of his finger due to a round going off when it hit the ejector.

[donquixote]

?

most of the flip and catch folks i shoot with understand that practice doesn't give the RO enough time to verify clear, so they usually pull the slide back after catching to let the RO verify clear.

I'm a flipper catcher, but then I always re-rack the slide so RO can see.

I will admit, when I was a new shooter, I started with a da/sa pistol. I was dropping the hammer with my decocker for a number of matches before a smarter than me RO pointed out that I needed to pull the trigger. Obviously I was doing the wrong thing, but I mever really thought about it until he mentioned it to me.

[Speed0verdose]

Watched a guy "Show clear" twice and it went bang both times. 2 holes in a table because he was turned when the RO thought he dropped the mag and held it up high enough and at the right angle so that the RO could see into the chamber but couldn't see the mag was still in the gun.

That's why the next word is "IF" clear hammer down and holster. The responsibility is on the shooter, but the "Range is clear command" will not be issued until the hammer is dropped via trigger pull and the gun doesn't go bang and is then re-holstered per the rules.

Just going off what our instructor said at our last class.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Speed0verdose

[IronArcher]

when i do the "flip n catch" at ULSC I also lock the slide back at the same time. you still get the cdi (chicks dig it) points and the RO gets to see an empty chamber. just a little pressure with the right thumb and all is well.

It is cool until you sweep yourself, or do like half the people doing it and drop the bullet looking like a fool.

You sweep yourself doing the bullet catch flip, you get to go to Dairy Queen.

And how is that different to anything else on the line?

If you sweep yourself running, you get a DQ

Sweep yourself drawing, get a DQ.

So dropping the round while attempting a F&C makes you look like a fool, but dropping the round on purpose makes you look smart?

[ltdmstr]

There's a separate thread that's about 60 pages long debating the safety issues of F&C for those that want to participate. And probably at least a couple dozen more of shorter duration. But if you guys feel we need another, have at it.

[frgood]

I recall reading somewhere, and perhaps someone can help with this, that the responsibility always remains on the shooter to inspect and ensure the chamber is clear. While the rule is it must be presented to the RO. The onus is not on tho RO to make the final determination. It is fully the shooters responsibility to make sure the chamber is clear. before holstering. In other words, if there is a ND, it is on the shooter. "Do not blame the RO for covering your safety responsibility"

[ltdmstr]

I recall reading somewhere, and perhaps someone can help with this, that the responsibility always remains on the shooter to inspect and ensure the chamber is clear. While the rule is it must be presented to the RO. The onus is not on tho RO to make the final determination. It is fully the shooters responsibility to make sure the chamber is clear. before holstering. In other words, if there is a ND, it is on the shooter. "Do not blame the RO for covering your safety responsibility"

The RO is there for a reason. He's not a bystander. So although the shooter bears ultimate responsibility, the RO is also responsible for safety issues. Also, if the rounds go safely into the berm, is it still an ND or is it an AD?

[JAFO]

Also, if the rounds go safely into the berm, is it still an ND or is it an AD?

Doesn't matter whether you call it negligent or accidental, you're DQ'd:

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

[ltdmstr]

Also, if the rounds go safely into the berm, is it still an ND or is it an AD?

Doesn't matter whether you call it negligent or accidental, you're DQ'd:

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

Of course. I'll leave the ND thing for a separate discussion.

[George Jones]

Sweeping yourself during draw or holster is not particularly a DQ. Rule 10.5.5.1

[bret]

Sweeping yourself during draw or holster is not particularly a DQ. Rule 10.5.5.1

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

You sweep yourself by putting your hand or arm in front of the muzzle, while loading, unloading, holstering etc., it is a D.Q.

[teros135]

Sweeping yourself during draw or holster is not particularly a DQ. Rule 10.5.5.1

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

You sweep yourself by putting your hand or arm in front of the muzzle, while loading, unloading, holstering etc., it is a D.Q.

I'm pretty sure George knew that when he cited 10.5.5.1, which refers to sweeping the lower extremities during the draw or holstering.

If you sweep yourself otherwise, or violate the 180, or AD, or [insert any of the other safety rules in the book], well those stand alone are are separate from 10.5.5.1.

[bret]

Sweeping yourself during draw or holster is not particularly a DQ. Rule 10.5.5.1

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

You sweep yourself by putting your hand or arm in front of the muzzle, while loading, unloading, holstering etc., it is a D.Q.

I'm pretty sure George knew that when he cited 10.5.5.1, which refers to sweeping the lower extremities during the draw or holstering.

If you sweep yourself otherwise, or violate the 180, or AD, or [insert any of the other safety rules in the book], well those stand alone are are separate from 10.5.5.1.

I am pretty sure George can speak for himself.

[George Jones]

Yes I can, but I usually don't bother when a reply is unnecessary.

[mike l m]

When I RO or So, call it whatever, I need to see that the chamber is clear and no magazine in the pistol. Been down that DQ lane. I will say that if it hasn't happened yet it will no matter how careful you are. Think or Murphy's Law. What can go wrong will go wrong.

Of course this is in my very humble opinion.

Have been shooting USPSA since about 1986 so I have seen some U&SC that would amaze some folks. It's all good as long as it is done safely and by the book.

Mike

[blasterboy]

Confessions of an RO.....

This happened to me last weekend.  I did see an empty chamber, the shooter was standing on a 12" platform so I couldn't see down into the gun.  As I said "if clear......", my mind was asking, "where did he put the mag?"  We all found out when he fired a hole through the wall.  I'd rather be accused of coaching a shooter to safely unload, than the alternative possibilities.  Safety has to be our #1 priority.  If I'm ever unsure, I'll repeat "If finished, unload......"  It was the shooters responsibility, but I feel it was also a failure on my part.  The good news is it went through a wall and into the berm, no injuries, and I don't expect that competitor to repeat that mistake any time soon, he didn't dispute the DQ and even stayed to patch.

JK

 

[teros135]

It probably works best when it's taken as a mutual responsibility but, yes, ultimately it's up to the one who's holding the gun.  That pretty much means that "If clear, hammer down, holster" says the shooter needs to be sure the gun is clear before pulling the trigger. 

It's a really good idea to take the time to look straight into the chamber, then pull the gun toward you a little and look directly into the magwell.  If your view of the gravel/grass through the magwell is obstructed by something holding a shiny brass cylinder with a bullet in the forward end of it, start over (ULSC...) 

There are no points for unloading as quickly as we shot the COF. 

[mreed911]

5 hours ago, blasterboy said:

I'd rather be accused of coaching a shooter to safely unload, than the alternative possibilities.  Safety has to be our #1 priority.  If I'm ever unsure, I'll repeat "If finished, unload......"

As you should, IMO.  There are two parts to ULSC.  SC is the second.  If you're not sure of the first (or the shooter didn't do the first part), repeating the command is the right thing to do in the sequence.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, blasterboy said:

Confessions of an RO.....

This happened to me last weekend.  I did see an empty chamber, the shooter was standing on a 12" platform so I couldn't see down into the gun.  As I said "if clear......", my mind was asking, "where did he put the mag?"  We all found out when he fired a hole through the wall.  I'd rather be accused of coaching a shooter to safely unload, than the alternative possibilities.  Safety has to be our #1 priority.  If I'm ever unsure, I'll repeat "If finished, unload......"  It was the shooters responsibility, but I feel it was also a failure on my part.  The good news is it went through a wall and into the berm, no injuries, and I don't expect that competitor to repeat that mistake any time soon, he didn't dispute the DQ and even stayed to patch.

JK

 

He didn't dispute the DQ?!? Not much to dispute!  Those are the kind of DQ I prefer. No judgment call, no debate, no problem.