Unload and show clear

[bret]

3 times this weekend I had to repeat unload, show clear.

2 times I had to tell the shooter to drop the magazine and show clear.

1 guy I told him Don't pull the trigger, you still have a round in the chamber.

 

is this coaching, or doing what an R.O. should?

[motosapiens]

is it a level 1 match? are we talking about noob shooters? Sometimes coaching *is* what an RO should do.

 

[Chills1994]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

3 times this weekend I had to repeat unload, show clear.

2 times I had to tell the shooter to drop the magazine and show clear.

1 guy I told him Don't pull the trigger, you still have a round in the chamber.

 

is this coaching, or doing what an R.O. should?

I have been away from the forums for a while.  I am just kinda here to check out the new format.

 

In my opinion, coaching would be something you do while the shooter is "still on the clock" in an effort to improve his or her performance.

 

If they were done shooting the stage by the looks of it, then you weren't really coaching.  You were ensuring the safety of the match.

 

Way back when, when I used to RO or SO, if a shooter missed a target or totally ran by a target, I would say, "IFFFFFF! you are finished, unload and show clear."  Yeah, that was coaching but every shooter I ever did that to, never caught the "IFFFFF!" part.  If they had figured it out, they would have to run back to whatever target they skipped, and the additional time killed their score, but not as bad as the penalty mikes or "failure to engage" penalties.

[Chills1994]

I have to wonder if electronic ear muffs and or electronic moulded in ear plugs would have helped that situation.

[IHAVEGAS]

On July 1, 2016 at 5:09 PM, pskys2 said:

So far I've never had anyone get P.O.'d over it, 

Anyone ever seen anyone get p.o.'d over it? I get more of a sense that the shooters like it if they know you are a bit of a stickler about the safety rules. As a shooter, I do. 

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, bret said:

3 times this weekend I had to repeat unload, show clear.

2 times I had to tell the shooter to drop the magazine and show clear.

1 guy I told him Don't pull the trigger, you still have a round in the chamber.

is this coaching, or doing what an R.O. should?

Technically it's coaching because it's outside the commands given on a stage.  In reality, especially at a local match, coach-throughs are just fine and with newer shooters this helps keep them from getting DQ'ed, upset, discouraged, and doesn't affect the match score in the slightest.  A little talk afterwards about "remember your sequence - we want you to go home safe at the end of the match, not now..." sets the tone, IMO.

[Doug H.]

3 hours ago, mreed911 said:

Technically it's coaching because it's outside the commands given on a stage.  In reality, especially at a local match, coach-throughs are just fine and with newer shooters this helps keep them from getting DQ'ed, upset, discouraged, and doesn't affect the match score in the slightest.  A little talk afterwards about "remember your sequence - we want you to go home safe at the end of the match, not now..." sets the tone, IMO.

Not coaching. A safety warning is not coaching. When a shooter does not adequately show me the chamber I repeat the "Unload and show clear" command.  I have had at least 2 times that shooters had a round in the chamber when clearing.  Making sure a shooter's gun is clear is no joke and as the RO I am responsible to make sure the gun is safe before I make the range clear.

8.6.1

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

 

Doug

Edited September 20, 2016 by Doug H.

[mreed911]

26 minutes ago, Doug H. said:

Not coaching. A safety warning is not coaching. When a shooter does not adequately show me the chamber I repeat the "Unload and show clear" command.  I have had at least 2 times that shooters had a round in the chamber when clearing.  Making sure a shooter's gun is clear is no joke and as the RO I am responsible to make sure the gun is safe before I make the range clear.

I'm not talking about not making sure the gun is safe, I'm talking about "coaching" vs. giving the commands.  Repeating the commands isn't coaching and should be done until we can move to the next step, e.g. multiple ULSC's (in this exact case, it was shown clear but NOT unloaded, which would have caused a problem at hammer down...).  There's a difference between repeating the commands and instructing a shooter how not to DQ (in fact, I'd argue that if I knowingly instruct a shooter who isn't unloaded AND shown clear to then hammer down and it goes bang, that's partially my fault too (even with "IF clear..." as part of the command).

I think we're agreeing in different terms... and safety warnings can be things like "muzzle" and "trigger" beyond the end of course of fire commands.

Again, at a Level I match, I'm expecting newer shooters and nobody is going to be hard-ass on telling them "drop your mag then rack the slide again" vs. just letting them DQ.  Past that, the rules specifically allow a coach-through for just these reasons.

[Kraj]

New shooter are the exception, it's pretty clear who is new.

 

I was just wondering how many people took it upon themselves to make sure the gun was clear before they inssued hammer down. I'm not that worried about it myself. If they put a extra round into the dirt after they "unload" that's on them and I bet they won't do it again

[9x45]

The rules have it boxed up...

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

8.3.2 “Are You Ready?” – The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed.

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear”

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster”

8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

So, if the gun is not clear, it loops endlessly to 8.3.6 until

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire.

 

So, I don’t see any coaching in this at all, even though a Level 1 shooter could ask for coaching, even though there is not a requirement to have NROI certified RO’s at Level 1 matches. The only other thing could be a broken extractor, in which case the round should be cleared on the line by prying it out and returning to 8.3.7

[Kraj]

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” or “If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster” for revolvers only – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any).

8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the 
hammer, if any).

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun.

8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

 

 

 

If the hammer falls and the gun doesn't go off holster. 

 

If the hammer falls and the gun goes off go back to unload and show clear until they can drop the hammer and have it not go off

Edited September 21, 2016 by Kraj
Fix phone copy paste

[Kraj]

4 minutes ago, Kraj said:

 

 

1 hour ago, 9x45 said:

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Kraj

[9x45]

So it happened to me at a Level 2 match years ago with my oldest 2 pin G17 (now over 200K rounds). If finished, show clear, so I pull the mag, crank the slide, eject the round, and push the slide stop to release the slide, and the whole upper flies off on top of the table (table start, no movement). Again the RO says if finished show clear. So I put the G17 frame on top of the table, pickup the slide assembly, pop the recoil spring, pull the barrel out, we both look thru it, then the RO says hammer down holster, so I pick up the G17 frame, push the trigger bar forward (its the way works on a Glock) and pull the trigger on the frame, and holster the frame. RO says Range is clear. Pickup slide parts, return to safety area, switch out for my G17 backup gun (identical setup) and finish day 1. Immediately order 2 new slide locks and slide lock springs. 

[9x45]

20 minutes ago, Kraj said:

If the hammer falls and the gun goes off go back to unload and show clear until they can drop the hammer and have it not go off

DQ, redundant, but self correcting. 

[bret]

20 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Anyone ever seen anyone get p.o.'d over it? I get more of a sense that the shooters like it if they know you are a bit of a stickler about the safety rules. As a shooter, I do. 

actually a guy I saved from a DQ said I was mean to him.

[9x45]

12 hours ago, Kraj said:

If the hammer falls and the gun goes off go back to unload and show clear until they can drop the hammer and have it not go off

 by Kraj

Hopefully they would have removed the magazine/emptied the cylinder so there are no more rounds to go off..... However, they can still only be DQ'd once.

[9x45]

9 minutes ago, bret said:

actually a guy I saved from a DQ said I was mean to him.

and you directed him to 8.3.2 "that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire"  Well, that is, unless the shooter was a girl, the rules do not say shooter, they say "HE"

[motosapiens]

56 minutes ago, bret said:

actually a guy I saved from a DQ said I was mean to him.

being mean to someone and saving him from a dq are not necessarily mutually exclusive circumstances.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, bret said:

actually a guy I saved from a DQ said I was mean to him.

I probably do not have the right disposition to become a good r.o. . 

If I asked somebody to follow the 'shooter must' procedure I just would not care if they did not like it. 

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I probably do not have the right disposition to become a good r.o. . 

If I asked somebody to follow the 'shooter must' procedure I just would not care if they did not like it. 

I think Bret is a much kinder and gentler soul than you. I bet he even has a cat.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think Bret is a much kinder and gentler soul than you. I bet he even has a cat.

Probably a safe bet, not sure about the cat though. 

[PatJones]

I think Bret is a much kinder and gentler soul than you. I bet he even has a cat.

Hey, I have a cat. I hope you're not implying I'm kind and gentle.