comments on my article in Combat Handguns

[huntershooter]

Sometimes my editors slip and let me publish an article about shooting

Combat Handguns, March 2010, p. 74

Feedback appreciated. Thanks!

[Flexmoney]

Post it! This is a forum for sharing information and discussions. So get to the sharing, so we can get to the discussion!!!

[huntershooter]

Post it! This is a forum for sharing information and discussions. So get to the sharing, so we can get to the discussion!!!

The article finally made it online.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/half-second-quick-draw/

[High Lord Gomer]

Cool, thanks!

Considering that I can sketch a gun faster than I can draw one, I think I better go read that again.

[Chris iliff]

I liked your article, a lot of good advice for anyone on this forum looking to get the gun presented properly/quickly. I read it and did not notice anything I would question too much. Of course, I'm just a "B" open guy. Hopefully some of the big dogs will read and report. From me....GOOD JOB!!!!!

[mgood]

I liked it.

Good basic info. There's some stuff there I can definately use.

[earlbob]

Interesting article. I used to read this mag all the time years ago think I'll give it another look. Is Ed Sanow still around?

earl

[bofe954]

I thought it was a decent article.

Revolver ace Jerry Miculek demonstrated a pair of Bill Drills, 12 hits with a draw and reload, blindfolded for a History Channel special. This far surpasses any skill claims made by point shooting advocates.

I am not sure if shooting blindfolded is really an argument for or against point shooting...

[RufDog]

I thought it was a good article.

[Torie]

Good advice, I like it.

[Jadeslade]

Nice article. I don't think .5 seconds is possible from concealment.

[CDRODA396]

Good article with some good info.

I do think this statement, "Military handgun training, when conducted at all, is even worse. Shooting from the holster is nearly unheard of there," is a generalization based on your experience and not true today for many units. I would agree that the "type" of unit and the "quality" of the unit will impact this, as well as the likelihood of actually using the handgun to defend oneself, but not a true statement for any of the units that I was associated with during my 20 years of Service.

This is true for many units that have pistols on their Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE) due to their support role, or as legacy items from years and years ago when the sidearm was the weapon of the Officer.

But for units that have the handgunn on their (TOE) as part of the individual's overall offensive weapons array is simply not true. Quality in-house training provided by the Schoolhouse, including transitions from long gun to handgun, draws, reloads, etc., is supplemented by Civilian Training Courses such as Mid-South, Griffen Group, Blackwater, etc. and reinforced through range local range training, using the pressure of time (timers) and competition is common. Flat range training, shoot house training and force on force training with Simmunitions is commonplace in some units.

[Ron Ankeny]

Pretty good article. This really got my attention:

An honest half-second draw is possible. It is certainly within the realm of anyone capable of shooting in the Master class range with a speed rig, and better competitors than me having done it with street worthy gear.

Not to be nit-picking, but we must have different definitions of "an honest draw".

[kfd147]

Good article. I will pass this along.

Jason

[pjb45]

I just finished watching some videos of Robbie and Nik doing draws at Rio Salado. Neither hit an honest half second draw. The vids may be available at Burkett's site.

I would suggest the title is incongruent with realistic achievement.

Having written a couple of articles myself, I know how hard putting ideas into words then into a cogent article. Nice Effort.

[Jadeslade]

Ron-I want some of your Cheetos.

[XD Niner]

Thanks very much for sharing the article John. It did a very good job of describing something in words that is much easier to understand with both words and visual actions. I wish you had written it five years ago when I was ingraining my own idiosyncratic draw movements. With the exception of the constructive criticisms above, the only thing I can offer is that I counted all my skeletal muscles and could only come up with 638. That's probably why I can't do the half second draw.

[Duane Thomas]

I have a somewhat similar article out this month in Gun World though it actually focuses on step-by-step how-to technique. And my article it titled "The Sub-Second Draw". Maybe with just a bit more practice I'll be able to hit that half-second mark.

[Duane Thomas]

An honest half-second draw is possible. It is certainly within the realm of anyone capable of shooting in the Master class range with a speed rig, and better competitors than me having done it with street worthy gear.

Are you sure? Not trying to be a smartass, but I'm not aware of any mere Master who has done a half-second draw. Actually I'm not personally aware of anyone who's ever done a half-second draw - at least not from a waist level holster to a two-handed, eye level, aimed shot, beginning from a hands-at-sides or surrender start (cowboy quick draw is a completely different kettle of fish) - though I could certainly stand to learn if it's ever been done. But if it has been we're talking high, HIGH Grand Master-level performance. A few years ago Matt Burkett told me that, on an open USPSA target at seven yards, he can very consistently pull an A or C hit in the mid-to-high .6s on up into the mid .7s, and he once did a .58. But that's with a dot sighted compgun out of a race rig, and the guy doing all that is a high Grand Master. An honest half-second draw by a Master class shooter with a speed rig, or by better competitors with street worthy gear? Well, I'll believe it when I see it. Actual examples with names and, ideally, video to support that statement would be appreciated.

[pjb45]

This is the link to the YouTube video of Matt, Nik, and TGO at the TGO Drillmasters match. None of them hit a half-second draw.

[Loves2Shoot]

A half second draw isn't unattainable if you just measure the draw and not the reaction to the buzzer. It almost takes as long to react to the buzzer as whip it out at LoHP speed for the really good guys.

[Duane Thomas]

Pretty sure that's not what we're talking about though, since the OP's article does mention timers. Also I don't really believe that's true. I've heard it said that Robbie Leatham's reaction time is .15 second (at least that's what Lenny Magill says on the IPSC Secrets video). If reaction time comprised almost as much time as the actual draw time, Robbie should be hitting draws in the .3s, right? Or maybe I'm not understanding exactly what you're trying to say. (?)

Speaking of IPSC Secrets, in that video Robbie does a pretty darn impressive .55 second draw and fire. However (1) that still doesn't make our half-second standard, (2) Robbie is using a race rig, (3) Robbie is hardly "any Master class shooter" in any sense of the term. When I mentioned this draw to Robbie, BTW, he pretty much said it didn't count because he was doing it in the studio with blanks instead of on the range with live ammo. As he said, with a wink, "It's all done with mirriors." I have to admit I did find it funny, when the gun went off at the end of the draw stroke, to see Robbie close his eyes. Apparently even TGO blinks at muzzle blast occasionally.

[Duane Thomas]

This is the link to the YouTube video of Matt, Nik, and TGO at the TGO Drillmasters match. None of them hit a half-second draw.

Paul, thanks for the link, that's a very interesting clip.

So, we've got Robbie Leatham with a race rig, missing the target most of the time in the low .7s, and commenting, "Where am I going to take off any more time, because I'm already not aiming." Nick Saiti does a .68 with a center hit and the crowd, which I can only assume has been watching high Grand Masters running race rigs do this for awhile, almost has an orgasm. I think I'm going to have to call BS on this whole "any Master class shooter can do a half second draw with a race rig" stuff. Sorry.

[Loves2Shoot]

I was just saying that if you don't count reaction time (ie. in a practical engagement, no buzzer goes off.), getting into the sub .5 isn't as mystical as it might sound from a highly skilled shooter. .15 is a very good reaction time, low .2's is more of a good reaction in my experiences. I've come to that conclusion on experiments with the gun presented to the target ready to shoot, trigger prepped and firing a shot as soon as you hear the buzzer go.

With this as a baseline over many shooters, it means any thing in the .65-69 ish range and you most likely the actual draw part is sub .5 IF you aren't counting reaction time. I've seen many mid 6's it in "grip it and rip it" drills by M-GM shooters, even some A and B shooters hit those times when they get in a groove.

When I was actually shooting some, the low 5's was as low as I ever got before I realized it was a pretty pointless thing to practice for me.

A sub .5 second reaction to a buzzer and draw to full presentation isn't a whole lot of time time and would be very challenging. I'd lay down $50 that if you put Rob on lights instead of a buzzer and gave him an hour, he would break .5 with the reaction time for a draw and shot.

When you are talking fractions of seconds every .1 is 20% or more, so my assertion of half was bit of an exaggeration, but not that much.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think I'm going to have to call BS on this whole "any Master class shooter can do a half second draw with a race rig" stuff. Sorry.

I was not commenting about from surrender in my comments OR hitting a target just raw speed from hands at side, grip and rip.

I think any time you use the word "any" or "all" and tight times, you will find there are many part of that group that aren't going to have the skills to accomplish the task. This is a case where it would be more like the 1% of the 1% could do it semi regularly from HaS, from surrender, it would be a special event IMO.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Loves2Shoot