TheBrick Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 A competitor is in a COF when he intentionally drops a mag out of his gun and reaches for a new mag with his weak hand. At this point, he appears to intentionally fire a round to make up a "mike." After the shot he inserts the new mag to continue in the COF. I applied a match DQ for a shot fired during a reload. the shooter tells me to look at the definitions in appendix A3 and it appears he is right. Reloading is only the act of inserting a new mag. I went to John A for a clarification and he said that a match DQ was unwarranted as long as the RO agrees that the shot fired was done safely. I always thought that a reload began with the removal of the spent mag and ended with the insertion of the new mag. Not by USPSA definition. I asked about a definition change to avoid such an problem and was told that the definitions were clear enough. What is your definition of reloading? Do you agree with the USPSA version or mine? Do you feel a DQ was appropriate or not? Being an RO is not an easy task with all the range rule lawyers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I beleive the rules are clear enough as written and that the DQ was in error. Reloading is only the act of inserting a new mag. You knew he was picking up a Mike, and if done safely, no issue at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I understand what the "intention" of the rule is, to avoid an AD. Now if he intentionally engaged a target, meaning a shot that impacted the area of a target, then NO I would not DQ him even if he had removed a magazine and was reaching for another one. Let's not get too hung up on "technicalities". The rules are there so that the competition is equal and safe. The more you treat it like a court, the more you will see lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) ...and it appears he is right. Well, it seems clear enough for you to agree with it. Why is it now not so clear when you want to change the rule? The rule is there in case of an AD. Nobody shoots of a shot intentionally while inserting the mag. Hence the definition. While you are right that in order to reload, you need to change magazine. However, the rule specifically refers to "loading, reloading, or unloading", not a mag change. Similarly, during the ULSC command, you can drop the mag then fire the round remaining in the chamber legally, even though you are in the process of, what you might think of, "unloading". Edited December 20, 2009 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I think the definition...inserting a mag...came about just because of situations like you have brought up. Some past RO was a bit too literal and went to DQ a shooter who stopped a reload-in-progress to legitimately engage a target. Now, the rule reads as it does (I am guessing) because of that. Now you know the proper call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 he appears to intentionally fire a round to make up a "mike." After the shot he inserts the new mag to continue in the COF. If he appeared (to you) to intentionally fire the round, then why did you stop him in the first place? This is not a DQ. While there must (and always will be) some judgment used on the RO's part, there is really no question here as to how to proceed. Intentional shots fired by the competitor are not grounds for a DQ. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I have to agree with Flex, by your description the shooter "stopped a reload in progress to legitimately engage a target". Once he took a sight picture and engaged the target, he was no longer in a reload sequence, thus, no DQ. Had he been inserting his magazine while actively engaging the target, DQ. My $.02. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) I did this at the Drazy match... I hit a popper and dropped the mag at the end of the COF, noticed that the damn popper didn't fall and took a SHO shot at it with the one in the pipe. It fell and the RO actually laughed at me as did the squad. Nope, no DQ... what they are looking for is an AD, no AD no DQ. JT Edited December 20, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Depends on the angle of the dangle when the gun went BANG! or FWIW, I DQ'ed a guy at the Single Stack Nat's in 2008 for launching one over the berm during a reload. So the common sense "sniff test" should be, did a bullet stand a really good chance of being launched off range? I have to agree with the majority of the posters here...in that particular OP's incident...NO DQ! Edited December 20, 2009 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Depends on the angle of the dangle when the gun went BANG! or FWIW, I DQ'ed a guy at the Single Stack Nat's in 2008 for launching one over the berm during a reload. No. An unintentional shot fired during a reload is always a DQ. The muzzle direction matters not. An unintentional shot fired over the berm is a different DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) No.An unintentional shot fired during a reload is always a DQ. The muzzle direction matters not. (10.4.3) An unintentional shot fired over the berm is a different DQ. (10.4.1) Yep...added the number since I had the book handy. Edited December 21, 2009 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 No.An unintentional shot fired during a reload is always a DQ. The muzzle direction matters not. (10.4.1) An unintentional shot fired over the berm is a different DQ. (10.4.3) Yep...added the number since I had the book handy. You have the rule numbers reversed. 10.4.1 is over the berm, 10.4.3 is during the reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I never did say that firing an unintentional shot during a reload was NOT a DQ. Re-read my post again. I am just merely suggesting ...or rather hinting that one could simply apply a common sense "sniff test" on whether to DQ or not DQ depending on how the gun is angled and subsequently infer from that angle whether the BANG! was intentional or not. Does everything have to be be turned into rocket surgery with you fellas? I haven't taken a peek at an LSAT prep book lately, but methinks having these discussions with you fellas might be a really good way to "bone up " for it. And just to kinda clue some folks into my modus operandi, when I post, I always try to give myself a way out and not paint myself into a corner so much. I try NOT to speak/write so unequivocally. I usually put caveats into my posts... If, then...If not, then ...and I am really good at putting quotation marks around things so as to give the possiblity of multiple meanings to certain words. Said another way... I try to give myself lots of wiggle room. Yeah, I am a gamer like that. Now, you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 A competitor is in a COF when he intentionally drops a mag out of his gun and reaches for a new mag with his weak hand. At this point, he appears to intentionally fire a round to make up a "mike." After the shot he inserts the new mag to continue in the COF. What's the problem? How's the shot you describe different from any other aimed shot? I've on occasion noticed a standing popper while unloading, and have fired the last round in the gun one-handed to knock it down. If done safely, it is --- and should remain --- legal..... If not done safely, we have various rules.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 It has nothing to do with range lawyering and everything to do with reading and understanding which rules apply to a particular circumstance. In the OP's post, the shot was described as "intentional" and no mention was made relative to direction, over the berm, etc. Therefore, it's a legal shot, and no need for interpreting the direction of the shot or any kind of "sniff test". No inference needed either. This is a rules discussion forum, so it does get a little "legalistic" at times. We try to apply the right rule, given the information provided. This is the only way to learn and to try and ensure consistent application of the rules at every USPSA match. Troy I never did say that firing an unintentional shot during a reload was NOT a DQ.Re-read my post again. I am just merely suggesting ...or rather hinting that one could simply apply a common sense "sniff test" on whether to DQ or not DQ depending on how the gun is angled and subsequently infer from that angle whether the BANG! was intentional or not. Does everything have to be be turned into rocket surgery with you fellas? I haven't taken a peek at an LSAT prep book lately, but methinks having these discussions with you fellas might be a really good way to "bone up " for it. And just to kinda clue some folks into my modus operandi, when I post, I always try to give myself a way out and not paint myself into a corner so much. I try NOT to speak/write so unequivocally. I usually put caveats into my posts... If, then...If not, then ...and I am really good at putting quotation marks around things so as to give the possiblity of multiple meanings to certain words. Said another way... I try to give myself lots of wiggle room. Yeah, I am a gamer like that. Now, you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Thanks Troy for your cogent response. I don't want to really re-hash my post up above... I do think that most people get what I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Thanks Troy for your cogent response.I don't want to really re-hash my post up above... I do think that most people get what I am saying. Brad, you may want to consider that we do get it, and simply prefer less hint and innuendo, and more hard data. This is offered only as food for thought. Not an invitation to drift further from the original question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 You have the rule numbers reversed. 10.4.1 is over the berm, 10.4.3 is during the reload. Ack....right you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Thanks Troy for your cogent response.I don't want to really re-hash my post up above... I do think that most people get what I am saying. It happened that what you wrote, was wrong. That required a response. It may be that what you meant, was not what you wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Being an RO is not an easy task with all the range rule lawyers out there. Insisting that proper rules are correctly applied should not make RO's job harder. Correct application of proper rules IS RO's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 If this was a DQ I would have had to send a bunch of folks hone lately. Shooting SS for the last month or two, I've seen a bunch of shots fired with non-mag'ed guns. It happens a lot when you only have 8 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrick Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 But wait, there's more! I would like to keep this going by adding the following points: First. The rule book states "A shot ..." fired during reloading is a match DQ. It does NOT specify intentional or otherwise. Second, if we follow the strict definition of unloading, reloading then any shot fired in the middle is A-okay as long as it impacts further than 10 feet from the competitor but does not travel over the backstop. An AD then only becomes a close shot or one over the berm! Third, if we follow the strict definition of unloading, reloading then in the middle part it is A-okay to have a finger in the trigger guard. If he is not removing a mag or inserting a mag, then what the devil is he doing? Look at the picture posted above. While I would like to call it a textbook reload, by definition I can't. This leads me to the next point. Fourth, at what point in that classic "reload" is the magazine considered to be "inserted." Yes, there was never any doubt on my part that the shooter intended to fire that round BUT, it will take a lot of convincing to make me believe that a reload does not start with mag removal and end with a seated mag and include all actions in between. Yes, I have the answer from the Rules Answer Man and will abide by that ruling in the future to apply the same standards used elsewhere. Still don't think it's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I was clearing and making safe the other night when I noticed a Mike on a paper target 3 ft away. With the mag in my left hand, I snapped the pistol up and dumped a C into the target. The RO was a little surprised, but it was fully legal... LOL Added about 1.5 seconds, but got the C... I agree, no DQ, it was a controlled, aimed shot. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Still don't think it's right. That is the sticking point. You have it in your head that it ought to be a certain way. If you are like many of us, you will try to part water to support your belief. In this case, I think you will find that by doing so...you will just get wet. Better to accept that a competitor can intentionally take a shot...thus stopping/pausing the reload process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Just a point of order... As a competitor ends their run on a cof, what range command has been given determines if the competitor may continue to shoot: 8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, ... 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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