New or Used home protection pistol?

[Duane Thomas]

Yeah, the great advantage of the two-stage decocking lever (at least that's what I've heard it called) auto pistols is that they give you a lot of options. The great disadvantage of the two-stage decocking lever handguns is that they give you a lot of options. People not familiar with the system do tend to get confused on such guns.

[furyalecto]

If possible, have him try shooting the guns (or similar ones) before he buys.

The Glock 17 is the best bet, but it does not point naturally for me. I don't like the way it feels when shooting it.

I prefer the steel gravitas of the S&W 5906. My nightstand gun is a 5906.

Besides, if you run out of ammunition you can always use it as a club.

It also depends on if it is going to be carried.

[baa]

I am going to agree with the majority here- Have him get a used Glock 17 or 22. I just went through the same decision process for my 60 year old mother. She is not a shooter, does not plan to be a shooter, and just wants a handgun for self defense. Even though I am personally a 1911biggot, I ended up getting her a Glock 19 (as she plans to occasionally carry concealed) as it is simply, reliable, easy to operate, cheap to keep running, etc. I did not go with a revolver for her as I think they are, at the end of the day, about equal in complexity to operate and a glock in 9mm is going to be easier to control from a recoil standpoint (and I think that having 16 rounds available is a good thing for someone who does not have a lot of training/living in FL where home invasions with multiple bad guys is not uncommon.)

[ima45dv8]

I hesitate to recommend a Glock for a new shooter, even more for one who probably won't practice with it regularly. Finger discipline is the main issue for me. Some years back I was at a gun show and started watching folks wander the tables. These are people who generally have some level of familiarity with guns (that's why they invested some of their free time to attend a gun show, right?). One after another would walk up to a table, pick up a gun to examine/consider it, and almost without exception every one of them would immediately place their finger on the trigger. I asked one dealer I knew if I could cycle the slide of a Glock laying on his table and see what happens. Over and over people would pick it up with a full firing grip, and immediately pull the trigger. They had no idea if it was loaded, and I suspect, even whether the gun was cocked.

The Glock is a fine and safe choice if the user doesn't place their finger on the trigger until they are ready to shoot. Unlike a DA revolver or auto, which requires a good deal more effort, the trigger safety provides very little feedback that the gun is about to go bang.

*The above opinion does not necessarily reflect the view(s) of management and is worth at least twice what you paid for it.

[RufDog]

I think you can narrow it down to 2 choices

1 a wheel gun

2 DE 50AE

[bierman]

I did not go with a revolver for her as I think they are, at the end of the day, about equal in complexity to operate and a glock in 9mm is going to be easier to control from a recoil standpoint (and I think that having 16 rounds available is a good thing for someone who does not have a lot of training/living in FL where home invasions with multiple bad guys is not uncommon.)

Gonna have to respectfully disagree with you here.

Malfunction drill with semi auto: Why didn't it go bang?

I. Assess

A. No obvious reason

1. Tap, rack, re-assess.

B. Stovepipe

1. Remove stovepiped case

2. Tap, rack, re-assess

C. Double feed

1. Remove magazine

2. Cycle slide several times

3. Check to make sure everything is clear

4. Re-insert magazine

5. Rack, and re-assess

Malfunction drill with a revolver (barring a catastrophic failure of the gun itself) Why didn't it go bang?

I. Pull the trigger again.

I know, this is over-simplifying it, but you get the point.

I do agree with you on the recoil issue. A 357 magnum can be brutal to shoot, especially for an inexperienced shooter.

As far as having 16 rounds to deal with a potential home invasion with multiple suspects, if she really has NO training, 16 rounds probably aren't going to help very much. Again, its not about the tool, its about the person wielding the tool.

I do think its very cool that you are looking out for your mom that way.

Edited December 17, 2009 by bierman

[Duane Thomas]

I used to know a woman who was a very good, very prolific firearms instructor, and she taught mostly women. She told me once, "Duane, I have completely gotten away from recommending revolvers for women. I've just had too many female students who couldn't even pull the trigger on a revolver, double action, one time, much less do it smoothly enough to fire the gun accurately." As an instructor myself, I've seen the same phenomenon.

Can the OP's mom, who is probably a woman of some advanced years, manipulate a revolver's DA trigger well and smoothly? I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't. I would be AMAZED if she couldn't handle the trigger on a Glock.

The malfunction clearance drills put forth - no offense, and I mean that sincerely - are a gross overcomplication in the case of the auto pistol, and a gross oversimplification in the case of the revolver. A tap-rack-bang drill will, short of a double feed, clear out any immediately rectifiable malfunction you can have with an auto pistol. Despite how many people just seem to "know" that revolvers are more reliable than auto pistols, and that the immediate action drill is invariably "pull the trigger again, that'll solve the problem," I have actually experienced, proportionally, more revolver malfs than with with auto pistols. The big difference is that the average auto pistol malfunction can be cleared out in seconds using only the shooter's hands. The average revolver malfunction will tie the gun up so tight that not only is it not fireable, it takes tools and time to clear it out at all.

Yes, I know that a novice, non-dedicated shooter is not going to acquire the skills to do a tap-rack-bang drill. But nor is she doing to learn how to clear out a revolver either. As far as I'm concerned, this is a non-issue.

How important is all this "malfunction clearance" stuff, anyway, if our representatitve auto pistol is a Glock? As I sit here with a bit over 55k malfunction-free rounds through my Glocks 34 and 17, I am tempted to say, "Not very." (Well, except for those caused by worn and broken parts caused by a training regimen, and number of dry fires, and live rounds fired, that the average shooter couldnl't equal in 100 lifetimes, natch.) Granted that's with me behind the gun, and a new shooter might perform the dreaded "limp wristing" and cause the gun to short stroke. Will a Glock work for the OP's mother? Well, only one way to find out. Go to a pistol range that has a well-stocked rental case, and while you're having her try the trigger on a DA revolver, also have her fire a Glock 17 and see if it works for her.

[Flexmoney]

I just looked at the local gunshop flyer...

$279 buys a *NEW* Remington 870 Home Defense in 12gauge. 18.5in barrel, 7 -shot tube

If recoil a concern, then a youth model Remington 1100 in 20gauge.

A Ruger Revolver and a Glock 17 or G22 are fine choices.

** It needs to be reliable **

* The shooter needs to be comfortable with it. *

It you want them to shoot it a lot (which increases comfort and proves reliability), then cost of ammo comes in to play. Which makes 9mm or Shotgun (val-u-paks) more viable.

And...the debate could go on forever...with nobody being "wrong."

[Duane Thomas]

As an able-bodied man I don't particularly like firing a 12 gauge. (Actually, in the interests of total honesty, since I tore my rotator cuff about a year and half ago, my days of firing the big boomers are over - but I didn't enjoy it even when I wasn't playing injured.) And though I happen to think the Remington 1100 Youth Model in 20 gauge is an absolutely awesome shotgun, it's also a bit on the heavy recoil side for a (presumably) small-statured and not particularly young, non-gun person female. The people who say, "A 20 gauge has about half the recoil of a 12 gauge, are, in my opinion and experience, kidding themselves.

Yeah, if shooting enough to develop and maintain any sort of proficiency is a concern - and it is - the affordability of factory 9mm hardball is a very nice factor in the 9mm auto pistol's favor.

[iainmcphersn]

In the spirit of the forum, I'd highly recommend a used Glock 17 as his first competition pistol. It will serve as a good platform for USPSA Production or IDPA SSP.

They also make excellent home defense guns.

[kevin c]

The malfunction clearance drills put forth - no offense, and I mean that sincerely - are a gross overcomplication in the case of the auto pistol, and a gross oversimplification in the case of the revolver. A tap-rack-bang drill will, short of a double feed, clear out any immediately rectifiable malfunction you can have with an auto pistol. Despite how many people just seem to "know" that revolvers are more reliable than auto pistols, and that the immediate action drill is invariably "pull the trigger again, that'll solve the problem," I have actually experienced, proportionally, more revolver malfs than with with auto pistols. The big difference is that the average auto pistol malfunction can be cleared out in seconds using only the shooter's hands. The average revolver malfunction will tie the gun up so tight that not only is it not fireable, it takes tools and time to clear it out at all.

Yes, I know that a novice, non-dedicated shooter is not going to acquire the skills to do a tap-rack-bang drill. But nor is she doing to learn how to clear out a revolver either. As far as I'm concerned, this is a non-issue.

How important is all this "malfunction clearance" stuff, anyway, if our representatitve auto pistol is a Glock? As I sit here with a bit over 55k malfunction-free rounds through my Glocks 34 and 17, I am tempted to say, "Not very." (Well, except for those caused by worn and broken parts caused by a training regimen, and number of dry fires, and live rounds fired, that the average shooter couldnl't equal in 100 lifetimes, natch.) Granted that's with me behind the gun, and a new shooter might perform the dreaded "limp wristing" and cause the gun to short stroke. Will a Glock work for the OP's mother? Well, only one way to find out. Go to a pistol range that has a well-stocked rental case, and while you're having her try the trigger on a DA revolver, also have her fire a Glock 17 and see if it works for her.

As far as malfunction drills for Glocks go, there's also this, apparently being taught by Glock (see item #3):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...&hl=armorer

This is a variation of what Massad Ayoob teaches at LFI - for any auto pistol malfunction, reloading the gun with a fresh magazine deals with most of the likely common malfs. Not too hard to teach.

[CocoBolo]

With a budget of around $300 that narrows the choices a bit.

Since it is home defense and competition I would recommend the follow pistols in the order listed.

1. CZ 75B in 9 mm full size

2. Eaa Witness full size all metal in 9 mm

3. Bersa Thunder 9 mm (larger model not compact)

Any of these should be fairly easy to find used in that price range even in California.

Nothing is as easy to shoot as a heavy metal gun, absorbs recoil and flip. Sorry you can't clean it in the dish washer.

[Flexmoney]

The people who say, "A 20 gauge has about half the recoil of a 12 gauge, are, in my opinion and experience, kidding themselves.

Um...who said "half" ?

And though I happen to think the Remington 1100 Youth Model in 20 gauge is an absolutely awesome shotgun, it's also a bit on the heavy recoil side for a (presumably) small-statured and not particularly young, non-gun person female.

Our OP is not asking about a female, fwiw.

[Duane Thomas]

Um...who said "half" ?

Massad Ayoob. I have read several times in his books and articles over the years the statement, "Most people generally perceive a 20 gauge as having about half the recoil of a 12 gauge" or words to that effect.

Our OP is not asking about a female, fwiw.

Ooops. I stand corrected.

[G-ManBart]

Um...who said "half" ?

Massad Ayoob. I have read several times in his books and articles over the years the statement, "Most people generally perceive a 20 gauge as having about half the recoil of a 12 gauge" or words to that effect.

Our OP is not asking about a female, fwiw.

Ooops. I stand corrected.

20ga shotguns may not produce as much recoil, but that which they do, is often on the sharp side....a jab more than a shove. Part of that is the gun weight, and part is the cartridge. My wife wanted a shotgun in the house (bless her!) and we tried a whole bunch of different combos, but it came down to weight. So, I got her the one she handled well, a Charles Daly (can't recall the model offhand) youth model 20ga that has a 20" barrel. It shoots great!...but, it's a bit snappy with what I normally keep in it, which is usually #4 Buck. With slugs it's worse. I put one of the Dead Mule recoil systems in the stock and it's quite a bit less. My father bought me a 20ga double when I was about 10 or 12 and we learned that it had a bit of pop to it and was actually harder to shoot than 12ga loaded with light loads that recoiled less (think 1oz stuff). R,

[JohnGaultsGun]

I would recommend a glock. It seems to be a better handling weapon compared to a 7 pound, 3 foot long metal boom stick. Since this is in the context of self defense, slicing the pie with a mossberg 590 in a narrow hallway filled with fatal funnels is harder. Especially if you ever have to use a spare hand to open doors, hold a flashlight, or drag/carry someone.

In the basic pistol courses that I've run, I brought a variety of handguns for students to choose. Since most of my students are new to shooting, there are usually no preconceived ideas about what they will like. 4 times out of 5, the glock is selected because it's easier to use. Other guns I've had on the table were revolvers, 1911's, hi power, Ruger p85, taurus 38spl, and Ruger blackhawk. 1 of 5 was the 1911.

[TG9Pro]

Wheel gun in .357 mag., another set off the "police return" pistols. A noob should want to shoot it, and be able to shoot it affordably-in this case they can run .38s down the .357 tube. Become familiar with the ranges and training, and work their way up to the .357 Mag. ammo for self defense. Less than $400 on GB.com all day long. Show him/her the Jerry M. instructional vids @ S&W .com on form, range etiquette, etc..

[Boats]

At my house self defense means having something at hand in several places. Shop, Office, Bedroom, and near the Front door. I use S&W K Frames with an extra speedloader full of 38 spl + P and 2 D cell Mag light beside them. Family knows how to use them and they all work the same. Two that are stored out of our direct control and could be found by someone else are stored empty with a couple of HKS Speedloaders nearby.

Not what I shoot in matches or carry concealed but a good solution for home defense.

Boats

[chuckie]

You can get a 3" 12 ga. Rem 870 Express with a 7-rd mag for about $300. Put 6-shot in it, and you woudn't have to worry about your friend being a no-shooter or lawsuits from penetration.

That would give him time to learn how to work a handgun while he saves up some money.

That's what I did with my wife before she was Mrs. Chuckie.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Pump Shot-gun in 12 or 20 loaded with #4. Nothing says "I'm in deep doo-doo like the sound of a pump gun being racked." Even the dumbest bad guy knows that sound and gets the "I need to leave in a hurry trots." Backup is a revolver. Simple to use, and accurate at close range for the beginner. WW WB in 38 SP in cheap to practice with.

My $.02.

[flack jacket]

Thanks guys! I'll present all of these as options for my friend.

First things first is HSC required here in Kalifornia. Then we can select the appropriate tool.

[Duane Thomas]

"HSC"?

[JohnGaultsGun]

"HSC"?

Handgun Safety Certificate. Means we are safer with our guns in Kalif than anywhere else in the union.

[Duane Thomas]

Wow. Impressive.

[flack jacket]

D,

I know, I know.....

Have a peek on what the HSC entails....

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo.php

It's at least a start right?