Why not more "Freestyle" Stages

[Joe4d]

the round count deal would be a pain to keep up with,

The OP asked about freestlye, If most people would leave the shotgun at home then maybe we have just learned the shotgun isnt what it is cracked up to be.

Wouldnt be hard to design stages where a shotgun makes the most logical choice, but as long as safety isnt compromised dont make it a requirement.

[Sterling White]

Joe4d - Add a couple of steel clay flippers and slug targets....guess what....bring your shotgun!

Nik and Charles - You guys are sadistic funny! Give Trooper class a go at the Ironman if you would like to be restricted on the number of rounds you have for the entire match. Guys/gals who shoot in that class really have to manage their ammo.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Sterling White

[Nik Habicht]

Joe4d - Add a couple of steel clay flippers and slug targets....guess what....bring your shotgun!

Nik and Charles - You guys are sadistic funny! Give Trooper class a go at the Ironman if you would like to be restricted on the number of rounds you have for the entire match. Guys/gals who shoot in that class really have to manage their ammo.

Ya know, the move might be to use the shotgun on every stage --- shoot until empty and discard. I'm intrigued by the mental concept of such a match --- and I'd want to design stages that don't really favor one gun over the other. You wouldn't have enough ammo to get through on one or two guns, but you might only have to fire the third for a very few shots......

[MarkCO]

Add a couple of steel clay flippers and slug targets....guess what....bring your shotgun!

Yup! Moving targets, whether clays or paper "seem" to be easier for most to hit with a SG. Paper requiring 2 hits with Rifle/Pistol or one with a slug can tend to balance and offer choice at some distances. However, given the "choice" and not better benefit for SG, I will use pistol or rifle. On a multi-gun stage, I think a shotgun should be run empty and ditched or the last gun used. Reloading a shotgun when I have a rifle or pistol on me just does not make sense to me, but then that is why this is a game.

All that said, I really like choice stages, in all aspects. I'd certainly go to a match with a format where you had to shoot at least 6 rounds from each gun type on every stage, but other than that, it was all up to you to figure out. No stage description other than "Shoot all ## targets in any order, with any gun between X and Y, firing at least 6 rounds from each firearm." There would be some safety issues to explain on most stages, but not much. At Johnson, there were some very good choice stages and, at least on Stage 1, a LOT of different ways were tried. Clays with slugs...Oh Yeah!

As to the OP Question, I think most designers are evil and twisted and like to control the shooters and make them do odd things that challenge the shooters. I know I design that way many times: like weak shoulder shotgun and rifle. When the choices are offered, most revert to the easiest method, many times removing some of the intent of the design. A very well designed stage might balance out for the top shooters, but not the average shooter, or vice versa. I think the fact that we have such a wide array of skills/divisions tends to remove flat out choice stages in most matches. Making a stage that challenges the top shooters while being easy enough for the new, or less skilled shooter is difficult and many are not willing to try it. Adding choice makes ROing a little harder, stage design a lot harder and can introduce some safety issues that are better avoided. I've ROed several choice stages at both local and national level matches and I will guarantee you that the choice stages put a lot of shooters into panic mode and there is a definate increase in the pucker factor for the ROs. When you have a shooter with three guns lose all track of what is going on and what he/she is supposed to do next, that is not a good thing.

[busyhawk]

So why not let shooters choose what guns they use with the following restrictions:

Paper = Rifle, Slug, or Pistol

Steel 25 yards or less = Pistol or Shot

Steel 50 yards+ = Rifle or Slug

Clays = Shot

Sinistral,

Since I have ROd the Ironman several times and seen you shoot...nuf said

However, Reccomended is 100 yards for rifle steel unless you are a manufacture and have a unlimited supply of steel! MGM sells thier targets after the match at a steep discount and you don't see many buyers buying rifle targets that were placed less than 100 yards away:-) MGM makes some fine targets but you can't expect any targets to withstand the beating a 308 or even a 223 will do to a reactive steel target at 50 yards.

Steel targets shot with anything past 100 yards, between 35 and 100 yards shot with pistol or shotgun only and less than 35 yards with SG Shot or Pistol only. Now in saying this, doesn't this sound confusing and just a DQ trap? Now the real answer is to set the stage up that will limit the shooter to only several options and make it less confusing. What I am saying is have each stage different...no set rules (overall Match rules) describing which targets can be taken by what weapon system. The Johnson 3 gun is a perfect example of this! Don't let JJ or Denise read this:-)

Stationary clays could be shot by any weapon system but given the hangers of choice will only be the plastic hanging type, not the steel hangers for sure. Imagine shooting at a clay that is held up by an angle iron hanger with a pistol, rifle or slug...UGLY! Of course this will up the cost of the stage...MD choice. Flying clays are SG only for most ranges and safety for sure.

Paper...agreed!

Sinister, thank you for the start of the topic, good stuff!

Sincerely,

RLTW,

Scott

[SinistralRifleman]

Joe4d - Add a couple of steel clay flippers and slug targets....guess what....bring your shotgun!

Yes, you can make it beneficial to use with the types of targets presented. Flying clays would obviously have to be nothing but shotgun.

Nik and Charles - You guys are sadistic funny! Give Trooper class a go at the Ironman if you would like to be restricted on the number of rounds you have for the entire match. Guys/gals who shoot in that class really have to manage their ammo.

Bring it on, I need more competition! You guys aren't going to let me win Trooper there for a 3rd time in a row are you?

[kellyn]

This would likely just about kill off the shotgun except for aerial targets.

I'm not so much against this but it would require some real good stage design to keep it from turning into a rifle/carbine match (which I am not so much against either as we don't have enough of those!)

[springy]

To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun?

I think Charles is saying something different: Lets suppose that you have a match that requires 225 hits. What Charles is proposing is that every shooter will be told that they are limited to 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 100 rounds of pistol ammo and 100 rounds of shot to complete the match. The shooter is presented with stage problems, and it's up to the shooter to decide which platforms he will use on which stage. Once you exhaust your rifle ammo, that's it -- no more rifle for you....

He's not suggesting a rules change, just wondering if that type of match might be appealing to some....

Exactly.

How are you going to keep track of number of rounds fired? And are you going to count shots fired, or just hits? It should make for an interesting score sheet.

Edited November 25, 2009 by springy

[Nik Habicht]

To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun?

I think Charles is saying something different: Lets suppose that you have a match that requires 225 hits. What Charles is proposing is that every shooter will be told that they are limited to 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 100 rounds of pistol ammo and 100 rounds of shot to complete the match. The shooter is presented with stage problems, and it's up to the shooter to decide which platforms he will use on which stage. Once you exhaust your rifle ammo, that's it -- no more rifle for you....

He's not suggesting a rules change, just wondering if that type of match might be appealing to some....

Exactly.

How are you going to keep track of number of rounds fired? And are you going to count shots fired, or just hits? It should make for an interesting score sheet.

It would require one match official per squad to manage an ammo cart. Every shooter gets a bin, every shooter puts their ammo in their bin at check in. No extra ammo allowed -- violations incur a match dq. Load mags from your bin in the presence of the ammo officer. Place mags in bin. Retrieve prior to your attempt at a stage. Return mags to your bin afterwards, top off as desired. Rinse and repeat.....

Or you could use the honor system.....

How do they handle trooper class at the ironman?

[D.Hayden]

If you limited the rounds carried.. for rounds left over, you should get points..

[Nik Habicht]

If you limited the rounds carried.. for rounds left over, you should get points..

Nah.....

....but you could play $1 a round leftover in a pool. Everyone puts in $1 for every round permitted in excess of the total # of hits, everyone gets back $1 per round left over at the end of the match. Person with the highest number of rounds left over takes the pot, or you could split it out 50, 30, 20, depending how many participants you get....

Anyone who dqs or needs to withdraw would forfeit a portion of their buy-in, but not the entirety.....

[bigbrowndog]

seems to me the person with the DQ might have the most extra rounds to turn in???????????????????? that opens up the contest to true gamers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

How do they handle trooper class at the ironman?

All troopers are squadded together so we can make sure no one breaks the rules intentionally or unintentionally. Honestly unintentionally (someone not thinking about it and accepting food from another competitor is a prime example) is more of a concern, because the type of people who decide to do trooper want to do it for real; finishing in that division honestly at Ironman is an accomplishment in itself.

If we do catch you intentionally cheating, we will lock you in the port-a-john and throw a CS grenade down the air vent. No, I'm not joking.

Our ammo count is limited only by what we can carry and what fits in the cache can (cache can for Ironman only). I generally take enough ammo to shoot the match twice at least. My initial load out is 140 pounds total.

Edited November 26, 2009 by SinistralRifleman

[Sterling White]

It would require one match official per squad to manage an ammo cart. Every shooter gets a bin, every shooter puts their ammo in their bin at check in. No extra ammo allowed -- violations incur a match dq. Load mags from your bin in the presence of the ammo officer. Place mags in bin. Retrieve prior to your attempt at a stage. Return mags to your bin afterwards, top off as desired. Rinse and repeat.....

IT IS A BAD IDEA! I'm not sure how this even applies to the thread title....?

How do they handle trooper class at the ironman?

http://www.mgmtargets.com/ironman/trooper_rules.php

Edited November 26, 2009 by Sterling White

[calishootr]

here the locals play a game called 'chinese trap' where you shoot trap targets from the skeet field positions, 1 shot, 1 hit, you move tothe next station, by the last station you have to break thetarget AND get a chip as well, winner is the one with the most remaining shells, ie.. the most accurate shooter....to date i have not seen one person come to play that game with 25 shells....limited ammo and having ammo 'police' guarding the ammo bins???? please its hard enuff being squadded with a pack of newbies and making surethey are onthe right track let alone figure out who is using up more ammo than they brung.....

that being said, i like the idea...justthink it has waaaaaay too many holes in it....you know ipsc shooters and their collective creedo.....'didnt say i couldnt'

[dcloudy777]

Just kinda thinking out loud here, but you could require a certain number of rounds for a stage. For instance, in a 24-round minimum stage each shooter will be required to fire 14 birdshot, 10 rifle and 10 pistol. You can just chuck 'em into the berm if you wanted, but I would think hitting targets with them would be faster.

DanO

[Charles Bond]

It is about being adaptable and flexible. Maybe we have become too rooted in go to position one and do ______ then move to postion two, etc. While we have pretty much eliminated static shooting postions from the old days to what we call free style, it is not as much of a free style forumula as what Nik and I are talking about. We put up a stage and just say have it your way. Just image a jungle walk like this. Am I the only one who watched the sniper competiton on Outdoor Channel?

BTW clay birds make fine pistol or rilfe targets especially if you use wooden backers. Of course you will destroy the backers over the course of a match and have to replace them during the match but not only can it be done, it can be done well and is far less expensive then shooting up reactive steel with rifle rounds.

[bigbrowndog]

I personally would like to see shooters be able to engage targets with another gun should the one intended for the purpose become disabled. Ex: rifle goes down, engage remaining rifle targets with pistol/shotgun to lessen penalties for lack of engagement. The main issue I see here is, same could be done for pistol and SG targets except for the potential of the replacement gun to damage the targets or target holders, which could actually be counterproductive.

perhaps only the paper targets could receive this consideration, and then if engaged with the SG, only slugs would suffice for neutralization.

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

For targets we have used clay 'Rabbits' suspended by a pincher clothes pin and a length of 1/8" cord. Put up a horizontal board put screws into the borad spaced about 12-18" and hang a "V" of cord down about 24", clip the 'Rabbit" or a "Bateau"with a clothes pin.

We use this for rifle at 10-50 yards and I suppose we could use them for pistol as well. SG would also work at longer distances as too close will wipe out the clothes pins and cords.

This can allow for using a different weapon platform than designated. Only problem I see is that we would need to mandate the primary platform and a criteria where using a different platform would be acceptable. In a close stage many people might just opt for pistol and never fire the carbine. (Or visa-versa).

Jim

[Charles Bond]

I personally would like to see shooters be able to engage targets with another gun should the one intended for the purpose become disabled. Ex: rifle goes down, engage remaining rifle targets with pistol/shotgun to lessen penalties for lack of engagement. The main issue I see here is, same could be done for pistol and SG targets except for the potential of the replacement gun to damage the targets or target holders, which could actually be counterproductive.

perhaps only the paper targets could receive this consideration, and then if engaged with the SG, only slugs would suffice for neutralization.

Trapr

I can endorse that concept. The reality is that this idea works well with 2 guns since that is really about all you can carry on a stage since if it is going to be all 3 guns, you are going to have the limitation of either staging a gun or ditching a gun so you can continue within the stage with the other two. So if your rifle becomes disabled near the end of the stage and you need that shotgun you grounded at start of the stage, you have no real remedy. For this to work, would we not need to design stages that except at the beginning of the stage, target arrays would able to be engaged by a gun which we know the shooter will have which would be a pistol?

[bigbrowndog]

I would not alter stage design, because you cannot guarantee which gun would be used or which option the shooter would take.

just make it so the shooter decides based on safety and target/prop damage. Stage 3 at FB, if your rifle went down you could safely engage the rifle paper wth your pistol, however if your pistol went down and you safely retrieved your rifle you could only engage pistol paper becasue the pistol steel would be damaged or the act unsafe.

Stage 9, you could safely engage the rifle steel with your pistol as well as the rifle paper, however the pistol steel with your rifle would be unsafe or damaging.

Personally this option should ONLY be available on multigun stages, and not allow the shooter to change guns on a single gun stage, simply because they feel thier SG would be better suited or the pistol better, this could allow the MD to enforce use of all three guns in a match.

Trying to accomplish this AND keep scoring straight with our current crop of shooting divisions and major /minor scoring, IMO would be a logistical nightmare, they are great ideas though!!!!!

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

HF scoring, everything Major, set steel moderately heavy, maybe a 45 PF? Want to shoot 9mm? OK go ahead, but don't bring out your 125.1 loads.

In HM, we can enforce true major, .30 cal , .45 and Pump 12 ga.

Makes for easy scoring and when you consider that many matches use time plus and no real PF, it works, it also allows for use of StageScore and Palms which is really fast.

You can mandate a weapon platform to start with and only allow non-scheduled transitions for platform failures. We jut write it in to the WSB when we allow engagement with alternate system. We simply state what targets you can't engage regardless of problem. You cannot switch to pistol on the SG course if your SG packs in, Sure you MIGHT be OK on the poppers that launch the flyers, but there are very few plaes left where one can shoot clay birds in the air with a pistol!

Now, if you simply allow a choice of weapon platform, you better have some real long distance shots or no one is going to use a carbine.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, it won't work with paper and minor calibers, or nonSG frangible targets. you'd wind up with lots of issues.

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Jim, it won't work with paper and minor calibers, or nonSG frangible targets. you'd wind up with lots of issues.

Trapr

Sorry Trapr. I am much more interested how it can work.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles I just don't see how it can, not that I wish it wouldn't!!!!

Trapr