Why not more "Freestyle" Stages

[SinistralRifleman]

Why don't we see more stages that leave it up to the shooter as to what gun they want to use to solve the problem? Ironman has multiple stages that allow the shooter to use Pistol or Rifle on paper, Shotgun or Pistol on close steel; It allows for more creative solutions to the stage and/or a shooter to play to their strengths.

So why not let shooters choose what guns they use with the following restrictions:

Paper = Rifle, Slug, or Pistol

Steel 25 yards or less = Pistol or Shot

Steel 50 yards+ = Rifle or Slug

Clays = Shot

You could force shooters to use all of their guns at least some of the time by the targets presented on a stage.

[J-Ho]

+1 That what I liked about the Johnson 3gun match. there were always several stages that gave the choice of which gun to use.

I really like the idea. It is another thing to think about during the match. More choices!

[Joe4d]

unless it is a safety issue why limit clay to shot only and why not allow 50 yard steel to be shot at with a pistol ?

[SinistralRifleman]

unless it is a safety issue why limit clay to shot only and why not allow 50 yard steel to be shot at with a pistol ?

That would be stage dependent I suppose. I figured clays would be good as shot only for 2 reasons; coming off pigeon flippers no one would shoot up into the air with anything else, secondly force people to use shotgun for at least a few targets.

[outerlimits]

we've shot stationary clays with rifles as well...they are a pain beyond 50 yds.

[davecutts]

we've shot stationary clays with rifles as well...they are a pain beyond 50 yds.

What? If I had a choice I'd shoot almost everything out to fifty with a pistol, even that clay.

[Sterling White]

Why don't we see more stages

List of possible excuses, including:

1) the stage designer has limited experience and/or applied creativity; or

2) the stage designer has not shot one of the bigger matches that you referenced; or

3) shooters with knowledge are not willing to sit down and help the stage design crew!

[D.Hayden]

I really like stages where it's up to you.

IronMan does the most of these.. even there, I'd like to see more shooters choice....

The way people run the stages is cool to watch.

[outerlimits]

we've shot stationary clays with rifles as well...they are a pain beyond 50 yds.

What? If I had a choice I'd shoot almost everything out to fifty with a pistol, even that clay.

well dave, you the man! but i suggest it's quicker with a rifle-assuming it's supported.

[outerlimits]

I really like stages where it's up to you.

IronMan does the most of these.. even there, I'd like to see more shooters choice....

The way people run the stages is cool to watch.

hey dave-at this weekend's 3 gun match, i'll let you engage the 380 yd flasher with birdshot. rifle ammo is so expensive to make anyway.

Edited November 24, 2009 by outerlimits

[Bryan 45]

I really like that idea; I'd never have to shoot a slug again! We had a great stage at the BRM3G that allowed for shooter's choice of shotgun or pistol on steel plates spaced through-out the woods. Most people on our squad left their pistol in the holster.

[Jim Norman]

If you have distance, then allowing choice is OK as stages with 75yard and over paper will likely get rifle, but anything in close, 2 or less will definitely go pistol. We do use clays with rifle, 15 yards and out. Get 'rabbits' and hang them with a clothes pin. they are about 4inches in diameter.

Obviously flipped birds can't be shot with rifle or pistol in most places any of us are ever going to get to shoot.

If we allow the shooter to choose what gun he'll use, in many cases they will take pistol much of the time. Remember we aren't talking stopping power here, just holes in paper. Part of what we try to do with our matches is to force people out of their comfort zones.

Jim

[ERIC]

I like the idea. In fact, I recommended it to a local match director a few years back and he set up a stage like that the following month and it was a blast.

[SinistralRifleman]

Weird that some of you would take a pistol. I'll always use a rifle given the opportunity; particularly if scoring is accuracy based. Head shots only past 10 yards, definitely rifle. More than 10 targets; again definitely rifle due to capacity. Any kind of physical stress to get heart rate up before shooting; again definitely rifle. If given the opportunity the only time I'd use a pistol at a match would be when either my shotgun or rifle had been shot empty and use it for an immediate transition.

If you want to force people to use both guns, just have the stage description say "The shooter will fire at least one round from both pistol and rifle at a target before the end of the stage"

[Charles Bond]

I like this concept. To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun? Of course you would have to allow some restock in the case of a reshoot.

[mlmiller1]

If we want(I'm not saying we do) to have a balanced match, you almost have to force folks to shoot the shotgun. Most shooters will shoot it the minimum amount required. That is probably due to the slow reloads or maybe the fact some people just don't like shooting it.

I like having lots of options on what to shoot & when but really, most everyone will do the absolute minimum with the shotgun & either use the pistol or rifle as much as possible. Is that good? Well, maybe, but back to the balance thing.

I like working on where I am weakest. Well, ok, I can find plenty to work on but bringing my shotgun skills up to the level of my other skills would be a good thing but in a match, given the choice, I would shoot the other guns as much as possible. Wouldn't you?

This really complicates setting up stages when you know you want it balanced but giving too many options just lets people shoot anything but the shotgun. Guess this speaks of my inexperience but it seems to be true. The only way I can find to balance things would be to give "rewards" for the shotgun. Perhaps line up some knock downs so you can double up with one birdshot if you know your patterns or maybe one slug hole is a full score or two pistol/rifle hits per target to get the same score. Anyone got any real way to motivate people to use the shotgun when given a choice?

MLM

[Sterling White]

To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun?

Charles - I have to graciously disagree with this idea in 3 gun. The number of rounds that I take to a match should not be determined by the match director. What I the shooter should be worried about is ammunition management during the match. For example, if the stage has a large number of steel, steel clay flippers, and slug targets then its up to me to engage the appropriate targets with the appropriate round. It's to my benefit to do this in the least number of rounds and in the most efficient manner. Trap, skeet, and sporting clays lend themselves to limited round counts.

[SinistralRifleman]

Anyone got any real way to motivate people to use the shotgun when given a choice?

MLM

I really see nothing wrong with people shooting their shotguns empty and switching to handguns. I however would use my Saiga-12 as much as possible on any given stage. I have used it in lieu of pistol on A LOT of targets at Ironman the past 2 years on the freestyle stages. The reward is that a shotgun hit is almost a certainty in making a target go down in one shot; where a pistol may take several because of the nature of the targets or the physical fatigue at that point in the stage.

Edited November 25, 2009 by SinistralRifleman

[mlmiller1]

Good point. I "wish" for a balanced match, though, more or less equal rds fired through each gun. Trying to even get close to that is pretty tough without specifying this gun for those, that gun for these, etc.

You do have a good point on the certainty on the target going down in one shot. If you put the target out where it is hard to shoot with a pistol, the certainty goes way down on the shotgun, though.

At the ironman, no one can count that high on round count so nobody knows how many rounds they shoot to know if it is balanced or not. (that is a joke, please don't anyone take offense). I know I'm not tough enough to shoot the ironman match.

MLM

[Sterling White]

At the RM3G match this year we had the opportunity to shoot a stage loaded with paper, steel, and clays. The question was...do I shoot steel with the pistol or shotgun - which will be faster, capacity of the pistol v. one shot one hit with the sg. Paper was engaged with the pistol and clays with the sg. Shooters who had really good reloading skills with the shotgun or open shotguns took that route. It was interesting to sit back and watch, then compare times. The steel was set out at distances that would challenge the average pistolero.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Sterling White

[Nik Habicht]

Weird that some of you would take a pistol. I'll always use a rifle given the opportunity; particularly if scoring is accuracy based. Head shots only past 10 yards, definitely rifle. More than 10 targets; again definitely rifle due to capacity. Any kind of physical stress to get heart rate up before shooting; again definitely rifle. If given the opportunity the only time I'd use a pistol at a match would be when either my shotgun or rifle had been shot empty and use it for an immediate transition.

Probably depends on the stage and the relative experience level a given shooter has with both platforms. I've had the opportunity to run some stages with both pistol and rifle --- and my pistol runs are generally faster (with a higher hit factor) than my rifle runs. On the other hand it's extremely likely that I shoot a portion of the stage (targets at/beyond 20, head shots) faster and more accurately with a rifle.....

[Nik Habicht]

To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun?

Charles - I have to graciously disagree with this idea in 3 gun. The number of rounds that I take to a match should not be determined by the match director. What I the shooter should be worried about is ammunition management during the match. For example, if the stage has a large number of steel, steel clay flippers, and slug targets then its up to me to engage the appropriate targets with the appropriate round. It's to my benefit to do this in the least number of rounds and in the most efficient manner. Trap, skeet, and sporting clays lend themselves to limited round counts.

I think Charles is saying something different: Lets suppose that you have a match that requires 225 hits. What Charles is proposing is that every shooter will be told that they are limited to 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 100 rounds of pistol ammo and 100 rounds of shot to complete the match. The shooter is presented with stage problems, and it's up to the shooter to decide which platforms he will use on which stage. Once you exhaust your rifle ammo, that's it -- no more rifle for you....

Obviously hoser stages with wide open cardboard would favor the pistol, clays and longish steel the shotgun, and long range targets the rifle. But the trick would be to problem solve the big picture.....

He's not suggesting a rules change, just wondering if that type of match might be appealing to some....

[Joe4d]

In order to have "Freestyle" you cant concern your self with balance or forcing anything, that in itself eliminates freestyle, creat stages with things like stationary clays, medium distance steel, close noshoots, basically stages with targets that can be safely engaged with two or three weapons, dont worry about which one makes since or not, let the shooters shoot it' "Freestyle"

[mlmiller1]

In order to have "Freestyle" you cant concern your self with balance or forcing anything, that in itself eliminates freestyle, creat stages with things like stationary clays, medium distance steel, close noshoots, basically stages with targets that can be safely engaged with two or three weapons, dont worry about which one makes since or not, let the shooters shoot it' "Freestyle"

You know, that sounds really good. Not picking on you or flaming you but in my opinion most folks will leave their shotguns at home, though, if not "prompted" to use them. That or they will shoot it empty & never reload under time. If a person wants a pistol/rifle match he needs to have that & not even call it a multi gun match. Just skip the shotgun. This is fine, if that is what you want.

I play this game for fun but I like to be challenged to get better in all the skills(yes, I have plenty of room to improve) but my desire to do well on the scores quite often overrides my desire to improve skills. If you don't need a skill, you won't work on it, you won't use it in a match especially if not prompted to do so.

All this discussion has made me think, though, & given me some great ideas, I hope.

HMMM, thinking, thinking, thinking,

MLM

[Charles Bond]

To tweek it further what if you had to do the entire match with a limited number of rounds for each gun?

Charles - I have to graciously disagree with this idea in 3 gun. The number of rounds that I take to a match should not be determined by the match director. What I the shooter should be worried about is ammunition management during the match. For example, if the stage has a large number of steel, steel clay flippers, and slug targets then its up to me to engage the appropriate targets with the appropriate round. It's to my benefit to do this in the least number of rounds and in the most efficient manner. Trap, skeet, and sporting clays lend themselves to limited round counts.

I think Charles is saying something different: Lets suppose that you have a match that requires 225 hits. What Charles is proposing is that every shooter will be told that they are limited to 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 100 rounds of pistol ammo and 100 rounds of shot to complete the match. The shooter is presented with stage problems, and it's up to the shooter to decide which platforms he will use on which stage. Once you exhaust your rifle ammo, that's it -- no more rifle for you....

Obviously hoser stages with wide open cardboard would favor the pistol, clays and longish steel the shotgun, and long range targets the rifle. But the trick would be to problem solve the big picture.....

He's not suggesting a rules change, just wondering if that type of match might be appealing to some....

Exactly.