What USPSA multigun rules are unneeded?

[00bullitt]

Trapr....as a word of encouragement....please don't bow out yet. You and Kurt make more sense to me(and most of us for that matter)about this sport than anyone I have yet to talk to since I've started playing this game. Just please don't let negative emotion cloud your judgement. People hear what you guys say. Sometimes the instant gratification of change isn't there. But I do believe you guys are being heard.

[Charles Bond]

I'm tired of most all of this crap, and trying to get people to see how things can be improved. Charles you can probably determine from this topic post alone how and why USPSA matches do not and will not measure up to the so called outlaw matches, people give you advice they were asked to give and you say, BS, or Oh no we can't do that.

BTW, who had the first Major 3 gun/multigun match...................USPSA or someone else??????????

Trapr the outlaw matches (your term not mine) have no unity of rules, scoring or targets. They are not even consistent with how they award prizes. What does USPSA have over all of these "other" matches? The answer is that, the entire process is written down and the match is put on by elected reprrsentatives who on just about every decision weigh what is best for shooters, ros, clubs, the oganization and the industry from which we derive our support. That involves some compromises that a match run by a local entity does not have to make.

On the flip side, the non USPSA matches are all attendance driven and to succeed, the MD has to react to the needs of the attendees. In that regard they are always going to be more responsive and faster to change than an orgainzation that only has BOD meeting 2x a year. These other matches are also for the most part regional in scope and concern so it is a lot easier for the folks in CO to accept the rules of a match shot only there than it is for shooters in PA to swallow a set of rules that will not work on their home range. That of course does not mean a GA shooter can not enjoy both the match in CO as well as the one in PA.

A sterling example of "differences" is the BR3G. Andy puts on an excellent match and he has his unique way of doing things and that is venue driven. The notiion that you could run an identical match in FL or OK would be foolish since the open country with backstops that can work in the mountains would be a lawsuit waiting to happen in flat country. Since BR3G and Ft Benning fill without offering long range steel targets of a minimum size certainly does not mean that the USPSA nationals will fill if they mandate target sizes of 4 moa or greater.

You have made way too large of an impact on this sport than to just take your marbles and go home. Having said that, if there is one thing I have learned during my time on the BOD it is just becasue something works well in my neck of the woods does not mean it is going to get off the start line in CA.

On the equipment rules, I am not ready to saddle the members or the clubs with new costs of changing weapons or targets absent a convincing theory that USPSA will be better for it in the long term. If I am viewed as closed minded because of it, I am willing to bear that guilt.

[00bullitt]

There is one huge factor that draws large attendance at the outlaw multigun matches ........................

wait for it........................

wait for it................................

ITS THE PRIZE TABLE

[ken hebert]

Trapr the outlaw matches (your term not mine) have no unity of rules, scoring or targets. They are not even consistent with how they award prizes. What does USPSA have over all of these "other" matches? The answer is that, the entire process is written down and the match is put on by elected reprrsentatives who on just about every decision weigh what is best for shooters, ros, clubs, the oganization and the industry from which we derive our support. That involves some compromises that a match run by a local entity does not have to make.

On the flip side, the non USPSA matches are all attendance driven and to succeed, the MD has to react to the needs of the attendees. In that regard they are always going to be more responsive and faster to change than an orgainzation that only has BOD meeting 2x a year. These other matches are also for the most part regional in scope and concern so it is a lot easier for the folks in CO to accept the rules of a match shot only there than it is for shooters in PA to swallow a set of rules that will not work on their home range. That of course does not mean a GA shooter can not enjoy both the match in CO as well as the one in PA.

A sterling example of "differences" is the BR3G. Andy puts on an excellent match and he has his unique way of doing things and that is venue driven. The notiion that you could run an identical match in FL or OK would be foolish since the open country with backstops that can work in the mountains would be a lawsuit waiting to happen in flat country. Since BR3G and Ft Benning fill without offering long range steel targets of a minimum size certainly does not mean that the USPSA nationals will fill if they mandate target sizes of 4 moa or greater.

You have made way too large of an impact on this sport than to just take your marbles and go home. Having said that, if there is one thing I have learned during my time on the BOD it is just becasue something works well in my neck of the woods does not mean it is going to get off the start line in CA.

On the equipment rules, I am not ready to saddle the members or the clubs with new costs of changing weapons or targets absent a convincing theory that USPSA will be better for it in the long term. If I am viewed as closed minded because of it, I am willing to bear that guilt.

To sum it up:

USPSA's elected officials decide what shooters want in a match, and then they get 130-ish of them show up for NATIONALS. RM3G/Ironman/BR3G/SMM3G/Larue listens to what shooters want and act accordingly and they fill up.

Ironically, I'm seeing a parallel between USPSA and our own current government in your statement...

[Charles Bond]

Ken, Trapr, Kurt

USPSA has to search far and wide for match directors each year for our multigun match. Any of the 3 of you could do it and do it well.

If we were not interested in doing a better job with our nationals and multigun rules, we would not be asking for advice in this forum.

I with Todd that the prize table drives the entries. I also believe the unique nature of experiences like Ft Benning and Blue Ridge are just as important. For 2009 many shooters had been to Vegas but everyone wanted to see what AMU would pull out of the hat. In a tight economic year, USPSA is the loser for it.

[kurtm]

For the last 2 years Trapr and I have been told time and time and time and time again, that there is just no way to make targets visible to all in the constraints of "how we are doing it right now". The problem is non visible targets are killing Iron sight division. The less shooters the worse the prize table and so it spirals downward. The very frustrating thing is that IT DIDN'T USED TO BE THIS WAY!!! 3 years ago almost all major matches painted between squads and Irons shot first. No big thing. Hell even way back in the dark ages of 3-gun SOF painted and RESET falling targets.

Overseas they do this ALL THE TIME and yet for the last 2 years it is IMPOSSIBLE in the U.S.

In stumping for visibility we have been called whiners, complainers, and heretics. So be it, and then this thread was started, and when ideas were thrown out...once again... we are told and scolded yet again as to why the size, reaction, paint just can't be done, and you wonder why we say pound sand?

Lets quit dancing about...it ain't the rules of this and that, USPSA's rules are just fine for the most part....it is how they are applied, and who is applying them...ie "I watched an R.O. stalk a shooter to the preload table to D.Q . them for mistaking it for a safety table". MOST R.O.s of the august NROI DON'T 3-GUN so courses designed by them ARE PISTOL driven! Last time I was vocal about bad R.O.s I got to sit on the side lines, but a good change came of it.

Why don't we paint targets anymore?? Why is it impossible?? I can tell you why, it is hard for Match director to come up with enough help to just run the darn stages let alone run down range and paint. why?? well if you have R.O.ed some of the big matches you know why! It is a very hardy breed that does this more than once or twice, so the turn over is great. All I will say is don't yell at the volunteer help and make stages short enough distance wise to not KILL your R.O.s.

Then we get a lot of...well if you don't like it do your own match......well right now I help produce two major matches...soon to be 3... darn you Sam! and R.O. one other major match....what the heck are YOU doing??

Do you all wonder WHY we came up with the 4 M.O.A. Target?? It is the size of target that can be seen at the range it is placed at WITH OUT PAINT!!!!...but now I am informed that that just can't be done!

The other KILLER to stage design and implementation is NOT having people of varying skills shoot them in BEFORE anyone shoots them for score. Way too many times I have seen a real big problem and pointed it out only to be told....well the R.O.s already shot it so we can't change it! You see the R.O.s were the first to shoot the stage, and since they are shooting for score we can't change it. When we did RM3G we never shot the match and always had the 3 different levels shoot it in!!!

Yep I am a whiner stuck in the past, Long ago ( 2 short years) it was better back then...but heck all the old guys say that. They also say pound sand...I quit, kind of like Trapr said and he isn't getting any younger!

Thought of the month...why are we asking our carbines to be sniper rifles? Heck even the Military has Designated Markman rifles which aren't issued to everyone.

NOTE: new tag line about the paint!

[TonyH]

There is one huge factor that draws large attendance at the outlaw multigun matches ........................

wait for it........................

wait for it................................

ITS THE PRIZE TABLE

TA DA

[TonyH]

Trapr the outlaw matches (your term not mine) have no unity of rules, scoring or targets. They are not even consistent with how they award prizes. What does USPSA have over all of these "other" matches? The answer is that, the entire process is written down and the match is put on by elected reprrsentatives who on just about every decision weigh what is best for shooters, ros, clubs, the oganization and the industry from which we derive our support. That involves some compromises that a match run by a local entity does not have to make.

On the flip side, the non USPSA matches are all attendance driven and to succeed, the MD has to react to the needs of the attendees. In that regard they are always going to be more responsive and faster to change than an orgainzation that only has BOD meeting 2x a year. These other matches are also for the most part regional in scope and concern so it is a lot easier for the folks in CO to accept the rules of a match shot only there than it is for shooters in PA to swallow a set of rules that will not work on their home range. That of course does not mean a GA shooter can not enjoy both the match in CO as well as the one in PA.

A sterling example of "differences" is the BR3G. Andy puts on an excellent match and he has his unique way of doing things and that is venue driven. The notiion that you could run an identical match in FL or OK would be foolish since the open country with backstops that can work in the mountains would be a lawsuit waiting to happen in flat country. Since BR3G and Ft Benning fill without offering long range steel targets of a minimum size certainly does not mean that the USPSA nationals will fill if they mandate target sizes of 4 moa or greater.

You have made way too large of an impact on this sport than to just take your marbles and go home. Having said that, if there is one thing I have learned during my time on the BOD it is just becasue something works well in my neck of the woods does not mean it is going to get off the start line in CA.

On the equipment rules, I am not ready to saddle the members or the clubs with new costs of changing weapons or targets absent a convincing theory that USPSA will be better for it in the long term. If I am viewed as closed minded because of it, I am willing to bear that guilt.

To sum it up:

USPSA's elected officials decide what shooters want in a match, and then they get 130-ish of them show up for NATIONALS. RM3G/Ironman/BR3G/SMM3G/Larue listens to what shooters want and act accordingly and they fill up.

Ironically, I'm seeing a parallel between USPSA and our own current government in your statement...

WOW, good analogy Ken, does kind of sum it up unfortunately.

135 shooters at a Nationals, that had months of sign up available, moved back out west where there was suppose to be more participation, good stages, good people running it, economy in the tank but all other matches filling up. Yet 72 competitors show up for the Ark. STATE multi-gun, 93 competitors show up at Area 6 multi gun.(Great Match put on by both of them), Area 8 cancelled their USPSA multi gun match & ran just a non USPSA match, due to stages being not approved by USPSA. Just an observation but it appears USPSA Multi Gun Nationals needs to look & ask at what these match directors are doing to attract a good number of shooters to State, Area & non USPSA matches.

[Chuck Anderson]

Speaking as a competitor. I think USPSA Multi gun is pretty much done. Whether it's the rules the ro's or some other intangible we're not fillng matches. People are perpetually pissed off and bitching about the matches after thy are done (not saying the bitching was bad or undeserved). I seriuosly think USPSA needs to take a look at dumping the current rule set and adopting IMGA rules. The precedent is there with Steel Challenge to have a disciplne than doesn't strictly adhere to DVC or the rest of the rules. Don't market it as USPSA. This would be easier to swallow for sponsors than giving to the 4th USPSA Nationals of the year. There are a lot more reasons but think about it.

[Charles Bond]

Speaking as a competitor. I think USPSA Multi gun is pretty much done. Whether it's the rules the ro's or some other intangible we're not fillng matches. People are perpetually pissed off and bitching about the matches after thy are done (not saying the bitching was bad or undeserved). I seriuosly think USPSA needs to take a look at dumping the current rule set and adopting IMGA rules. The precedent is there with Steel Challenge to have a disciplne than doesn't strictly adhere to DVC or the rest of the rules. Don't market it as USPSA. This would be easier to swallow for sponsors than giving to the 4th USPSA Nationals of the year. There are a lot more reasons but think about it.

I will agree with Chuck. Regardless of the reason, USPSA's best year in terms of attendance at a multigun match was the first year or two and attendance has been so off in successive years that we really need to ask ourselves whether or not it is proper for us to continue to commit the resources of the organization to a major match that has just not gained traction for reasons expressed on this forum and others. USPSA started multigun out of a desire to attract multigun shooters to USPSA. If anything, we have done the opposite.

There is no question that there is a host of quality multigun matches so it is not like anyone is being underserved. USPSA was also late to table with their product since as noted earlier, there are a host of these matches that have been around much longer than the USPSA Multigun. USPSA was successful in offering standard 3 gun matches and if we are going to stay in anything other than the pistol game, perhaps it is to there we need to return or USPSA needs to ramp up rifle only or shotgun only matches.

We might have more success with IMGA rules as Chuck suggests but what I have mostly heard on this thread and others is that the rules are not the main problem. As noted often on this thread and others, and I have certainly heard about it in emails and conversations, there seems to be a problem with "attitude" and that is well expressed in Kurt's last post about the RO and Trapr talking about someone setting up 3 gun stages who has a pistol background. These are matters that trouble me and they are not easily overcome. What is central is match reptutation and if we can not appeal to shooters like Ken and Kurt and Trapr, we really need to ask ourselves why are we even trying.

In sum USPSA can not be about a single match or members with only a specific interest since the membership of the organization is diverse. it is really about how we should allocate USPSA resources. Is it better to continue to try and establish USPSA in multigun or would it be smarter to commit the resouces we have been using there to areas where we seeing success such as steel challenge, scholastic shooting, or another venture entirely? If multigun shooters do not see value in USPSA being involved in multigun and if there are not enough USPSA members interested in multigun to even fill the national match, the answer seems pretty clear to me what is necessary.

[ShooterSteve]

Chuck summed it up pretty simply...go to the IMGA system. Keep the USPSA safety rules as they are mostly used anyway. Paint the steel, make stages true three gun stages. A nice prize table is a good bonus Let's go shoot.

[Blockhead]

I'd like to see some relief from (or perhaps a better definition of) the "freestyle" requirements as they relate to a practical LR rifle stage. It's not unusual for the independant 3G matches to have stages that require us to engage specific targets from specific locations or shooting positions. Some clarification would eliminate the perceived need for unecesary fault lines, walls and vision barriers to prevent engagement from the areas other than those define "positions" ie: back up the hill 30 yd.s to a spot where you can see all of the targets and drop prone. There was concern at this year's MG Nat'ls that a stage or 2 might be arbitrated on this basis.

I kinda like Trapr's 4 MOA idea but I'm not looking fwd. to pricing 12-16" skins for our R&R and MGM flashers for 300-400 yd. shots. Currently, our largest target is 10" (max. range would be 250 yd.s ?).

IMHO the max. range for a flash target should be 200 yd.s everything from there out should fall to score.

It also seems that some of us are trying to gather feedback as a means of improving USPSA's ability to produce a viable National Championship. As one of the folks that just finished several months of bust'n our asses in that effort, I'm disapointed that some (who didn't make it to the match) seem to want to throw it all out the window.

As much as I enjoy shooting the IMGA events, I don't see any way a "Nat'l Championship" will come out of the Independant Matches. I believe USPSA has the best chance to make that happen. Sure, we still need to get better. But let's not give up.

[00bullitt]

We shot the Kentucky State Multigun match earlier this year under "Provisional" USPSA Multigun rules. I thought it worked pretty nicely and was on the track to standardizing a scoring system and rule set similar to the IMGA matches.

We had no power factor except for HM and it took one A or two hits anywhere to neutralize. If USPSA can operate like that....its obviously not to much harder to streamline it more like the outlaws?

Whats up with that?

[davecutts]

While there may have been other problems with the Larue's at this years Multi gun Nationals, they could be seen easly withthe naked eye.

[kgunz11]

Hmmm... reading all of this makes me wish there were local guys experienced enough in running a 3Gun match to use the facilities we have available to us in Alabama. Each year we have a $30,000.00 prize table for our precision rifle/combat handgun match. Wouldn't have to add much to the current CoF to make it multi-gun friendly. Heck 1/2 of all the targets could already be engaged by an AR as it sits. We have steel out to 1100 yards. Everything AR 500 from 8" plates to 24"x24" and even a few man sized steel silhouettes. With 2600 acres of natural terrain with hills, valleys, and ponds at our disposal, anything is possible. It's just finding someone with enough experience capable of putting on the match.

[D.Hayden]

One thing about the other IMG matches.. that seems to be their primary focus..

USPSA - the main focus is Pistol Nationals. During the time leading up to this MG Nationals, there was a lot if uncertainty about where it would be, and details.

I saw a couple of items saying "The staff is focused on the Pistol Nationals now" - maybe there needs to be 2 separate crews. I understand about the lack of bodies available, but it seems the MG Nationals are always the red-headed stepchild.

Maybe if they were much further apart.. the matches could get the attention they deserve.

[outerlimits]

have real open shotguns, not limited 10.

come up with ways to better separate tactical and open in rifle

allow for a mixture of paper target types within a multigun stage-the turtle targets are great for rifle, but suck for everything else.

dump the double penalty values of of enhanced targets. look at a long range rifle stage with 10-300+ yard targets worth 20 pts. each. say someone hits 8 of 10 for 160 pts. his penalties for the 2 are -40 each, so he ends up dropping 120 pts and has a whopping 40 pts for hitting 8 of 10.

i love flying clays, but if they cannot be thrown consistently for EVERY shooter, get rid of 'em.

[Charles Bond]

Hmmm... reading all of this makes me wish there were local guys experienced enough in running a 3Gun match to use the facilities we have available to us in Alabama. Each year we have a $30,000.00 prize table for our precision rifle/combat handgun match. Wouldn't have to add much to the current CoF to make it multi-gun friendly. Heck 1/2 of all the targets could already be engaged by an AR as it sits. We have steel out to 1100 yards. Everything AR 500 from 8" plates to 24"x24" and even a few man sized steel silhouettes. With 2600 acres of natural terrain with hills, valleys, and ponds at our disposal, anything is possible. It's just finding someone with enough experience capable of putting on the match.

The root of that problem is that half of the shooters on this forum believe that no on in the east can produce a real three gun match and that is a prejudice that started years ago and continues to this day. There are also a bunch of shooters that want the matches to be in a venue where it is more about the other things (shows and gambling) than it is about the shooting. They want longer distance shooting than they think we can provide east of the Mississippi but we can shoot to 1500 yards and beyond in the east on at least 3 ranges I have visited but yet we are told that we do not have suitable facilities.

[Charles Bond]

have real open shotguns, not limited 10.

come up with ways to better separate tactical and open in rifle

allow for a mixture of paper target types within a multigun stage-the turtle targets are great for rifle, but suck for everything else.

dump the double penalty values of of enhanced targets. look at a long range rifle stage with 10-300+ yard targets worth 20 pts. each. say someone hits 8 of 10 for 160 pts. his penalties for the 2 are -40 each, so he ends up dropping 120 pts and has a whopping 40 pts for hitting 8 of 10.

i love flying clays, but if they cannot be thrown consistently for EVERY shooter, get rid of 'em.

I am open to unlimited rounds in open shotguns

Additional separation of tactical rifle and open would be fine. How should we do it? When we started we said one optic and then revised it to define "optic" as a sighting device to allow magnifiers. Should we return to just one optic?

Mixing paper targets on stages could be a good thing as long as we said that target type A was for a certain type of weapon and target type B was for another.

As to long range penalties, what if instead of saying that you get points down for misses that you gained points for hits? Would you award bonus points based on yardage ie a hit at 400 would be better than 300 or would you treat them all the same?

From what I have seen of flying clays, it is just like the reset on any other prop. If you set it correctly, it will work and if you do not do it correctly, YMMV. If you are talking about the pop up clays, the problem more often than not is that the popper and the flipper were not properly anchored to the ground.

Great suggestions.

[chendersby]

One thing about the other IMG matches.. that seems to be their primary focus..

USPSA - the main focus is Pistol Nationals. During the time leading up to this MG Nationals, there was a lot if uncertainty about where it would be, and details.

I saw a couple of items saying "The staff is focused on the Pistol Nationals now" - maybe there needs to be 2 separate crews. I understand about the lack of bodies available, but it seems the MG Nationals are always the red-headed stepchild.

Maybe if they were much further apart.. the matches could get the attention they deserve.

This thread has really drifted from my origional question. It sees there are very few rules deemed unnecessary. Actually there was more call for new ones. So our rules vary a little from the other big 3gun events about as much as they do from each other. So why is the USPSA Nationals losing attendance? BerKim hit it on the head. Also along the same lines, what do all the big 3 gun matches have what we don't? A dedicated match director and staff that is there year after year that work year round to produce great matches. Sadly that is what we are lacking in USPSA right now and it is a very frustrating position for me as a Board member especially. There are 2 Board members who have stated in this thread they are ready to throw in the towel on 3gun. I thought we put on a pretty good Nationals this year reversing the trend of the last few years. I think it is important for USPSA to be involved in 3gun and continue hosting a National Championship.

Now that I have drifted my own thread about as far from the origional question as I can, I will now go pound my head into a wall for awhile and then try to see if we can continue to improve USPSA 3 gun.

[Chuck Anderson]

Well since it seems that Charles and I are the only other two BOD members on here I'm guessing you're talking about me. Let me make something clear. I do NOT want USPSA to get out of Multigun. I lve shooting multigun. I'm guessing I've shot and worked more multigun matches than any other BOD member other than The Pres.

What I am saying is that USPSA multigun is not working. This is not a slam on the Vegas crew. I really wanted to go this year and would have been there but for health issues. The fact that this venue and crew couldn't draw more people speaks to some serious issues with the way we run the sport.

I would much rather see USPSA scrap the existing rules (You asked which ones to get rid of) and adopt an IMGA ruleset. Whether it is run as USPSA or along the lines of Steel Challenge as a separate discipline under the USPSA umbrella is something for further discussion.

Again I do NOT want to see USPSA get out of multi gun. I just want something that will attract shooters

[Religious Shooter]

Being a Devil's advocate here... if USPSA looks at what the other matches do to learn from...

Which match(es) has 4MOA LR target requirements?

Which match(es) paints their LR steel after each shooter/squad?

Which match(es) allow box mags in shotguns in Tactical Iron/Scope?

Which match(es) don't use flippers/flying clays?

Which match(es) require or make you to do a reload?

Very little (if none at all) of the majors do this. And yet some of us want USPSA to do them?

Does that really make sense? We want to increase participation in USPSA doing things that the more successful matches don't do?

[Mig]

ITS THE PRIZE TABLE

Agreed . . .

[Charles Bond]

Well since it seems that Charles and I are the only other two BOD members on here I'm guessing you're talking about me. Let me make something clear. I do NOT want USPSA to get out of Multigun. I lve shooting multigun. I'm guessing I've shot and worked more multigun matches than any other BOD member other than The Pres.

What I am saying is that USPSA multigun is not working. This is not a slam on the Vegas crew. I really wanted to go this year and would have been there but for health issues. The fact that this venue and crew couldn't draw more people speaks to some serious issues with the way we run the sport.

I would much rather see USPSA scrap the existing rules (You asked which ones to get rid of) and adopt an IMGA ruleset. Whether it is run as USPSA or along the lines of Steel Challenge as a separate discipline under the USPSA umbrella is something for further discussion.

Again I do NOT want to see USPSA get out of multi gun. I just want something that will attract shooters

Chuck do not forget Chris is also an AD and actually started this thread.

I hate to see USPSA leave MG but enough is enough. It is not about what I want or another shooter wants. USPSA is a business and our sole focus is not MG. It is like McDonalds trying to sell soup in a can. They can try it but if they can not generate sales numbers to justify stocking it, they need to get back to the hamburgers that has sustained the chain.

USPSA has consistently lost money on the MG nationals and the entire idea behind USPSA offering MG was to broaden our approach offering more to our membership and grow USPSA membership from bringing in MG shooters. Sadly we have done neither despite year after year of trying. USPSA members are not attending the match in numbers sufficient to justify holding the match at all much less using USPSA dollars and staff that could be better used else where. We have also not attracted MG shooters who are not already USPSA members to join our organization and it is very clear USPSA is failing here since out of the full MG matches I have attended over the last 2 years my sense was that only about half of the people there were USPSA members.

Shooters who fill other matches on a regular basis are not coming to the match no matter where we host it or how. There may be a host of reasons for this but what I have heard strongly on this forum is that many of the multi gun regulars simply do not like USPSA. We have listened and adjusted before based on MG shooter imput and they did not show up. We have engaged in regular communication with several of the big names in MG shooting and the MDs who host very successful MG matches and not only has it not helped, in a couple of cases we had less participation because of it. Yet despite all of this we are told that USPSA takes a pistol match approach to MG.

Other matches do not receive criticisim because their distant targets are not 4 moa or because their flopper clay throwers are sometimes not being consistent in how they throw the clay. I have not heard a peep that any other MG match should change their rules and put box fed shotguns into any division other than open. We are told we can not hold the match in the east because the western shooters will not come believing they can not shoot distance. We hold the match in the west and the eastern shooters do not come becasue of expense and despite the fact that the threads here seem to think the west is full of MG shooters, they do not show up for the match either.

And before someone chimes in once again that it is all about the prize table, there has been nothing shabby at all about the USPSA MG prize tables during the USPSA experiment with MG. Just becasue a shooter did not get what they feel they deserved or that they recieved what they believe was a better prize at _____ match does not mean that the value of the prize table USPSA offered was in any way undersized. True there have been larger prize tables at other matches but those other matches had more shooters. If one bases prize tables upon dividing the total number of shooters into the total value of the prize table, the USPSA MG Nationals exceeds at least what is advertised by most other matches.

Exactly how would USPSA justify continuing to pull money and staff away from other successful programs to host an expensive and difficult to produce match regularly attended by less than 200 people despite more than 5 years of making exactly that effort?

Edited November 6, 2009 by Charles Bond

[davecutts]

Charles:

That's unbelievable, especially coming from a Director of USPSA whose mission it is to promote practical shooting. I pulled this from the USPSA bylaws

1.2 Organization:

This corporation shall be organized as a non-profit non-stock corporation under the general corporation laws of Delaware. It shall be in existence in perpetuity or until formally dissolved by the action of competent authority.

1.3 Forming and Maintaining this Corporation as Non-Profit:

It is the intent and desire of the corporation that it, and its bylaws, complies with the requirements of the United States government in the forming and maintaining of this corporation as a non-profit entity.

ARTICLE 3 - OBJECTS AND PURPOSES:

The objects and purposes of this corporation shall be

i.) to promote amateur national and international athletic competition,

3.1 Direction:

In order to accomplish its stated purposes the corporation shall

i.) set forth and publish rules and guidelines for the conduct of practical shooting contests,

ii.) establish a system for classifying competitors within various classes of abilities,

iii.) establish and publish the corporate newsletter, defined herein as Front Sight Magazine,

iv.) establish and direct the National Range Officer Institute, a division of the corporation, to train and certify range officials,

v.) establish a system for qualifying competitors to participate in national championship contests,

vi.) conduct national championship contests annually in order to determine champions and qualify team(s) of competitors to represent the United States in international competition(s), and

vii.) conduct other business and activities to accomplish the purposes of the organization as the Board of Directors may authorize from time-to-time.