Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited?

[whiskey1]

I think DPMS has the right idea. This year was my first Tri-Gun Challenge but I noticed the winner of each division was awarded a check for $3000. Didn't matter if there was one shooter or one hundred. Limited is in a vicious cycle that is killing it. IOW prizes and recognition are awarded based on total numbers in a division. Fewer people generally enter limited so fewer prizes are distributed. Since there aren't many prizes other people won't enter limited.

Specifically, this year's nationals did not have enough in limited to recognize the division. I think two things might be at play here. First the match was held in the desert southwest. That is county where you can see forever and optics are probably mounted on most every rifle of any type in that part of the country. The Deep South and maybe Northeast probably have a higher percentage of iron sight shooters because of the terrain involved in shooting there. Yes, I know Texas and Oklahoma are very well represented as well. Second, people knew that USPSA Nationals for a variety of reasons does not attract the kind of sponsorship other matches do and shooters could never hope to recoup any of the cost of shooting the match from prizes awarded. How many drivers would spend the time and money to run the Daytona 500 if it were for prestige only? Therefore, many of the limited shooters were not interested in travelling to the match.

It's the old question of which came first- chicken or egg. I personally entered irons in my first few matches and have a very nice limited rifle leaning in the corner right now. But my first year at the BRM3G (it could have been any match just happened to be that one) I cost myself about $600 in prize value by entering limited. That is if I had shot the exact same score in tactical optics that I did with irons. I have toyed with the idea of just entering TO and shooting a limited rifle but have not had the personal fortitude to do it yet. I know a couple others on here have and have done very well.

The Multi-gun Nationals offers Titles and Recognition to the elite of our sport and an advertising boost to their sponsors. Most of the guys and gals who are capable of winning a nationals will probably show up. A certain number of folks will come just to shoot in a match with those people. For the rest of us the match just doesn't have anything much to offer. That is the difference between the independent matches and USPSA matches. A match must offer a certain amount of value (prestige, awards, prizes, challenging COFs, good atmosphere, a BBQ, beer wagon, friendly ROs, circus targets, houses or barns to shoot in, riding in a striker, stages dug in a trench system, soldiers popping smoke, M 203 grenades, etc. It doesn't really matter what.) to attract shooters in any division. The amount of value of whatever type is directly related to shooter participation whether it be in a particualar division like limited or a whole match like the Nationals. Most shooters will shoot wherever and in whatever division they get the most bang for the buck.

[bigbrowndog]

I do not know this guy, but I like his thinking. you have put the subject in very succinct words..

I owe you a whiskey, if ever we should meet.

AW crap i do know this guy, i just looked at his profile...............

I still owe you one, Joe!!!

trapr

Edited November 10, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[whiskey1]

Thanks, Trap I'll take it! Whiskey 1 is my radio call sign though...

[Bryan 45]

MMMMmmmmmmmmm, beer wagon.....

[bigbrowndog]

Thats one wagon you won't find me on, but Kurt will ride that pony!!!!!

Trapr

[mpeltier]

Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited?

I don't know what would bring more iron sight shooters to a match, but I do know what could make someone put a scope on their rifle for their next match........

Have a match with one stage worth 12% of the match, make it a secret stage, make it out in the woods somewhere so the shooter can't see it or get target distances, put 3 truck loads of targets out in the field at varying distances from 50 to 400 yards, and then put an iron sight shooter that has to deal with 36" of bullet drop at the start line, and then stand back and watch him blow up $40 worth of ammunition on the stage.

That will pretty much make him put a scope on his rifle.

I agree.

At some bigger matches targets seem to be getting farther and farther out there, and many Iron shooters jump to tac-optic. This creates the perception for the rest of the iron shooters that the prize table is compromised and more will join the tac-optic crowd for that reason. I do not have a dog in this hunt as i have always shot Tac-optic and not for the prize table, i just enjoy shooting optics. If you took the entire Tac-optic prize table and dumped it on the limited table i would still shoot Tac-optic.

[chp5]

OK - I'm really late to the party. If the goal is to INCREASE TURN OUT IN LIMITED, then I agree with SinisterRifleman - let 1x scopes play.

For all the reasons discussed, LTD is a HARD division. It will not attract new, novice shooters. However tons of shooters have red dots on their rifles. IIRC, the std issue in the US Army is an M4 with an Aimpoint. Ironically, even though this is a very common set up (possibly the most common), a 1x red dot is not well represented in our sport at most matches with real distance shots.

Personally, I think distance shots are easier with irons than red dots - assuming you know your zeros.

[JeffWard]

1X Red-Dots... Promote it to the young men and women coming back from over-seas who have been carrying an M4 with a Red-Dot for a year over there...

Jeff

[want2race]

1X Red-Dots... Promote it to the young men and women coming back from over-seas who have been carrying an M4 with a Red-Dot for a year over there...

Jeff

Now that I've built myself a nice limited rifle, and shot it a little, I have changed my opinion.

If allowing 1x optics will grow the division then let them play. I don't think there is an advantage when looking at the match as a whole.

[twodownzero]

I have been shooting with irons since 2005 and recently, a friend of mine loaned me his tac-optic rifle while he is out of the country.

I shot a multigun match with it last year, and I have to admit, I definitely enjoyed shooting with a 3x red dot as long as the targets were 50 yards or more.

I still love my irons and I don't see myself switching. If they let 1x dots play with the irons, of course I will have no choice but to switch, as dots are unquestionably faster for me.

[jwfuhrman]

Im getting into 3gun this year. The local matches here close to me at Atlanta, IN have VERY short ranges from what some of the guys from Sinclair Intl that shoot them tell me, and Im considering running my SBR with EOTech in that(as in, distance is measured in FEET not YARDS). If Tac Irons/Limited allowed use of 1x Optics, I would prolly sell my Tac Optic Scope and get a red dot for the rifle and shoot that instead.

[mike_pinto]

This will be our 4th match allowing non-magnified red dots in Tac-non-magnified (Irons). Working out well for us. We do about 50/50 non-magnified to magnified..

M

[VegasOPM]

I have to agree with the non-magnified idea. I love my little Leupold Prismatic and it is mounted up most of the time. However, when I shoot a multigun match, I switch it over to a CQT so I am not at a major disadvantage at 300m. I used to shoot irons (before Tac/ Optics came into being)in Limited. Within 50 yds, I don't really see an advantge to optics- but 300m is a very different story. Especially now that the targets seem to be getting smaller.

[Bryan 45]

Mike, did I read that right? You guys are split almost down the middle on Optics vs. Irons (and red-dot) shooters?

If so, that has worked better than I expected. Keep it up man!

[kurtm]

Well it has worked even better than you think. Of the 20-25 shooters in Tac Non Magnified about 2/3rds are BRAND NEW SHOOTERS. OKC 3-Gun has grown our shooter base EXACTLY reverse of what other clubs have done. We let them play with their red dots in 3-gun and NOW most of them are becoming interested in our monthly pistol match. So we actually got people to come out and shoot 3-gun before they came to a pistol match, and everyone of them has said they NEVER would have shot a match until we let them play with their red dots! BTW all out regular iron shooters (some of the best in the country have welcomed the red dots with open arms and NO ONE has said it was bad! We are getting guys that are in the Military we are getting Cops, and we are getting the guys that always had an AR with no place to play with it. IT IS GREAT! KurtM

[mike_pinto]

Yeah, to piggy back on what Kurt said, we might have successfully tested the theory. We have lost a few to scopes and might again when we consistanly shoot 300 yards, but it is pretty even. We have been talking here on how to attract them into a "limited" division and we took the ideas and put them in motion. We are also starting to ge some prett good talent out of it and most of the new shooters with the eotech's and other dots say they would not have come out again and again if they had to shoot against the magnified optics.

If all of us would try it for 3 matches and talk the MD's of the big matches to try it, we may have found the solution.

M

[Dan Sierpina]

Yeah, to piggy back on what Kurt said, we might have successfully tested the theory. We have lost a few to scopes and might again when we consistanly shoot 300 yards, but it is pretty even. We have been talking here on how to attract them into a "limited" division and we took the ideas and put them in motion. We are also starting to ge some prett good talent out of it and most of the new shooters with the eotech's and other dots say they would not have come out again and again if they had to shoot against the magnified optics.

If all of us would try it for 3 matches and talk the MD's of the big matches to try it, we may have found the solution.

M

Mike, Kurt,

What kind of targets are being used at what distance? Are you using something such as clay pidgeons at 100+yards? What are the average distances at the matches?

[mike_pinto]

Dan, we generally shoot within the confines of our pistol bays ~50 yards. We have shot 6" Carrol targets at 125 and we use mostly 1/2 size paper for all rifle. I will be curious when we get our 300 yard bay included in these matches. I would expect to lose a few more to scopes but having 30-40% shooting non-magnified will still be pretty telling numbers.

M

[Bryan 45]

Outstanding job, guys! I'm going to start talking to our local multi-gun match director to see if I can get him to adopt this rule. Unfortunately we only have about 3 matches a year, so it will take a full year to see any results.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[jwfuhrman]

To bad your matches are farther than I can afford to travel to right now. I would so come shoot Limited if I can use a EOTech on a rifle instead of just Irons.