JP Enterprises' Rocky Mountain 3-Gun 2010

[kellyn]

It is true, if Daniel Horner had not shot this match all the TS scores would have been better. But that is true for every Division. Biggest difference - He Man Scope, Smallest difference - Limited Irons. Here are the 1st and 2nd shooter in each Division:

Open -

Miculek 100%

Holmes 89.62%

Difference 10.38%

TS -

Horner 100%

Miller 85.77%

Difference 14.23%

LI -

Underdown 100%

Kurtz 97.21%

Difference 2.79%

HE-I

Kelley 100%

Watson 90.97%

Difference 9.3%

HE-S

Neal 100%

Moots 85.06

Difference 14.4%

Average Difference 10.22%

Doug

True but there were about 170 shooters in Tac Scope.

[RiggerJJ]

Thanks to Denise, JJ, the great RO's and all the match staff for making RM3G the 3 gun event of the year.

JP..thanks for being the main sponsor and giving me the advice to aim low on the clays using the Mossberg on Stage 5, otherwise my match score could have ended up being really crappy....oh wait....too late.

I won't get into the "Prizegate" debate, but for those of you who were at the deep end of the table like me and got a Brownells Gift Certificate please take note...

The date on my cetificate letter was 2 years old. When I tried to use it online it said the verification code was invalid. I called Brownells(Yes I thanked them for being a sponsor) and they said that particular code was redeemed two years ago. I explained how I got the certificate and they agreed to honor it anway. Thanks Brownells.

Called Brownells, customer service told me to have all certificate holders to call in your orders, and if there is a problem with the certificate number to do as trugent did, explain where you received the certificate (2010 RM3G) and they would honor the certificate.

sorry for the confusion...Those were sent to us THIS year for the 2010 RM3G match, they were not "old" certificates. Seems to be some kind of snafu at their end.

jj

Edited August 11, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[Doug H.]

I think the beauty of the prize distribution system that Denise and JJ devised was that you walked the table based on how you did against the best shooter in your division, regardless of how many people shot that division. It could be a problem if one division has a weak shooter as the winnter (like if I won Open) but at this match I don't think that was the case. There is no perfect way to distribute prizes, at least they gave it a novel try at RM3G 2010.

Doug

[ken hebert]

prize table... look at it this way: doing it like they did greatly simplified an already tedious task piled on top of setting up one of the premier matches of the year. it alleviated them the job of having to break down the prizes into 5 different tables and insure an equal amount per shooter on each table. the T.O guys still got everything coming to them, the he-man got its share, and so on. i think whats bothering some is the fact that, lets say for instance in my category, someone from limited irons walked the table before me whom I may have had a higher match score than. this shooter would have walked his own table at the same place as i would have walked mine. i will admit i'm having a little ego issue with it... but i'm just gonna put on my big boy britches and come back next year. and like this year versus last year, i will place higher than i did, prize table be damned.

looking forward to rm3g '11 where i will get my on.

[Dave Campbell]

Would it be possible to get "Overall Results" as has been done in past years 2009 and 2008???

[Benelli Chick]

Yep! I've got the request into the Webmaster now. He's a little tired at the moment and JJ was afraid it would confuse you all especially with the percent of winner on the prize table.

It should be posted soon, and to briefly explain, it's like you were all shooting in the same division. Just one stage winner. So, you will be compared on your real performance only. Divisions do not matter. In fact, Roger will put you all in Open to run the report!

Sorry for the delay! I know you like to see how you did...T__ __'s up! Head to head??? You know what I mean!

Hey, I'm back at school sitting through inservices, I'm not even sure what day it is!

Denise

[Dave Campbell]

Thanks

[Benelli Chick]

So, we asked JP what he really wanted as far as the pins go to make sure I hadn't @#$@'d up.

I did! I thought he wanted top 25% of finish and he wanted top 1/4 of all the shooters. Sorry! Just wanted to mess with your heads and give you a deep feeling of depression for not getting your pin!!!

So, in the next couple months, JJ and I will bring the pins to all the matches and give them to those of you who were supposed to get them, if we can and then we'll get the rest in the mail.

All the divisions came out okay except...limited scope!

All limited scope shooters down to 59% should have received one because they were in the top 1/4 of shooters in limited scope.

So additional congrats to: Tyler Payne, Kalani Laker, Rustin Bernskoeter, James Casanova, Travis Gibson, Ben Fortin, Jaime Foote, Daniel Nickel, Ken Hebert, Mark Stephens, Jason Wong, Jeff Cramblit, Jared Wilson, John Mouret, Scott MacGregor, Zak Smith, Mike Darby, Sterling White, Mark Mutz, Sheldon Blackwell, Andy Horner, Mick Sterling, Scott Carnahan, Vance Schmid, Doug Bowdler, Adam Casanova, Benny Hill, Mike Dowd and Mick Darren.

These are the people who did not receive pins, who should have. I will find you or you can find us! We will be at Nationals, the 3Gun Nation match, Ozark Mountain and Ft Benning.

This was no ones fault but mine. Roger did an incredibly wonderful job at stats and I just misunderstood. I'm sorry for any distress it may have caused or extra practice you may have done already! I'm really sorry!

Denise

[bigbrowndog]

you are forgiven!!!

but you cannot make any more errors for the rest of the year.

trapr

[Benelli Chick]

you are forgiven!!!

but you cannot make any more errors for the rest of the year.

trapr

Then I'm in deep doodoo! My brain is like swiss cheese lately! Old age sucks!

[ken hebert]

makes me feel better now.

Sorry kiddo, but i'm one of the ones who will have to depend on USPS to get mine, as I dont think i'll be at any of those matches.

[P.E. Kelley]

Yep! I've got the request into the Webmaster now. He's a little tired at the moment and JJ was afraid it would confuse you all especially with the percent of winner on the prize table.

It should be posted soon, and to briefly explain, it's like you were all shooting in the same division. Just one stage winner. So, you will be compared on your real performance only. Divisions do not matter. In fact, Roger will put you all in Open to run the report!

Sorry for the delay! I know you like to see how you did...T__ __'s up! Head to head??? You know what I mean!

Hey, I'm back at school sitting through inservices, I'm not even sure what day it is!

Denise

When?

[Benelli Chick]

Soon???

Apparently, I'm not having a good day!

I will rerequest!

Thanks for the reminder!

[Benelli Chick]

Your wish is my command!

It's up with all of you listed in Open.

[sbmd]

you are forgiven!!!

but you cannot make any more errors for the rest of the year.

trapr

Then I'm in deep doodoo! My brain is like swiss cheese lately! Old age sucks!

Old age ...you told me you were only 29, at least that is what I thought you said when we were doing 60mph in the Razor. Oh I wasn't suppose to say anything was I. OOOOPS!

Great match...put me down for next year and I loved the off hand rifle shots, I sucked at them but I loved it!

[atomicferret]

I wanted to give a shout out to MGM targets for the new Steel I acquired by way of this match. Also a BIG thanks to PWS for the piston upper that I shot during the match. I am looking forward to next years match.

[dogdoc]

The combined score now up on the RM3G webpage is how the scoring should be done for prize table distribution. That is you score based on the OVERALL match winner, head-to-head, straight-up, all divisions aside! Simply merging the percentages doesn't indicate anything about how you shot overall against the match winner. Take out each division winner, as was done, and allow them their own prizes, then go in the remaining order to walk the table.

[mike_pinto]

Really? You really think the hm and tac iron guys should be penalized by walking the table later for shooting the hardest division based in heads up scoring?

So you are saying lets do away with divisions all together?

Interesting.

[1chota]

Really? You really think the hm and tac iron guys should be penalized by walking the table later for shooting the hardest division based in heads up scoring?

So you are saying lets do away with divisions all together?

Interesting.

Amen, brother Pinto!

[smokshwn]

Really? You really think the hm and tac iron guys should be penalized by walking the table later for shooting the hardest division based in heads up scoring?

So you are saying lets do away with divisions all together?

Interesting.

How is it the hardest division?

[mike_pinto]

Really? If using a combined scoring matrix as the previous poster suggested, it would be the hardest divisions. 10 round pistol magazines, 20 round rifle magazines, pump shotgun...... Not to mention unpainted long range steel with iron sights.

Edited August 17, 2010 by mike_pinto

[smokshwn]

Yes, really.

HM and TI are certainly the slowest divisions, but to call them harder injects a lot of opinion. Each division has its challenges. One equipment set may allow you to shoot a little faster, but there is still a large amount of skill and technique that must be mastered. Some divisions require a whole helluva lot more equipment testing/research/setup than others. What energy I may save in seeing targets I may spend in course breakdown or weapons manipulations (select slug drills are much easier when you are not in OPEN) etc. etc. All of these things contribute to the difficulty of the division.

But just for arguments sake...(remember who I ride around with).... your advocation, is that by subjectively calling it the hardest division, justifies TI shooters walking the table in disproportionate number commensurate to their objective performance???

Fair can be a subjective measurement, but equal is usually tied to objective criteria. In the past TI/HM shooters have stated they felt that they were unfairly recognized by having a smaller prize table, even though the division participation was low in comparison to TO prize tables who have the bulk of the shooters. I know the intent at this years RM3G was to try and balance that. Due to the math, the # of participants, etc etc it worked out that the TI guys got a huge bonus (50% walked in first 32 slots). Due to the perceived difficulty of the division some call that fair, but it is surely not equal.

For the record, I don't know quite how I feel about the prize table distribution this year. It seems that it created new problems where it solved old ones and IMO trying to keep everyone happy at the prize table is like trying to put a wet cat in a sack.

Edited August 17, 2010 by smokshwn

[mike_pinto]

True, but because I shot within 10% percent of my division winner, I got to go to the table first. Also for the sake of argument, yes, irons are harder, for most people to shoot, then optics. I am not trying to get anyone's ass hairs in a bunch, just maybe saying that getting rid of divisions and have everyone shoot open is not necessarily what this sport needs. Getting more people to shoot the smaller divisions is what we need and if a prize table like RM is what does it, great. Your point, as a fellow MD, I am always looking for ways to improve the table, and again, I am Switzerland and the way JJ and Denise did it, although it worked out for Scott, peter and I.

[M ammo]

I shot HM Scoped, I did not shoot well, But I did it,, and can put that in my bucket list of things I did!

I only had one stage that after shooting it, that I had that,,, Good feeling, that I knew,, I shot to my potential. Oh well lessons learned,,, will make me better,,,

In any case, shooting the .45 with 10 round mags and a pump shotgun. Did not help ME.

On the crazy shotgun stage,,, with a pump,,, on those birds and rabbits,, ya baby!! A fun stage in any case,,

not that I was going to win the match,,, but,, I do want to earn one of those SOF Pins,, If I live long enough,,

HM rifle,, holding up a 308, is not a big deal,, until you go back to your smaller game gun. And then, you realize,, those off hand shots would have been a little easier.

On the other hand,, if the wind was up and blowing,, the 308 would have been worth the weight, and I may just shoot the 308 in Tac Optic,,,, in the future,,, If the wind is blowing,,,,

and a 30 round mag,,, opposed to a 20 round mag.. Simple math. 30% is a bunch of ammo,,

Considerations in playing this game.

[dogdoc]

I never said anything about getting rid of divisions! For the prize table this match was basically turned into a divisionless (is that a word?) match. Merging the percentages into a mass list of shooters is totally irrelevant in regards to your overall percentage, which is what the true order of finish should be base on. The percentage I shot in TO would not be the same when put up against only open, HI, HO, or TI. Merging them together is not a percentage for overall, it is still the same percentage you shot for the match in your division.

I don't have a problem with trying this distribution method, but IMHO, and that't just what it is, in order to distribute in this way, you can't simply merge percentages, the match needs to be scored as one division.

People complain that the prize tables are smaller for the smaller divisions, but that doesn't mean that TO shooters are guaranteed something better, because the competition is more fierce, at all levels, with a larger number of shooters.

But, as long as everyone knows exactly what is happening going into the match, then they can choose the division of choice.