Ooook... Anybody know what happend here?

[SLM]

Ok, so last Saturday night I shot a three stage match. On the last stage the gun didn't go bang when I pulled the trigger. Being a Production guy at heart I reloaded, racked the slide and finished the stage. When I picked up the mag this is what I found...

This from a gun that in over 3K rounds hasn't so much as had a hiccup let alone a jam. Nothing, Nada, zilch, zippo, zero problems. 100% percent bang switch boom.

I leave this Saturday for the MI Section and I'd really like to know what to look for.

[GrumpyOne]

What power loads were they? If it were a minor load, I'm thinking that maybe the spent case, on the rearward motion of the slide, actually got caught in the feed lips of the magazine, pushing the other rounds down, kind of like loading the mag with the slide as it was moving backwards. Once the rim was under the feed lips, the bottom of the actual slide may have contacted the open mouth of the case, forcing it deeper into the mag and turning it upwards. All in all, that is a new one. I think it was a freak occurence.

[CSEMARTIN]

I think one of your shooting buddies is playing a practical joke on you.

It looks like that round was fired, but I don't see how it could find itself upside down inside the magazine like that. Maybe somebody picked that piece of brass up off the ground, got ahold of one of your mags, stripped a couple of rounds out, put the empty in, and then fed the loaded rounds above it so you wouldn't notice. The gun would chamber the round above it, fire, not feed another round, not go bang like you said it didn't and you reloaded--everything was fine.

[GrumpyOne]

I think one of your shooting buddies is playing a practical joke on you.

It looks like that round was fired, but I don't see how it could find itself upside down inside the magazine like that. Maybe somebody picked that piece of brass up off the ground, got ahold of one of your mags, stripped a couple of rounds out, put the empty in, and then fed the loaded rounds above it so you wouldn't notice. The gun would chamber the round above it, fire, not feed another round, not go bang like you said it didn't and you reloaded--everything was fine.

I'd buy that too! Probably more likely than my scenario! And if it is the truth, then buddy, you got played. Time for some payback!

[Tizzle]

If that's a legit malfunction, I could have retired off of the odds of that in vegas.

[Flexmoney]

- First, the rounds in your mag jammed up. This could be ammo related, weak springs (likely), dirty mags, round mags, follower hang-up/roll-over, mags out of proper dimension/squareness ...etc.

- Second, your extraction/ejections is likely marginal. Without a (next) round pushing up from the magazine...your gun would just as soon not eject casings out the ejection port. This would be hard to notice (especially in Open) since you seldom have to run the gun dry.

[Pezco]

It looks like you found my wallet, thanks!

[kimel]

Too much money in your wallet caused you to list a bit to either port or starboard (depending on which side your wallet was on) thus causing the gravitational forces to be misaligned.

You should removed said money from your wallet, send it to Brian to support the forums, and then buy new mag springs with the money you mooch off your wife.

[Jeff9mmM&P]

Ok, so last Saturday night I shot a three stage match. On the last stage the gun didn't go bang when I pulled the trigger. Being a Production guy at heart I reloaded, racked the slide and finished the stage. When I picked up the mag this is what I found...

This from a gun that in over 3K rounds hasn't so much as had a hiccup let alone a jam. Nothing, Nada, zilch, zippo, zero problems. 100% percent bang switch boom.

I leave this Saturday for the MI Section and I'd really like to know what to look for.

Sorry Ryan I thought you were keeping your empties in there.

Jeff

[SLM]

The jam is legit. I loaded the mag and put it on my belt. It wasn't out of my possession at any time so I know no one messed with it. PF on these was a little low for my liking, about 166/167 but still easily Major. Hum... the spring very well could be getting marginal in that tube. It's a 140 SV tube with a flat Arredondo base pad on it with Grams guts that gets used a bunch. The only other thing that I changed was from lubing with FP-10 to trying Slide-Glide Lite for the first time.

I checked extractor tension (Aftec) by loading one dummy round in a mag and feeding it into the chamber, dropping the mag out and retracting the slide slowly. The round stayed straight under the extractor and ejected out the port. They never even hinted about falling back in. I had a gun that did that.

Thanks.

[SLM]

Too much money in your wallet caused you to list a bit to either port or starboard (depending on which side your wallet was on) thus causing the gravitational forces to be misaligned.

You should removed said money from your wallet, send it to Brian to support the forums, and then buy new mag springs with the money you mooch off your wife.

LOL!! I did a fair job supporting the shop that hosts the matches on Saturday night.... Shhh... don't tell the girlfriend.... she doesn't understand why anybody spends money on guns or a hobby/sport that doesn't have cash payback!

JEFF!!! You stuck that in there didn't you?!?!?!

Edited August 19, 2009 by SLM

[StraightUp_OG]

Force Majeure?

;-)

[G-ManBart]

To add something to the mix, I've seen where a partially loaded mag was dropped just right and the top round did a 180 and was in the tube backwards. The mag hits on the basepad which compresses the stack enough that it opens space in the top. That would have to be the second half of the "event" for it to make any sense. I'm wondering if a slightly lighter load than you usally like, plus the Slide Glide, which will slow the slide speed somewhat (even if only a little) caused a weak extraction and the empty got forced back down into the mag when the slide closed rather than feeding a fresh round. Then you dropped the mag, the empty on top bounced into a weird position (with the heaviest part of the case being the lowest) when it hit the ground and the stack moved down.

That's just a guess, of course...

[SLM]

And the mystery deepens... Hahahaha! I can see that happening. Right now all I know for sure is that for the next two weeks (MI Section and A8) that mag is staying home and I'm going back to FP-10 for lube.

Keep the ideas coming. I'm leaning toward Kyle's weak spring + G-Man's hitting the base pad theory.

[CSEMARTIN]

Can you check the OAL of the rounds that were underneath that piece of brass?

Edit: Are any of them too long?

Edited August 19, 2009 by CSEMARTIN

[CSEMARTIN]

If this is a legitimate malfuction, it is the goofiest malfunction I've ever heard of--even the empty .45 ACP brass that I personally witnessed fly out and land with the hammer inside the ejected piece of brass at the Michigan State IDPA Championship back in 2004.

With all of us combined, how many millions of rounds have been fired? We've never seen this happen before?

Edit: Now do we have two mysteries on the forum? Who made the Hitler video? And did someone mess with SLM's magazine at the match?

Edited August 19, 2009 by CSEMARTIN

[shooterready]

Ok, so last Saturday night I shot a three stage match.

OK, I'm assuming you were shooting indoors. Did the mag then drop onto a concrete surface during the reload?

If so, I agree with G-man. I've had this happen to me before indoors as well. Well, not the empty inside the mag, but a loaded round flipped backward after the mag hitting the concrete.

Interesting.

[Julien Boit]

If the slide has touched to case mouth while travelling, there would be some marks on the case.

The case looks clean, even clean as an unfired case !

[Chris Keen]

Now do we have two mysteries on the forum? Who made the Hitler video? And did someone mess with SLM's magazine at the match?

There's no mystery to either one, if you use a little common sense.

[CocoBolo]

I'm headed to Area 8 Championship next week so I feel your pain. The salt shaker mag is common that explains everything except the spent case.

While I can't think of a single thing in the gun that could cause it to start reloading mags, I could fathom the idea that the mag went salt shaker, that's when the follower hangs in the mag and the rounds get lose. So what are the chances the mag hit the floor and landed on a spent case?

At any rate you need to give your mags a good going over make a trip to the range and blast thru a few mags full to find out if you really have a problem or not. If you can't do that then I would take that mag out of the match rotation, until it can be verified to work properly. If you don't have a spare gun buddy up with another open shooter so you can double shoot one of the guns if yours or his/hers goes for a dirt knap.

[L9X25]

I had a 10mm Para with a sharp extractor that had lost tension. The gun ran flawlessly but would eject out of the grip 100% of the time if fired without a magazine. I can see that happening to that gun if the follower and rounds were not at the top of the magazine to keep the round high on the ejector.

[Powder Finger]

Make sure you don't have blue base pads, as then they think they are a Dillon product & trying to reload your cases.

For real i'd go with the too long OAL hangs the stack up then a loose extractor lets go of the empty into the mag.

[Jim Watson]

I have had it happen and seen it reported with standard 1911s.

It is most likely due to, as Flexmoney says, a marginal extractor that depends on the top round in the magazine guiding the empty back toward the ejector. Therefore usually seen on the last round in a single stack with weak extractor. Here perhaps related to a beat down double column magazine spring.

[SLM]

Yes, the mag was dropped on a cement floor but this happened before it was dropped. If it turned into a salt shaker it did it half way through the mag and then unjammed when it hit the floor. There were 8 or 9 rounds under the case and I flopped the case down and stripped the remaining rounds out just like normal. This tube and another like it have flat base pads on them that don't add any capacity. They have Grams spring/followers in them and I run 21 rounds in them.

I didn't think to check the length of the rounds left in the mag but I'd think one of them would have to have been darn long to jam up in an SV tube. I load to 1.175" for easy fit/function in my STI mags with spacers.

I checked the extractor and didn't see any chips on it but a closer inspection is most likely warranted. The tension seems good. It will hold a loaded round without issue and in hand cycling the gun without a mag inserted it ejects out the port, they don't even try to fall down the grip no matter how slowly I cycle the slide.

I'll give the ejector a better look but I didn't notice any chips/cracks/etc looking at it.

Maybe some new springs in the Aftec would be a good thing but I'm not sure I want to do that right before a major match.

I looked the extractor groove in the case over and didn't see any visible dents/dings/etc. I'd think a goofy extractor groove could cause some odd issues but I've never seen it happen myself.

Aha!! They do have blue base pads on them... Gotta break out the black paint!!!

[CocoBolo]

SLM - I remove the Aftec and clean the tunnel it sits in every 5000 rounds. It tends to get full of gook and the gun starts Stove Pipe'in. When removing the Aftec do that some place where it will be easy to find the springs and the metal cap, I spent hours in my welding shop looking for them. Found them at Brazos Custom Guns.

Actually I know when mine needs cleaning, at make ready when you let the slide fly and it does not close by its self its time for an extractor cleaning.

Also pay attention when removing as some Smiths are known to use only one of the two springs in the Aftec, would be bad to be looking for the other spring when there was only one.

Good Luck.