Lee King Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 My question is actually in 2 parts and it may be better suited in the stage design forum. My club has 2 MGM plate racks we have been using some for local matches. We recently aquired another similar piece of equipment. Are plate racks legal to use under the current USPSA rules? Metal targets as defined in Appendix B that are not poppers look like they HAVE to fall to the ground. While you knock over the plates on the plate rack, there is a mechanism involved (albeit simple) and no calibration methodology. Texas Stars are allowed but they also fall to the ground. I can see an issue with a plate that moves but doesn't go completely over (happens sometimes). Part II: The "other" piece of equipment is a dualing tree. I designed a stage for our local using it as a vertical plate rack. There is hard cover on the left side so that the plates are hidden if they've been hit. So all plates start on the right. The shooter engages the plates and instead of "falling" they flip to the hard cover side. IF a plate rack is legal, would anyone see issues with this set up? The stage procedures are, the plates must remain hidden. If a plate is hit through the hard cover and flipped back to the right, it will be a M if it is not re-engaged and flipped back. IF the dualing tree is legal, any issues with this procedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) Yes on the plate rack No on the dueling tree based on your description. Edited July 10, 2009 by chendersby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 If a plate is hit through the hard cover and flipped back to the right, it will be a Range Equipment Failure Hard cover is impenetrable...... Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) My question is actually in 2 parts and it may be better suited in the stage design forum.My club has 2 MGM plate racks we have been using some for local matches. We recently aquired another similar piece of equipment. Are plate racks legal to use under the current USPSA rules? Metal targets as defined in Appendix B that are not poppers look like they HAVE to fall to the ground. While you knock over the plates on the plate rack, there is a mechanism involved (albeit simple) and no calibration methodology. Texas Stars are allowed but they also fall to the ground. I can see an issue with a plate that moves but doesn't go completely over (happens sometimes). Part II: The "other" piece of equipment is a dualing tree. I designed a stage for our local using it as a vertical plate rack. There is hard cover on the left side so that the plates are hidden if they've been hit. So all plates start on the right. The shooter engages the plates and instead of "falling" they flip to the hard cover side. IF a plate rack is legal, would anyone see issues with this set up? The stage procedures are, the plates must remain hidden. If a plate is hit through the hard cover and flipped back to the right, it will be a M if it is not re-engaged and flipped back. IF the dualing tree is legal, any issues with this procedure? I can answer the first part. We used a plate rack in a state match once & got a ruling on it's legality: Plates must fall - not spin. They clearly do that. There is no mention that they must fall to the ground. Just that they fall. Calibration is not an issue. You cannot calibrate plates (only poppers). I'm not really understanding how you plan to use the dueling tree, so I'll let someone else jump in on that. Linda Chico (L-2035) Columbia SC Edited July 10, 2009 by LChico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 don't matter to me, but i've been told by at least one section coordinator that 1/2 of all texas stars in use are illegal targets. won't mention the manufacturer, but the two we have have little steel tabs extending out from the plates that insert into the arms that can be shot. easily fixed, but too late now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 "Impenetrable" - Good point. If I covered one side of the dualing tree with metal hardcover I should be ok then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 "Impenetrable" - Good point.If I covered one side of the dualing tree with metal hardcover I should be ok then? If the plates retreat behind hardcover EVERY time a >= minor round hits them, you simply have a vertical plate rack. But, I am not sure it would ever be foolproof and I am not sure that swinging left or right satisfies "must fall". I would not use it for a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 I'm not really understanding how you plan to use the dueling tree, so I'll let someone else jump in on that. The plates on a dualing tree flip back and forth from side to side when hit. Generally you have 2 shooters, one shooting the L side and one the R side. Each shooter starts with 3 plates on his side. You shoot until all of the plates are on your opponents side... or yours if you're the loser. You can shoot your opponents plate back to their side. You can go through a lot of ammo that way. What I'm talking about doing, is to put all the plates on one side and somehow cover the other side. To the shooter, it would look like a plate rack stood on end. The problem is the plates 1) don't normally disappear and 2) CAN flip back if hit. I'm just trying to figure out IF we can use it and how to use it legally. It will be semi-permanantly affixed in one of the bays and would be good fun IF we can take advantage of it within the rules. I can even see putting 1/2 the plates on the L and the other 1/2 on the right... I.e. the top 3 on the L and the bottom 3 on the R with cover on the opposite if I can satisfy the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Lee, you're on shaky ground with the dueling tree.... ....I don't believe you'd survive arbitration, in the event of a dispute.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 Yeah I think the "falling" part is going to get me ultimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Lee, I've done the same thing with a dueling tree. It is very fun, but not legal. You run into the problem that the plates will bounce back and still be visable by the shooter. Most of my local shooters agreed with me that it was fun enough to let an illegal target slide in the match every so often. The plates on our tree are even smaller than plates on a plate rack so it ups the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 They work great with rifles for 3 gun matches, but there the RO can call hits.. so even if it does bounce back.. there's no issue. I do like shooting them with pistols as well, but there's always issues when the plate doesn't swing all the way, or hangs, bounces back, etc.. as others have mentioned.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 They work great with rifles for 3 gun matches, but there the RO can call hits.. so even if it does bounce back.. there's no issue.I do like shooting them with pistols as well, but there's always issues when the plate doesn't swing all the way, or hangs, bounces back, etc.. as others have mentioned.. I bet it'd be a blast for a side match in a shoot off format with shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 The plate rack by itself is not legal. You must have a paper target or a popper to go along with it. Remember any hit on the apparatus that causes a plate to fall is REF. Also there is no calibration of a plate. A plate must fall or overturn when hit. One reason I hate most Texas Stars, including the one we have at my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 They work great with rifles for 3 gun matches, but there the RO can call hits.. so even if it does bounce back.. there's no issue.I do like shooting them with pistols as well, but there's always issues when the plate doesn't swing all the way, or hangs, bounces back, etc.. as others have mentioned.. I bet it'd be a blast for a side match in a shoot off format with shotgun. For shotguns.. it doesn't seem to work very well.. if you hit the center stem.. you can move lots of plates.. or move ones from both sides at the same time.. At IronMan (2007?) they had one you shootone with buckshot.. I think they gave up trying to score it, and just had you shoot it 6 times.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 We had a plate rack at a match once and people were hitting the bullet deflector and causing a plate to fall, which end up as REF and reshoot. That stage backed up the whole match. Haven't seen it since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 We used a dueling tree once. The targets were to the right and nothing but no-shoots to the left. More than few white pasters were used that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Plate rack OK Dueling tree as you describe the setup---probably not, but I would run it at a club match, if the plate size was within the guidelines for steel targets. Any opinions on the Polish Plate Rack that was used at area 1? (I liked it---fun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I thought the Polish Plate Rack was fun though it did cost me a reload. Something about 8 shots per position when shooting a Revo usually causing a standing reload. I wish our club would buy one but it is way too expensive for our budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hey, just make the dueling tree with pop off plates, problem over. Just like on a Texas Star. Like a Polish Plate Rack, but fixed vertical and non rotating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 We're actually debating a way to remove the existing plates with their hinge and either clamping a piece of angle iron for a regular falling plate to sit on OR making an arm to fit in the hinge replacing the swinging plates with a flat place for a falling plate. Same idea as the dueling tree but would fit the rules. Only concern I have now is a plate knocking another one off (like what CAN happen with the star). One or two and you get REF.. a bunch and it's a PITA. For shotguns.. it doesn't seem to work very well.. if you hit the center stem.. you can move lots of plates.. or move ones from both sides at the same time..At IronMan (2007?) they had one you shootone with buckshot.. I think they gave up trying to score it, and just had you shoot it 6 times.. I'm talking about a man on man side match with shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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