Can I Tumble rusty dies or dirty ammo?

Wildkow · July 4, 2009

Just starting to put together my reloading equipment and I have a couple questions. I found a Dillon XL 650 with a bunch of Lee dies that are dirty and rusty can I throw these into my tumbler and clean them this way? Also after getting rear ended in my car i found a partly open plastic bag with about 50 9mm bullets that are quite dirty. Can I toss them into the tumbler also to clean them?

Thanks

Wildkow

Duane Thomas · July 4, 2009

Since I've never done either, all I can do is theorize here by applying logice to the problem. Doing that, my answers would be no in both cases.

As far as the dies go, you have several problems. To start with, if they're very rusty there may be pitting inside the dies that would cause serious problems. Also, of the two choices you have for polishing media, corn cob and walnut shells, I think both would be problematic. I don't believe that corn cob would hit the steel hard enough to get the rust out. Walnut shell might, but it would leave the surface of the steel "frosted" i.e. rough and I believe you'd have very stiff operation of the machine as a result, as the casings were forced into and then extracted from a rough die.

As for the ammo, the idea of having loaded rounds banging around against each other inside a tumbler is enough to make me shiver. I'd suggest just shooting the stuff, THEN cleaning the casings the conventional way.

My $0.02, for what that's worth.

boz1911 · July 4, 2009

I do tumble all of my ammo after I'm finished reloading it for a number of reasons. As far as the dies are concerned? If they are already ruined it might be worth a try, but I'd look to chemical solutions first.

vetts1911 · July 4, 2009

I have found same ammo too that is covered in green. I thought about just throwing them away after pulling them because putting them in a tumbler scares the hell out of me too.

Boz can you give a couple of pointers cause I may just try this since I have over a 100 rounds like this too. I plan on just using them for practice if they clean up good.

The dies I too agree. I think that the size die may be able to recover but, the chances are the rest are beyond saving.

Just remember always hit the dies inside and out with some size lube and that will keep the press and dies with some protection from corrosion.

Graham Smith · July 4, 2009

I tumble finished ammo to remove any residue of case lube and have not (yet) had a problem. <sound of hand knocking on wood>

You can also just wash the ammo in any good detergent (I happen to like Simple Green) and then towel dry them.

MemphisMechanic · July 4, 2009

I personally won't do it, but I know lots of guys who tumble the finished ammo.

Franklin D Wolverton · July 4, 2009

It depends on the type of ammo to me.

While I personally don't do it... if it was round or flatnosed type ammo, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Spitzer or VLD type bullets... I wouldn't want to take the chance of one of those acting like a firing pin.

Frank

Wildkow · July 4, 2009

The rust on the dies appears to be fairly superficial. I picked up some Naval Jelly and I think I'll try that unless someone can think of a reason not to. As for the ammo, it's in the tumbler as we speak surrounded by pavers and brick. I'm hiding in the back bedroom and it's the Fourth of July so if there is an accidental discharge I'm hoping everyone thinks it just a firecracker! LOL!

Wildkow

Duane Thomas · July 4, 2009

Shrewd.

mildot1 · July 5, 2009

IMHO if you are tumbling loaded ammo you are asking for trouble!!!!!!!!

Tumbling can cause the powder to break down, therefore changing the burn rate. At least in large caliber rifles this has been proven to be very dangerous.

Your mileage may vary.

Mildot

Duane Thomas · July 5, 2009

Urban legend. Next!

Jon_R · July 5, 2009

I am not sure what tumbler you have but I would think something bad would happen putting a heavy steel die in my plastic bowled tumbler. Maybe it would be ok but if it keeps hitting the bowl it has a lot more mass then a piece of brass or a loaded round hitting on the bowl. If you want to try and clean the die I would look for a different option.

The Antichrome · July 5, 2009

In his reloading for competition video, B.Enos suggested tumbling loaded rounds for a few minutes to remove lube residue.

I've always done it without any issue.

Wildkow · July 5, 2009

I feel like I may have stirred the pot with my very first post! LOL! I have done a lot more reading on this and there are multiple stories leading me to believe that this issue isn't as rare as I first believed.

Maybe some common sense rules are called for . . . have at it. For the time being here are mine.

1) If they are Federal Primers or other softies, don't do it, if you don't know, don't do it. (anyone know which ones?)

2) The tumbler has to be boxed in with something hard and thick enough to stop a multiple round discharge.

3) Eye protection anytime you enter the room where live rounds are being tumbled.

4) No one else allowed into the room until the rounds have been emptied from the tumbler.

5) Remote off switch that can shut the tumbler off before entering the room where the tumbler is located. Always shut off the tumbler before entering the room.

6) Restrict the number of live rounds by a factor of 4, i.e., if your max capacity is 100 divide that number by 4 and put no more than 25 in the tumbler.

7) Limit it even more for heavier rifle rounds especially those with sharper noses.

8) Limit the amount of time in the tumbler to that which makes the round safe to fire. Even for the dirtiest round probably no more than an hour.

9) No open flames or smoking and a fire extinguisher at hand.

10) Pre-Dial 9-1 on your phone.

Sound good?

Wildkow

Duane Thomas · July 5, 2009

You honestly did all that?

John Dunn · July 5, 2009

Tumbling loaded rounds is not a big deal. I routinely tumble for 20-30 minutes to remove lube after loading. I've tumbled loaded rounds that were tarnished for 12 hours. No special precautions, and the Dillon tumbler was full.

Saami has a video out for firefighters showing that ammo detonation (where the round is unconfined) poses no threat to a fire fighter in their standard gear, contained in a plastic bowl and buffered by corncob...you'll most likely survive. All the boxing and remote switching stuff is unnecessary.

The part of the procedure that concerns me most is dumping the tumbler into the media separator, but I try for a low altitude gentle pour and have had no problems.

NoSteel · July 5, 2009

As far as the dies go here's what I would suggest: In automative restoration a tumbler is used to clean and polish small parts, fastners etc. all the time If you can get it at your auto supply or maybe even from a local body shop, I would suggest using Glass Bead abrasive. This will easily polish the dies to the finish you want without doing any harm (Dies are very hard). You will just need to be sure to clean all of the media out of the tumbler well when you are finished. I would also suggest doing 1 die at a time and checking their appearance often. You could then follow that up with walnut media afterward but it probably won't be required. When done rinse the dies out with hot water and dry with a blow dryer or air gun to insure al of the moisture is outta there.

And to add to the firestorm: I do tumble loaded rounds for a few minutes post loading. A change I make is that I put a dab of Nu Finish polish in may hands and rub onto the loaded rounds, let dry then tumble. Makes the brass a bit smoother and cycles thru the mags a lot better. Have had NO ill effects from this since only very little of the polish remains on the jacket.

Edited July 5, 2009 by NoSteel

M ammo · July 5, 2009

I feel like I may have stirred the pot with my very first post! LOL! I have done a lot more reading on this and there are multiple stories leading me to believe that this issue isn't as rare as I first believed.
Maybe some common sense rules are called for . . . have at it. For the time being here are mine.

1) If they are Federal Primers or other softies, don't do it, if you don't know, don't do it. (anyone know which ones?)

2) The tumbler has to be boxed in with something hard and thick enough to stop a multiple round discharge.

3) Eye protection anytime you enter the room where live rounds are being tumbled.

4) No one else allowed into the room until the rounds have been emptied from the tumbler.

5) Remote off switch that can shut the tumbler off before entering the room where the tumbler is located. Always shut off the tumbler before entering the room.

6) Restrict the number of live rounds by a factor of 4, i.e., if your max capacity is 100 divide that number by 4 and put no more than 25 in the tumbler.

7) Limit it even more for heavier rifle rounds especially those with sharper noses.

8) Limit the amount of time in the tumbler to that which makes the round safe to fire. Even for the dirtiest round probably no more than an hour.

9) No open flames or smoking and a fire extinguisher at hand.

10) Pre-Dial 9-1 on your phone.

Sound good?

Wildkow

I guess I've been living on the wild side.... after loading my AR ammo,, I let it run.. 2 to 12 hours... no problem.

Jim M ammo

buddy_fuentes · July 5, 2009

I feel like I may have stirred the pot with my very first post! LOL! I have done a lot more reading on this and there are multiple stories leading me to believe that this issue isn't as rare as I first believed.
Maybe some common sense rules are called for . . . have at it. For the time being here are mine.

1) If they are Federal Primers or other softies, don't do it, if you don't know, don't do it. (anyone know which ones?)

2) The tumbler has to be boxed in with something hard and thick enough to stop a multiple round discharge.

3) Eye protection anytime you enter the room where live rounds are being tumbled.

4) No one else allowed into the room until the rounds have been emptied from the tumbler.

5) Remote off switch that can shut the tumbler off before entering the room where the tumbler is located. Always shut off the tumbler before entering the room.

6) Restrict the number of live rounds by a factor of 4, i.e., if your max capacity is 100 divide that number by 4 and put no more than 25 in the tumbler.

7) Limit it even more for heavier rifle rounds especially those with sharper noses.

8) Limit the amount of time in the tumbler to that which makes the round safe to fire. Even for the dirtiest round probably no more than an hour.

9) No open flames or smoking and a fire extinguisher at hand.

10) Pre-Dial 9-1 on your phone.

Sound good?

Wildkow

Sounds like a government study and the guidelines.

All jokes aside I have thrown loaded pistol ammo in the Dillon case cleaner for years and no mishaps. I have polished my magazines and ran some old dies through, too. No problems with any of it other than you need to really clean your dies with a solvent to get the fine grit out of nooks and crannies.

Buddy

WyoBob · July 5, 2009

I've read where factory ammo is tumbled to clean it up. Saying that, it's not for me. I did try it once but, when using Lee Liquid Alox on cast bullets, it's didn't work well at all and really made a mess.

I use LLA on my cast bullets and, when the loaded rounds are deposited in the "bin" of my LNL progressive, the LLA transfers to the brass and makes things kind of sticky. I store my loaded ammo in coffee cans which also causes more sticky transfer.

When my plastic ammo boxes need refilling, I lay about 10 rounds out in a row on an old bath towel, roll them to check for case mouth cracks, rolled up lead and check primer seating depth. I then take a folded over "micro fiber" towel, lay it across the rounds and roll them back and forth while pressing down. It's amazing how good of a job the M.F. cloths do in removing the LLA stickiness.

WyoBob

jmaass · July 5, 2009

Using case lube while loading pisol rounds makes an incredible difference in the ease and repeatability of reloading (thanks for the tip, BE!), but cleaning off the lube manually afterwards made progressive reloading far less productive.

So, the subject of "tumbling" (usually meaning using a vibrating cleaner) on loaded pistol rounds comes up periodically.

Many years ago, year 2000 or before IIRC, one of the participants on the old Unofficial USPSA Mailing List decided to test it systematically. I do not recall who it was, and I recall that the result were posted here at one point or another. A quick search here this morning did not find the posting of his results. This is from memory.

He loaded one or two hundred pistol rounds, and put them in his Dillon vibrating cleaner with some media, keeping a control batch out of the "tumbler". He ran the test for three or four weeks (dont recall) 24x7, taking a test batch out at several-day intervals. So, he ended up with several test batches of loads, each loaded identically and "tumbled" for different perids of time.

He then chronoed each batch. The results?

1) No "Pop!" in the vibrating cleaner during the cleaning period. None.

2) No discernable difference in the chrono data betweeen those never "tumbled" and those "tumbled" for three oe four weeks.

Perhaps someone will recall who the origianl poster of the test was, and perhaps the actual data could be found and re-published here.

The concensus in the discussion following this test was that throwing loaded pistol rounds in your vibrating cleaner for 30 minutes to clean off the case lube was not going to represent any risk, either immediate or upon firing. If you forgot them and let them "tumble" overnight, still no problem. Manufacturers throw batches of loaded ammo into cement mixers-sized cleaners to clean them. Even if a round in corncob or walnut media were to "go off" while "tumbling", the effect would negligable (Unless you "tumbled" the round glued inside a barrel).

Most agree that the results (WRT detonation while cleaning) might change if using a real tumbler - like a rock-polishing type device that drops rounds within the cage. Likewise, rifle rounds using large extruded powder might be dangerous if done for more than 15 minutes.

I cleaned case lube off of maybe ~40,000 pistol rounds, and never had any issues (except for getting walnut bits lodged in the JHP when I switched to them).

If anyone else recalls the identity of the original experimentor, or has a better record of the details, please let us know!

Edited July 5, 2009 by jmaass

Wildkow · July 5, 2009

You honestly did all that?

Well it was my first time but I did dial 9-1 and slept in a Holiday Inn Express. <_<

Wildkow

Wildkow · July 5, 2009