Popper adjustments during a match

[ima45dv8]

The ROs need to keep an eye on steel through out the match and get it adjusted as needed. Sometimes easier said than done but others on the match staff (CRO, MD and others) should try to keep an eye on it as well.

I borrowed this statement above from the power-factor calibration thread

That raises an interesting question. It's long been my understanding that once the match starts, steel shouldn't be adjusted except as a result of a failed challenge. If it fails, make the adjustment. If not, it stays as is.

If an RO crew calls the RM to adjust a popper just because they think it's bad, but it has passed every challenge, how is that permissable? Is there language in our rulebook that allows adjusting poppers because the RO staff assigned to that stage thinks it should be done? Barring a failed calibration challenge that sets up a different scenario for the subsequent shooters based only on opinion, not ballistics.

If an adjustment is made without a failed challenge, aren't we short-changing the competitors who have previously challenged the same popper, and lost?

[coldchar]

The ROs need to keep an eye on steel through out the match and get it adjusted as needed. Sometimes easier said than done but others on the match staff (CRO, MD and others) should try to keep an eye on it as well.

I borrowed this statement above from the power-factor calibration thread

That raises an interesting question. It's long been my understanding that once the match starts, steel shouldn't be adjusted except as a result of a failed challenge. If it fails, make the adjustment. If not, it stays as is.

If an RO crew calls the RM to adjust a popper just because they think it's bad, but it has passed every challenge, how is that permissable? Is there language in our rulebook that allows adjusting poppers because the RO staff assigned to that stage thinks it should be done? Barring a failed calibration challenge that sets up a different scenario for the subsequent shooters based only on opinion, not ballistics.

If an adjustment is made without a failed challenge, aren't we short-changing the competitors who have previously challenged the same popper, and lost?

I do not adjust the steel after it has been engaged & failed to go down unless it was challenged and the shooter won.. However, if the prior conditions have not been met, if I see the steel is reacting slowly, as both RO and MD I would and have adjusted it.

[Nik Habicht]

Gust of wind comes along and moves one of the paper target stands slightly --- are you going to adjust it back to where it was? Poppers sink into the dirt and sand (and shift a little dirt and sand) every time they fall --- so why wouldn't you readjust them to present an equitable challenge? Of course you'd need to call for calibration --- but that should be happening at least daily (twice a day, if shooting a half-day format) anyway.....

[ima45dv8]

Gust of wind comes along and moves one of the paper target stands slightly --- are you going to adjust it back to where it was? Poppers sink into the dirt and sand (and shift a little dirt and sand) every time they fall --- so why wouldn't you readjust them to present an equitable challenge? Of course you'd need to call for calibration --- but that should be happening at least daily (twice a day, if shooting a half-day format) anyway.....

Regarding the bolded text above, is it in fact equitable? If no one has won a calibration challenge, then changing the state of the popper mid-stream might benefit those about to shoot at it, but penalizes those who already have and lost their challenge.

You mentioned calling for calibration. What allows the RO crew do that without a failed challenge? If permitted, please cite a rule.

[Flexmoney]

I often "manage" my steel on a continuing basis. I've had to work with some crappy stuff, and did all I could to keep it working and avoid reshoots.

For instance, if a popper is sinking into the mud and changing, I won't wait for it to fail on a shooter and ruin his/her run before I "manage" it.

[ima45dv8]

I often "manage" my steel on a continuing basis. I've had to work with some crappy stuff, and did all I could to keep it working and avoid reshoots.

For instance, if a popper is sinking into the mud and changing, I won't wait for it to fail on a shooter and ruin his/her run before I "manage" it.

Understod. Conditions that make the base for the popper inconsistent should be addressed.

But what about those that have already shot that particular course of fire? What do we base those "interim" adjustment on (from a rules standpoint)?

[Flexmoney]

That raises an interesting question. It's long been my understanding that once the match starts, steel shouldn't be adjusted except as a result of a failed challenge. If it fails, make the adjustment. If not, it stays as is.

Which rule supports that?

[mactiger]

The simple answer is there is no rule that either supports or prohibits calibrating any popper during a match, nor is there one that says the RO crew can't manage their steel. We usually shoot them to prove they fall over with a solid hit from our 115-125 PF ammo. What we don't do is calibrate them to the point of failure, then start lightening the setting until they just fall over. In reality, we don't really know what PF will take them down, just that they will fall to, say, a 121 PF hit at the bottom of the circle. Almost all the steel is "finger calibrated" prior to being shot, and there are certain tricks that you can use to make sure your steel is just about at the right setting. Since steel does change from being shot repeatedly, I believe that a good range crew should manage their steel, and that this in fact increases the consistency of the challenge from shooter to shooter.

I can't think of any reason that an RM would refuse to calibrate a popper if asked to do so, either by a competitor or the range crew, unless maybe there were so many (possibly frivolous) calibrations it was delaying the match.

Troy

[Gary Stevens]

At South Carolina a couple of years ago I was shooting Production. I noticed several shooters having trouble getting one popper down. Multiple hits on it finally took it down, so it wasn't available for a calibration test. When it came my turn, I requested that the popper in question be calibrated before I shot, since I was shooting minor PF I wanted to be sure. This request was granted, and it failed to fall. It had worked itself into the sandy soil and had a very pronounced forward lean on it.

Probably something the RO crew should have picked up on, but the shooters need to be observant also of these things. After all it is their score that is directly affected.

Gary

[Cy Soto]

When it came my turn, I requested that the popper in question be calibrated before I shot, since I was shooting minor PF I wanted to be sure.

This is good info; I was unaware that you could request a calibration check before your turn to shoot.

So, in this case, are the previous shooters granted a reshoot or are they out of luck?

[mactiger]

When it came my turn, I requested that the popper in question be calibrated before I shot, since I was shooting minor PF I wanted to be sure.

This is good info; I was unaware that you could request a calibration check before your turn to shoot.

So, in this case, are the previous shooters granted a reshoot or are they out of luck?

They'd be pretty much out of luck. One caveat: while Gary or myself or most (I hope) of the other RMI's would calibrate it for you if you asked, be aware that some people might not grant your request. There's nothing in the book that says they have to shoot a popper on request, nor is there anything that says they can't do it. To me, it's a matter of common sense and pragmatism.

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

From a "best practice" set-up perspective, Old Bridge knocked it out of the park for the 2002 A8 Factory Gun match --- they cut and drilled plywood to go under each popper as a base. The poppers were spiked into the ground through the base, and as a result didn't shift or dig into the soil during the match.....

[Flexmoney]

I still feel pretty crappy about a popper from the Area 5 match that we shot on staff day.

I reset it and mentally noted that it felt heavy. My mind went to...they probably calibrated it just this morning...and I am going to double it anyway (shooting minor). I had a couple of other things on my mind (two mikes on the previous stage and expected bad news from home, with a couple of new messages on my phone), so I didn't give it another thought...

...until my squad mate (shooting minor @ 140pf) hit it perfect and it was still standing when he was done shooting.

He won the calibration and got a reshoot (which didn't go as well as his first run ), but if I had been on the ball it would have registered with me that the popper needed attention.

For local matches, I always try to find a minor power factor shooter, dub them the Czar of Steel, and have them go through the stage setups and check the steel. (usually a finger push tells the story)

[JThompson]

First, I agree with keeping an eye on poppers. If needed change it, but I've3 been chastised for doing so.

TIP:

This goes to calibration as well...

It seems simple and you guys that have been around know this, but for the newer people. If you are using a tire/sand bag to arrest the fall then set the tire/bag so it catches on the top portion (above the calibration zone) of the popper. This will prevent the tire/bag from acting like a fulcrum and pulling the stakes out, or otherwise moving the popper when it falls. You think it would be obvious, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen it otherwise.

JT

[Pat Miles]

I often "manage" my steel on a continuing basis. I've had to work with some crappy stuff, and did all I could to keep it working and avoid reshoots.

For instance, if a popper is sinking into the mud and changing, I won't wait for it to fail on a shooter and ruin his/her run before I "manage" it.

+1 on this.

CYa,

Pat

[John Baier]

The simple answer is there is no rule that either supports or prohibits calibrating any popper during a match, nor is there one that says the RO crew can't manage their steel. We usually shoot them to prove they fall over with a solid hit from our 115-125 PF ammo. What we don't do is calibrate them to the point of failure, then start lightening the setting until they just fall over. In reality, we don't really know what PF will take them down, just that they will fall to, say, a 121 PF hit at the bottom of the circle. Almost all the steel is "finger calibrated" prior to being shot, and there are certain tricks that you can use to make sure your steel is just about at the right setting. Since steel does change from being shot repeatedly, I believe that a good range crew should manage their steel, and that this in fact increases the consistency of the challenge from shooter to shooter.

I can't think of any reason that an RM would refuse to calibrate a popper if asked to do so, either by a competitor or the range crew, unless maybe there were so many (possibly frivolous) calibrations it was delaying the match.

Troy

+1

[Tom D]

Gust of wind comes along and moves one of the paper target stands slightly --- are you going to adjust it back to where it was? Poppers sink into the dirt and sand (and shift a little dirt and sand) every time they fall --- so why wouldn't you readjust them to present an equitable challenge? Of course you'd need to call for calibration --- but that should be happening at least daily (twice a day, if shooting a half-day format) anyway.....

Why would you need another calibration if you are making it lighter? This would be good in an ideal match, but in reality if the ground is soft or wet, the poppers are going to move, the RM would not have time to keep calibrating 40 to 50 poppers all day long. I expect the staff to manage the steel.

Appendix C1 states that the RM must calibrate the poppers before the match, not required to do it every morning or twice a day. Do you want the RM to shut the range down in the middle of the day, on a half day format, for a half hour so he can get to all 12 stages at an Area match? That seems very excessive to me.

My .02

Tom

[boz1911]

I have a couple of USP's on my property that I set light (like most matches). I've been shooting some 22's out of my Smith 41 the last few days. Even with the 22 at 25 yards the poppers still fall, albeit slowly, and I'm pretty sure it scores minor.....I didn't even realize that a popper set like most matches we attend would succomb to a 22..

[Joe4d]

I have a couple of USP's on my property that I set light (like most matches). I've been shooting some 22's out of my Smith 41 the last few days. Even with the 22 at 25 yards the poppers still fall, albeit slowly, and I'm pretty sure it scores minor.....I didn't even realize that a popper set like most matches we attend would succomb to a 22..

I have a bunch of falling steel plates and was surprised at the same thing.

I think a point about poppers is being missed. I think at one time steel was used as a sorta "Power factor gauge" not anymore if ever. The chronograph station is used to determine power factor not the setting on the poppers. Poppers are targets they are supposed to fall when hit. A stage CRO has a duty to keep his stage running smoothly and part of that would be to check up on the steel to make sure it falls smoothly.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Joe4d

[Nik Habicht]

Gust of wind comes along and moves one of the paper target stands slightly --- are you going to adjust it back to where it was? Poppers sink into the dirt and sand (and shift a little dirt and sand) every time they fall --- so why wouldn't you readjust them to present an equitable challenge? Of course you'd need to call for calibration --- but that should be happening at least daily (twice a day, if shooting a half-day format) anyway.....

Why would you need another calibration if you are making it lighter?

I didn't say "make it lighter," I said readjust. Readjusting could leave the popper set heavier than it was originally set, while still making lighter than where it wound up after a bunch of shooters shot at it. The way we know that the popper is fairly set is to calibrate it --- otherwise we're just guessing....

This would be good in an ideal match, but in reality if the ground is soft or wet, the poppers are going to move, the RM would not have time to keep calibrating 40 to 50 poppers all day long.

In that case --- soft or wet ground --- perhaps this should have been addressed during the build? There are ways to mitigate those factors --- the match staff is going to do the work one way or the other, in any event.....

I expect the staff to manage the steel.

Cool --- and the rulebook actually allows for that as well --- item 1 in Appendix C1 specifically allows for "Calibration Officers," so your CROs no longer need to interrupt you, and can still calibrate the poppers whenever they've been managed, as long as you authorize them to check their own steel, authorize their blasters, and supply them with chrono ammo.....

Appendix C1 states that the RM must calibrate the poppers before the match, not required to do it every morning or twice a day. Do you want the RM to shut the range down in the middle of the day, on a half day format, for a half hour so he can get to all 12 stages at an Area match? That seems very excessive to me.

Actually that's not quite what Appendix C1 states --- you left out an important tidbit: prior to the commencement of the match and whenever required during a match. We might disagree on when that needs to be, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Nationals staff calibrating poppers before each session. I want the RM to do what he needs to do to ensure that there's competitive equity, no more, no less. If that level of work is inconvenient, the rulebook does permit delegating some of it out.....

[ima45dv8]

I expect the staff to manage the steel.

Cool --- and the rulebook actually allows for that as well --- item 1 in Appendix C1 specifically allows for "Calibration Officers," so your CROs no longer need to interrupt you, and can still calibrate the poppers whenever they've been managed, as long as you authorize them to check their own steel, authorize their blasters, and supply them with chrono ammo.....

I never thought of assigning the CRO's as Calibration Officiers.

I'm liking that idea.

[Nik Habicht]

I expect the staff to manage the steel.

Cool --- and the rulebook actually allows for that as well --- item 1 in Appendix C1 specifically allows for "Calibration Officers," so your CROs no longer need to interrupt you, and can still calibrate the poppers whenever they've been managed, as long as you authorize them to check their own steel, authorize their blasters, and supply them with chrono ammo.....

I never thought of assigning the CRO's as Calibration Officiers.

I'm liking that idea.

You do need to chrono the various guns that will be used --- but if the pits are small enough/close enough together, sharing a chrono gun/ammo supply between two or more pits might be possible also....

[ima45dv8]

I expect the staff to manage the steel.

Cool --- and the rulebook actually allows for that as well --- item 1 in Appendix C1 specifically allows for "Calibration Officers," so your CROs no longer need to interrupt you, and can still calibrate the poppers whenever they've been managed, as long as you authorize them to check their own steel, authorize their blasters, and supply them with chrono ammo.....

I never thought of assigning the CRO's as Calibration Officiers.

I'm liking that idea.

You do need to chrono the various guns that will be used --- but if the pits are small enough/close enough together, sharing a chrono gun/ammo supply between two or more pits might be possible also....

Sharing one setup across several stages/bays was what I ws thinking.

[Carmoney]

In that case --- soft or wet ground --- perhaps this should have been addressed during the build? There are ways to mitigate those factors --- the match staff is going to do the work one way or the other, in any event.....

I had to chuckle when I read this, remembering the 2007 L/P/R Nationals in Tulsa, where some of the steel poppers would literally disappear completely under standing water after they dropped with a splash!

[tad]

This is a GREAT thread. At Mississippi this year this exact situation came up. There was a stage that had a very stubborn popper, every production shooter on our squad had to engage and hit this popper at least 3 times before it would go down. The way the stage was set up you had to knock down this popper to engage one behind it. Even though the squad in front of us complained and every production shooter and a couple of limited shooters on our squad complained the RO refused to calibrate or adjust the popper claiming that it had to fail and be challenged before he could do anything about it. I am glad to see that common sense has prevailed on this subject. Thank You!!!