Moving out of a shooting box or position....

[PistolPete]

I got into a discussion with a few shooters last night and thought I would see what people think here. Typical situation:

You're starting a stage and the first target needs to be shoot from a shooting box or fault line or whatever.

Here is what I do:

Buzzer goes off, I will draw and start leaning forward lifting my back leg and break the 2 shots while I'm leaning forward starting my momentum down range. Before my right foot is planted (I'm a righty) I will break the 2 shots while pushing off with my LEFT leg (lead leg) and then rush forward to where ever the next position or target is etc. I think this is the most efficient way to start this string. Obviously, variations of range design etc. will dictate different strategies but for this basic stage I think this makes the most sense.

The other thought of the 2 other shooters (one is also a Master shooter) says that you should push off with the back leg. They say that you rear leg is stronger which allows you to push harder and get moving more rapidly from being stopped. I say this is backwards because I'm already able to get my shots off WHILE I start moving causing a MORE fluid action than standing there taking the 2 shots and THEN pushing hard with the rear leg to get your body moving. Starting and stopping take up most of your time while shooting.

PLUS, if you were running track and were at the starting line you will push off with the FRONT foot not the rear to get your body moving.

So, let's debate:

[lugnut]

Pete- if you have already leaned forward so your center of mass is in FRONT of your front foot then yes you would be pushing off your front foot. However if your center of mass is BEHIND your front foot there is no way you can PUSH off of your front foot. I think this is where the confusion lies.

[PistolPete]

When you normally shoot MORE of your weight is on your FRONT foot. When you draw the gun you start leaning FORWARD putting the center of mass IN FRONT of your lead foot. Your momentum carries you FORWARD and your rear leg will start moving forward at this time. You take your shots and you're off.

You don't keep more weight on your back foot cause it's too slow. Now you can't lean forward so you're standing still while you're shooting and you already lost a 1/2 second. GAME OVER!!!

[38supPat]

There is no technically "right" answer. It depends on the difficulty of the shot. Is it 5 yds or 25yds? B zone or full target? No shoots on it? Depending on the situation you may want to leave either way. And a lot of it comes down to style and body build.

Your best bet is always put yourself on the timer and practice it both ways. You'll find what you prefer, and you'll have a backup plan...

[lugnut]

When you normally shoot MORE of your weight is on your FRONT foot. When you draw the gun you start leaning FORWARD putting the center of mass IN FRONT of your lead foot. Your momentum carries you FORWARD and your rear leg will start moving forward at this time. You take your shots and you're off.

You don't keep more weight on your back foot cause it's too slow. Now you can't lean forward so you're standing still while you're shooting and you already lost a 1/2 second. GAME OVER!!!

If you noticed... John stands more upright than you... maybe that's why he needs to push off his rear leg? I see what you are saying.

[Supermoto]

If you are moving while drawing, you want to keep the strong side leg planted and start with the weak side leg, that keeps the gun from moving while drawing. For me, Buzzer goes off... l draw while pushing off with my right leg, weak side leg goes forward. Unless I have to move right, then, I draw then move

[Singlestack]

Theres a thread about this somewhere on here about this. I'll see if I can dig it up.

IIRC, the preferred method the last time we talked about it was to push with the back leg.

[Singlestack]

Found it.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...l=leaving+boxes

[gunnerBU]

When y'all talk about the back leg, does that mean strong side leg or weak side?

[R.Elliott]

For a soft start, just begin moving like you would when you start walking normally; get your head moving first out past your body, and once you lean out far enough you will start to fall, at which point your LEAD foot will step forward to stop you. Walking is just a controlled fall. So just keep doing that and push off harder with the back leg if it helps in the specific situation.

If you need a hard start; just do everything the same but additionally drop your hips quickly as you shift your strong side foot back a couple of inches while driving your head forward. This gives you harder linear thrust when your object is to get from A to B fast and then shoot.

Moving the lead foot first also lets you draw before the holster is displaced by the weak side hip as it rolls forward.

Edited May 22, 2009 by R.Elliott

[G-ManBart]

There is no technically "right" answer. It depends on the difficulty of the shot. Is it 5 yds or 25yds? B zone or full target? No shoots on it? Depending on the situation you may want to leave either way. And a lot of it comes down to style and body build.

Your best bet is always put yourself on the timer and practice it both ways. You'll find what you prefer, and you'll have a backup plan...

+1

I've been working on this a lot lately....momma isn't too pleased with the shooting box on the floor in my office/shop. The good thing is I wait until she's asleep to go running around between boxes Still, I've found a couple of things that I never managed to link previously and a lightbulb or two came on. I'm heading out to the range tomorrow to refine it in live fire and look forward to seeing how well I can employ it in a match on Sat. R,

[BBoyd]

it don't matter for crying out loud, just get out of the box as fast as YOU can, if you have time to have to think about it, you're wasting time. I seen a guy slip one time, get up and still shoot the stage faster than 97% of the other shooters in the match. I don't think he was thinking what leg shoud he have used to get back upright.

[pjb45]

Actually it does matter. It is one of the most important aspects of getting better. Every GM I have talked with over these past 3 years, has emphasized over and over again, the importance of knowing HOW to do it right. The what is easy, the HOW is the most hardest part. TGO got to where he is by analyzing every aspect of shooting. He and BE would talked for hours about the smallest detail. They would experiment to see what caused improvements.

Look at Steve Anderson's books, he talks about trimming a tooth pick with a chain saw. Todd J talks about his techniques of leaving and entering a box. Matt B does the same thing. Their techniques may be different, but they spent the time analyzing exactly what was the best method and then burned it into their minds.

Granted there are a lot of naturally talented people who can do the HOW without much thinking. But to continuously improve, you need to analyze, evaluate, learn.

[Singlestack]

Found it.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...l=leaving+boxes

[burningsquirrels]

There's a 'pro army marksmanship' video on youtube about shooting on the move... that or a Blackhawk video with Todd Jarrett. one of them covers box movement.

In this picture, I needed to move right while reloading. The movement is 90 degrees to the right about 10 yards.

I dropped my weight off of my right leg to prep me for the launch and lower my center of gravity, while bringing my left over, and I'm pushing off with my right. I think my right leg is extending out in this picture.

Edited June 12, 2009 by burningsquirrels

[38supPat]

Actually it does matter. It is one of the most important aspects of getting better. Every GM I have talked with over these past 3 years, has emphasized over and over again, the importance of knowing HOW to do it right. The what is easy, the HOW is the most hardest part. TGO got to where he is by analyzing every aspect of shooting. He and BE would talked for hours about the smallest detail. They would experiment to see what caused improvements.

Look at Steve Anderson's books, he talks about trimming a tooth pick with a chain saw. Todd J talks about his techniques of leaving and entering a box. Matt B does the same thing. Their techniques may be different, but they spent the time analyzing exactly what was the best method and then burned it into their minds.

Granted there are a lot of naturally talented people who can do the HOW without much thinking. But to continuously improve, you need to analyze, evaluate, learn.

TGO got to where he is by analyzing every aspect of shooting. He and BE would talked for hours about the smallest detail. They would experiment to see what caused improvements.

This is something to pay attention to, the top guys are always analyzing and working on these things. Continuously. So should you. There is a tendancy to follow the leader (or WWED). But you need to work on it to understand it. You need to try different ways and experiment to find out what works for YOU. Put it on the timer. Recently we have seen and heard the comment "I don't have to put it on the timer because GM "X" did and now I do what he does." Well I guarantee GM "X" is still putting it on the timer to find better ways. About the worst thing you can tell yourself is "Ok, now I know how to move in/out of a box"

[eric nielsen]

Like Pat said. Use a timer & put numbers on reality. A lot of us just assure ourselves that we have the Best Way without proof.

During my Exile from all Life other than Year 1 of pharmacy school, I used the small amount of shooting-related time to work on one thing only & that was movement. Which meant:

1 - move with only a stopwatch or stopwatch plus 2.5-lb weigh in my hands

2 - move with only the Open gun - to gauge how much dot-wobble happens leaving and entering positions

Repeat 1 then 2 above, many times.

I found a lot of things similar to what DP40 worked on starting in 2005. There was almost no situation where leaving with the trailing leg [crossing over] didn't come out ahead by a few tenths on the stopwatch. You only have to count steps and assign 0.2 to 0.3 seconds to each step to see what I mean.

One exception was backing out of doorways or other obstructions. That usually meant drop-stepping as mentioned above many times. Also, when looking at videos of Grauffel, he almost always drop-steps, no cross-over, so there's that to consider.

One thing that speeds up MY movement [you have to find your own Best Way] is to use the weight of the gun - mine is about 3.5 lbs fully loaded, rarely needs a mag change - to start your balance shift early. I really give the gun a good yank while tucking my elbows back from the shooting position to leave. I find that even works well to the left, with the off-hand absorbing the weight shift and also keeping the muzzle pointed downrange. It works better for me than taking the left hand off & swinging the arm.

With movement + mag changes, I can still get some gun-weight help to start moving to the right. To the left, not at all.

The less your gun weighs, the more you mag-change, the less this helps you, I'm guessing. Also I have very long arms and long legs for my height, if this isn't you, there may be less benefit to crossing over or using gun weight to tip you over toward your next position. But if you haven't tried it, or you haven't tried TJ's very unique way, or Max's way, etc - you're missing out.

I found things about entering a box too but that would be thread drift...

Edited June 13, 2009 by eric nielsen

[38supPat]

I found things about entering a box too but that would be thread drift...

I generally find that there is more time to be found in entering a box vs. leaving a box.

[nitetrane98]

Though the balance might not be quite the same in shooting and sprinting, I think you're on the right track. Much like stealing second base, if you move your right foot first, you are no closer to second base than you were before you started. A crossover step will always get you to where you're going faster. Now, I'm a lurker here and don't know much about shooting on the move, but I do know something about stealing bases. I would guess that unless it upsets your shooting balance too much it's always better to move your furthest away from the direction you want to go foot first.

[38supPat]

The trick is to get the body mass moving. A sprinter, or a base runner will tend to be in a much more low aggressive position before starting. To exagerate the point, try to steal base starting with both feet together, it's not so easy to get the body mass moving. In this case you need to either step off with the foot closest to the direction of travel or kick one leg back or cross over and see what nets you the best time. Now when we are shooting our typical shooting stance is not quite this bad, but not nearly as quick to leave as a pure sprint position.

[Jasonub]

heres a video of what i do

[little_kahuna]

If you can pull the shot while "falling" (leaning) out of the box, do it, because you'll have some momentum before you actually start to move to the next position. If you are falling out of a box and moving to your right, then your left foot would step out first, and you'd push off (almost hopping) with the ball of your right foot.

If you have to suddenly/abruptly move out of a position, then it's different. Say you had to shoot a +20yd plate rack, then move to another position, I push off with my trailing/back foot. So, say i have to do a hard/abrupt exit, moving to the right out of a box, i'll turn my right foot (on my heel) towards the next shooting position, shifting weight back to the ball of my left foot, while stepping with the right and driving with the left, i leave the box, moving towards a position on my right. So it's like rotating on the ball of your left, and heel of your right foot, and your right foot steps first.

That's how I do it. Then again, it works differently for different people.

If you don't like the way i do it, then take it up with Travis, he taught me how, and he just won Standard WS, so what does he know?