Runaway shooter

[rtr]

So this situation was described to me as happening at a local match, I wasn't there but curious what people think.

It involves a BE member, not posted to attack him or embarass him, just curious as an RO what one would do.

Shooter comes to the line, gets the make ready command, loads his gun, holsters is gun all is good. Shooter remember he forgot his camera (presumably to videotape his run) in his bag, runs behind the firing line grabs camera and returns.

So what if any penalty should he suffer? The RO should stop him before he moves, but lets just assume he is lightning fast and the RO just can't say anything in time.

[JThompson]

So this situation was described to me as happening at a local match, I wasn't there but curious what people think.

It involves a BE member, not posted to attack him or embarass him, just curious as an RO what one would do.

Shooter comes to the line, gets the make ready command, loads his gun, holsters is gun all is good. Shooter remember he forgot his camera (presumably to videotape his run) in his bag, runs behind the firing line grabs camera and returns.

So what if any penalty should he suffer? The RO should stop him before he moves, but lets just assume he is lightning fast and the RO just can't say anything in time.

You can not leave the COF with a loaded firearm.

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

Edited May 7, 2009 by JThompson

[steel1212]

I love that picture!

but yes, DQ is required.

[hf219]

Complacency, not a good thing to have on a range with a loaded gun! H!

[vluc]

That it is a BE member, with all the discussion on safety and following the rules that we do here on what is, arguably, the pre-eminent competition shooting site, is disturbing as the standard should be set here.

Hard to preach to do what we say when we don't.

[rtr]

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

So is what this competitor did "Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer." 10.5.13, if so that justifies the DQ, but if not how does one justify the DQ?

[dqshooter]

The Dq is justified, once the "make ready" command is given and the shooter loads the gun, he or she is there until cleared to leave by the RO on the stage.

here is a situation for you, the shooter had forgotten several mags at his bag and after the make ready was given he realized after he had loaded and holstered. He asked and the RO gave permissionm to return to his bag and get the mags. He took two steps out of the box and dropped a loaded gun tward the crowd of on deck shooters. Some times it is the worst case that we need to look for as RO's.

I have had similar situations happen, my personnal take is to have someone else get the camera and bring it to the shooter, I doubt he was going to carry it while shooting, or clear the shooter and have the on deck shooter step if they are ready an put the shooter back into the order. This sport is supposed to fun, I think we can do this safely and with the max fun allowable. There are two types of shooters; those that have been DQ'd and those that will. hope this helps.

[matt2ace]

The Dq is justified, once the "make ready" command is given and the shooter loads the gun, he or she is there until cleared to leave by the RO on the stage.

here is a situation for you, the shooter had forgotten several mags at his bag and after the make ready was given he realized after he had loaded and holstered. He asked and the RO gave permissionm to return to his bag and get the mags. He took two steps out of the box and dropped a loaded gun tward the crowd of on deck shooters. Some times it is the worst case that we need to look for as RO's.

I have had similar situations happen, my personnal take is to have someone else get the camera and bring it to the shooter, I doubt he was going to carry it while shooting, or clear the shooter and have the on deck shooter step if they are ready an put the shooter back into the order. This sport is supposed to fun, I think we can do this safely and with the max fun allowable. There are two types of shooters; those that have been DQ'd and those that will. hope this helps.

+1

I had a similar situation as an RO when the shooter realized that he had empty mags on his belt. He asked to go back and get his loaded mags. I made him unload and show clear and moved him down in the shooting order.

[BayouSlide]

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

So is what this competitor did "Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer." 10.5.13, if so that justifies the DQ, but if not how does one justify the DQ?

As dqshooter said. 8.3.1.1 covers leaving the shooting box after "Make Ready". 10.3.1 covers disqualification for safety infractions or other prohibited actions.

Curtis

[Joe4d]

Gonna give an a number one to unload and show clear, and move down the firing order.

I think the rule has been pretty well presented, DQ

Side note. I have issues with cameras. Well actually not the cameras but rude self centered shooters that delay matches and dont do their fair share of pasting because they are fiddle farting around with cameras. I imagine there are some who can film themselves that dont have these issues. Human nature being what it is I probably only noticed the butthead ones.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Joe4d

[boz1911]

After the shooter has been rounded up and the UASC command has been given, ask him to pick me up a Peanut Buster Parfait while he's at the DQ.

[kgunz11]

After the shooter has been rounded up and the UASC command has been given, ask him to pick me up a Peanut Buster Parfait while he's at the DQ.

[Sterling White]

but lets just assume he is lightning fast and the RO just can't say anything in time.

Whoa!

The RO should be prepared to handle ANY situation that may arise once the shooter has been given the make ready signal.

A simple verbal command "STOP" would have prevented speedy gonzales from ordering up a Peanut Buster Parfait.

[VegasOPM]

The shooter would be in the wrong, but the RO should be lambasted as well. "STOP!" followed by "unload and show clear" along with "drop him down a couple of places" (to the scorer) should be the extent of it.

[AlamoShooter]

To adjust you perspective , like Re shoots, DQ are something that is -Required- not so much something to be justified.

[JThompson]

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

So is what this competitor did "Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer." 10.5.13, if so that justifies the DQ, but if not how does one justify the DQ?

10.5.13 is just at the end of the rule I quoted... That's just the way it's written in the rules... Once the shooter has left the COF with a loaded gun he is no longer under the control of the RO and it's no different that than having a loaded handgun without being instructed to do so. He is DQed for unsafe gun handling, leaving the COF with a loaded handgun.

8.3.1.1 Was not put there to cover this, it was actually put in the rule book so the shooter didn't pull his pistol and run around the stage air gunning. In other words, they put it there so the shooter can't use his gun as the prop for gaming the stage. I was told guys were not only taking a sight picture, but moving through the COF with their guns pointing at targets. That is why the put 8.3.1.1 in. At least that's what I was told by one RMI who had a say in how the rule is written.

JT

Edited May 8, 2009 by JThompson

[splashdown]

I had a similar situation as an RO when the shooter realized that he had empty mags on his belt. He asked to go back and get his loaded mags. I made him unload and show clear and moved him down in the shooting order.

That's the right course of action. A similar question came up during my CRO correspondance course. If there are only side fault lines, which extend to infinity, and the competitor remained between the imaginary lines, he didn't leave the COF. Be sure to put rear fault lines to define the shooting area of your COF, or else the shooter may win his arb.

splash

[JThompson]

I had a similar situation as an RO when the shooter realized that he had empty mags on his belt. He asked to go back and get his loaded mags. I made him unload and show clear and moved him down in the shooting order.

That's the right course of action. A similar question came up during my CRO correspondance course. If there are only side fault lines, which extend to infinity, and the competitor remained between the imaginary lines, he didn't leave the COF. Be sure to put rear fault lines to define the shooting area of your COF, or else the shooter may win his arb.

splash

I hadn't thought of that one.... swhy I love this forum.

Thanks

Splash

[mactiger]

I'll chime in here. After receiving LAMR, the competitor may not move away from the start location unless he's under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. There is no provision in the rules for DQ'ing a competitor under the circumstances listed in this thread. It's the RO's responsibility to keep the competitor at the start location or to supervise him on his trip to the range bag, etc. STOP is the proper command, with further action dictated by the competitor's needs: someone can hand him his towel or magazines or bag, or the RO can have him UASC and then call the range clear and get another shooter to the line. 10.5.13 does not apply in this instance. The competitor has been issued the LAMR command, and can have a loaded gun--it's the RO's responsibility to direct and control his actions. Now, if the competitor does not comply with the STOP command and return to the start location, a DQ under 10.6.1 might be warranted.

10.5.13 means that a competitor can't have a loaded gun unless directed to do so by the RO, nor can he walk around unsupervised, but the RO should be in control in this situation, not the competitor.

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor

must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

5.7 Malfunctions – Competitor’s Equipment

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Note that under 8.3.1.1, the rule says that the competitor

must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer, but it specifically does not state a penalty for this, because the RO needs to be in control of the situation.

This happened at the Single Stack last weekend. A shooter forgot his magazines, and wanted to make a trip to his range bag after LAMR. He made it a step or two, but I stopped him. Once we determined that he was not prepared to make his attempt at the COF, he got UASC, and we moved somebody else up, letting him go get his magazines and ammo and prepare to shoot.

Troy

[Micah]

I could not agree more with Vegas and Troy. A good RO will prevent this from happening with a well placed "STOP" and further instruction.

[JKSNIPER]

Keep it in perspective guys.

While I agree that its a potential safety issue the weapon WAS in a holster.

Not like he had it in hand and then said to himself "Oh yeah.....Go get the camera."

Also how many times have I read here about guys who are good guys here and safety conscious having a bad day or making a "whoopsie" and getting DQ'd?

ANYONE can make a mistake, have a bad day, have a "brain fart".

This guy was obviously wrapped around the axle in his head and probably didn't even realize he had committed a DQable offense.

By all means stop the shooter have him/her ULSC but to then give a lecture or "lambaste" the RO or the shooter?

I'm sure the clear majority of guys when given the ULSC command will immed realize what they did and not further correction would be needed...he'll be embarassed enough on his own.

The RO was probably taken totally by surprise as well.

I'm sure he'll be ready for anything from now on.

JK

[dqshooter]

It does seem to me that the RO was taken by surprise an the shooter just left the box and didn't say anything. If the RO gives permission to the shooter it is a different situation altogether. No one is out there trying to DQ shooters and if they are they probably shouldn't be an RO. I can think of a few that might need to remove the stick and loosen up some, after all this is fun, right.

JKsniper is correct everyone has bad days and makes kmistakes, it's the one that don't learn from them that are the problem. I have a couple bad experiences DQ'ing a shooter or two. It just happens, sometimes you pull the shooter off to the side talk to them about the issue and just move on.

[rishii]

Keep it in perspective guys.

While I agree that its a potential safety issue the weapon WAS in a holster.

years ago, I was ROing a shooter, gave LAMR command. shooter does so, assumes the start position by placing his hands on a barricade that was wet from a passing shower. he says something about a towel to me and takes off to his range bag, gets his towel, turns around and his gun falls out of his unlocked holster. I DQed him for the dropped gun.

although it may seem trivial, it can be a big safety issue.

[splashdown]

Well, the actual scenario in my CRO class was a shooter that fired the first mag, then realized all the other mags were in the range bag. "Back it Up!" and he went back to his range bag to get more mags. No rear fault line and he remained between the two side fault lines that extend to infinity....

[dqshooter]

Well, the actual scenario in my CRO class was a shooter that fired the first mag, then realized all the other mags were in the range bag. "Back it Up!" and he went back to his range bag to get more mags. No rear fault line and he remained between the two side fault lines that extend to infinity....

Holy crap, did he have his gun out when he left the stage. Were ther other shooters around. Was his range bag within the berms. Just because fault line extend to infinity does not mean you can run anywhere on the range as long as you do not cross the lines. sound like a clear case of unsafe gun handling and poor judgement. The point could be argued that he was in the shooting area, but it aklso goes to the fact that if you put everything in the stage discription that you cannot do, it would take all day to read. Sounds like a DQ and $100.00 for ARB if the shooter want to argue that one. I do not know of two many people that would agree that leaving a stage to get more mags after you have begun shooting is safe.