sslav Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) I occasionally read this type of a statement and it always confuses me. What do people mean when they say "(gun) does not point right for me"? I understand that grip angles and weight balance may differ. But isn't that just a question of getting used to it? I can go from a G-35 to a 1911 and back with a handful of indexes. And they both point just fine. Is it simply the fact that I am not that advanced of a shooter to where it would become a factor for me? Edited April 3, 2009 by sslav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think the only time it will matter is for point shooting. We don't do a lot of that within the sport but it is important for self defense. I have a personal problem with the "G" pistol as well but it is MY problem, not the pistols. If I were to take the time to shoot one every so often I might get used to the grip angle. I just don't need to with my M&P I get the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I suspect some people are just more finicky. I compete with my 1911 but carry a G30. I shoot both fairly well but its always an adjustment, and I definitely like shooting my 1911 better. Sight picture acquisition is always a bit slower those first few rounds going back to the glock. Don't pull the trigger until the front sight is where you want it and its not a problem. It's just something for people to gripe about as a difference between guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The "does not point right for me" thing bit me badly last week at the Steel Nationals. I took along my S&W .22 for the rimfire class on Thursday and after a "few" years of shooting 1911s in competition, the grip angle on the .22 pointed the gun too high for quick sight-acquisition using a red dot. It was an eye-opening experience, and you have a point that after a few "indexes" I realized I had to point the thing at the ground (in comparison to a 1911) in order to find the dot. So my NPA was totally different from the years of 1911 shooting. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Don't knock it if it works for you!! To me, a gun that "points right" doesn't require much if any work to point where I want it to. I can pick up a 1911/2011/Para/ect, or my CZ and variants and easily hit a 8" x 8" target at 20 to 25 feet without having to try. Grip the gun, bring it up and it's on target. Hand me a Glock and you could stand there and I wouldn't hit you like that. Sure I can shoot one with a little work but they don't just point for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The point thing isn't too much of a problem for me, since I try to stay w/ one platform at a time, and don't mind taking a little time to make the transition to a new one only once in a long while. It doesn't take me too long anyhow. More of an issue for me is fit. With small hands some guns simply don't fit me and never will. I struggled with that my first year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirpy Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I have been competing with a 1911 style pistol for over 25 years. I am used to that grip angle. When I started, Glock didn't exist. When I pick up a Glock it points more like a revo for me. If I had tried transitioning from a revo instead of a 1911 it would have been easier. I can transition to a Glock now, but it takes a bit. Since I don't own one it doesn't matter, but if I did I would not hesitate to use it for carry or competition. FWIW Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) If you can bring the gun up and then push out then there should be much of an issue no matter what gun you use. If you just throw it up and expect it to be there you will have more of an issue from one platform to another. It's an issue for me because my wrist is so bad that it doesn't like to be bent back at it is when you bring it up closer to the chest and push out. As my wrist has gotten worse I find my index is off because I am not able to bring it up tight and push out... I have to bring it more up at the end of the push, so it's taking me longer to adjust at the end. The key is the push as it allows you to get the sights before you are anywhere near taking the shot. JT Edited April 3, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Anyone who says the "gun doesn't point" is really saying "I can't shoot and need something to blame for not using my sights". You have to be pretty "advanced" to get the that excuese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 When people say X gun doesn't point well for them I think all they are saying is that particular gun doesn't index well for them. It has absolutely nothing to do with the gun being bad it has everything to do with the person being used to shooting a certain grip angled gun. I shoot 1911/2011 and a Glock doesn't point well for me in the start. Yes I could spend a little bit in dry fire and be all over it but a XD points just like a 1911/2011 to me. If somebody is blaming the gun for their poor shooting that isn't even a bad excuse for a their problem its just not right. They didn't put the time into the gun to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 its a thing that comes back to the beginning again. In the begining it does not mater much, in the middle of development it maters a bunch, for a top shooter it maters less. as a shooter progresses a familiar 'point' is important. and thin to get the sub 1 second draw and hits (the Point) is important, and as you progress more that need is less. a top guy can pick up a strange gun and make it work for him in a mater of minutes. Rifle & shotguns are normally a mater of com forming to the set-up. Or with your own gun it bing set-up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Anyone who says the "gun doesn't point" is really saying "I can't shoot and need something to blame for not using my sights". You have to be pretty "advanced" to get the that excuse. I can shoot just about anything using the sights as I'm sure most people on this forum can but if I just "point" certain guns the sights are pretty close to lined up while others are way off. Those are the guns that don't point well for me. The use of sights doesn't have anything to do with the natural pointing of a gun in my opinion. Go to the gun shop or a friends house and ask to see something out of the safe / case that you've never picked up. Close your eyes, grip the gun and raise it into your shooting position and then open your eyes and look at the sights. Are they lined up or off? If they line up, then that gun "points" for you. If they are off, that gun does not "point" for you. I shot a M&P not too long ago for the first time. I'd never even handled one. I picked it up and it was just there. It pointed for me. Other guns do not do that for me such as Smith revolvers, Glocks, and XD's. Yea, I can shoot any of them but I have to work to find the sights, they aren't just "there". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I can shoot anything that I spend the time training on. (actual Training = putting in the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshF Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 (edited) I've been switching up between Glock, 2011, 1911 this winter and have seen no issues either. Guess I'm in the Minority Pretty sure my guns shoot where the sights are aligned Edited April 3, 2009 by JoshF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I can shoot anything that I spend the time training on. (actual Training = putting in the time) I'd almost be willing to bet anyone can, but why would you when there are so many choices? What's the point in choosing Gun A that does not naturally point for you when Gun B does? If I did one or two indexes with Gun A and Gun B and Gun A was naturally on target I'd buy Gun A. If you were to do the same and Gun B was on target would you buy Gun A? I sure wouldn't. I don't want a gun that doesn't naturally point where I want it to. Sights and training time do not play into a gun that "points". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I can shoot anything that I spend the time training on. (actual Training = putting in the time) I'd almost be willing to bet anyone can, but why would you when there are so many choices? What's the point in choosing Gun A that does not naturally point for you when Gun B does? If I did one or two indexes with Gun A and Gun B and Gun A was naturally on target I'd buy Gun A. If you were to do the same and Gun B was on target would you buy Gun A? I sure wouldn't. I don't want a gun that doesn't naturally point where I want it to. Sights and training time do not play into a gun that "points". You have never spent much time around shot gun shooters. many spend $5,000 & over $10,000 on a gun some times and keep trying to make it work out of vanity when they already have one that shoots fine for them. Any one that says it does not mater what a gun looks like is not being honest, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I can shoot anything that I spend the time training on. (actual Training = putting in the time) I'd almost be willing to bet anyone can, but why would you when there are so many choices? What's the point in choosing Gun A that does not naturally point for you when Gun B does? If I did one or two indexes with Gun A and Gun B and Gun A was naturally on target I'd buy Gun A. If you were to do the same and Gun B was on target would you buy Gun A? I sure wouldn't. I don't want a gun that doesn't naturally point where I want it to. Sights and training time do not play into a gun that "points". You have never spent much time around shot gun shooters. many spend $5,000 & over $10,000 on a gun some times and keep trying to make it work out of vanity when they already have one that shoots fine for them. Any one that says it does not mater what a gun looks like is not being honest, You win that one, haha! No, I haven't spent any time around game shotguns other than turkey shoot guns. My dad shoots bolt action shot guns that weigh close to 45 pounds for the "game" he plays... not a moving target one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmwater Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I think it is a chicken or the egg thing. I would go one step further and say whichever gun you spend Time+Training with first will probably dictate which gun "points right" for you. Shooter A has spent 20 years shooting a 1911 grip angle and, guess what? It points better for him than a Glock does. I have shot a Glock for 13 years and Guess what? I point low with a government model if I don't look at the sights. If my department starting issuing an M&P or XD or 1911, I would change my game gun tomorrow though and just drill train the new gun to death. The real shame in all this would be for a new shooter to come in and make the decision based on their "Natural point of aim" when they are holding the pistol wrong and low on the grip in the first place.... That is not directed at the posters here who are probably more experienced than I am. I don't blame a guy for picking whatever feels best on first impression. Jumping from gun to gun looking for one that will shoot itself is time poorly spent. I am not as knowledgeable at Zen riddles as many on this website, but one parable I heard years ago comes to mind. Two settlers in a new area settled new ground. The first settler had the most choice piece of ground and began to dig a well. Then he saw a better place to dig a well and moved his dig there. Then another.......... The second settler had the deepest groundwater around. He picked a spot at random figuring one was just as bad as another and dug til he hit water...... long before his fickle friend did..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 We don't do a lot of that within the sport but it is important for self defense. So we aim when speed and accuracy counts for score just not for life and death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I have been considering this a lot lately. I have been primarily shooting Glocks for a long time. I rely on my index to find the sights quickly. When I switch over to my 1911, it takes me an extra 1/4 second aligning the sights- until I get used to it. Not a huge issue, but definitely noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 (edited) When people say X gun doesn't point well for them I think all they are saying is that particular gun doesn't index well for them. It has absolutely nothing to do with the gun being bad it has everything to do with the person being used to shooting a certain grip angled gun. I shoot 1911/2011 and a Glock doesn't point well for me in the start. Yes I could spend a little bit in dry fire and be all over it but a XD points just like a 1911/2011 to me. If somebody is blaming the gun for their poor shooting that isn't even a bad excuse for a their problem its just not right. They didn't put the time into the gun to start with. +1 I can grab any 1911/2011 and have it index almost perfectly without thought. I can do the same with an XD or an M&P. I've owned a Glock for 15+ years and shot them exclusively several times a week, plus a bunch of dry fire, for three months and they still didn't index perfectly for me. I can and do shoot them just fine, but it will never, ever index as effortlessly for me as a 1911. I have a friend was was a full time firearms instructor for a number of years and said "I'm a Glock guy".....he once told me "I have to tell myself to finish the draw to get the front sight down where it should be"....they index high for him and that's all he shoots! Edited April 4, 2009 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I think it is a chicken or the egg thing. I would go one step further and say whichever gun you spend Time+Training with first will probably dictate which gun "points right" for you. Shooter A has spent 20 years shooting a 1911 grip angle and, guess what? It points better for him than a Glock does. I have shot a Glock for 13 years and Guess what? I point low with a government model if I don't look at the sights. +1. My buddy who always shoots 1911s said Glocks point high. To prove it he indexed with his eyes closed and said when he opened his eyes the Glock front sight was too high. Then he had me do it. But I’ve always shot Glocks. So when I opened my eyes with the Glock the sights lined up pretty good. When I opened them with his 1911 all I saw was rear sight with the barrel pointing at the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Slav, back when I owned other than Glock centerfire pistols, they all had some version of an arched mainspring housing or arched grip --- with a flat MSH/Grip, I'd never find the front sight...... I finally fixed the "problem" by selling off everything that wasn't a Glock.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Close your eyes, get a grip, and point the gun. Open your eyes. Sure, you can 'get used to' anything, but the difference comes down to the design of the gun. The Germans and Austrians seem to have one school of thought as to what is proper, while the US, Czechs, and others have a differing view. Nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 A bunch of good replies. Almost all speaking to the different grip angles of one gun or another. I like to look at it from this perspective: (With no disrespect for any Native Americans out there) "It ain't the arrows, It's the injun" fwiw dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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