Shawn Knight Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I just want to hurt myself!!! I swear!!! i wonder if I am EMO?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Josey, I'm not talking about what rule book says. The point is a shooter just shouldn't do it. I don't care if it's leagel or not. If you mess up chalk it up as a learning experiance. I shot a match last weekend where I hade gun problems and that's too bad for me. For me I guess better luck next month. I think a shooter like myself will sleep better at night knowing I did my best and that's it. Blacksabbath mentioned the rulebook, so I thought I would check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I would rather do poorly on a classifier than far exceed my normal score It reflects a more honest example of what you can be expected to do. And the Masters that get whupped by B and C shooters ....well they look kinda silly Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Really? Prove it... As near as we can tell, based on data gathered on the forum, etc, the HHFs in the DB haven't been adjusted since they were initially set. Otherwise, there are quite a number of classifiers that would have much higher 100% marks than they do... Sure, USPSA gives lip service to adjusting them, but in practice, it simply doesn't happen. (eta - I don't mean that to be combative... just that the notion that someone grandbagging is hurting anyone but themselves seems to be an urban legend ). Agreed. The best evidence is as Jim said when you have A-C shooters that beat Master and Grandmaster shooters. You run it and you either get it or you didn't. Anyone can have a bad day. That's how I lost a class win and a Top 5 at the Bay Bridge Classic. One gun malfunction and I zero'ed the second largest stage of the match. Now, have I done the reshoot of classifiers? Oh yeah and made sure they never counted for score. Just for my own piece of mind. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Get'em Duck Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Could you image watching a football game and on the kick return the guy slips and falls then jumps up calls time out and says he knows he can make it back for a touch down and that he wants another chance???? It would take two days to play a game of football because once word got out that it was OK to have a do over then ever one would want one. Sorry if your shoes untied or your hand are sweaty oh well prepare your self for the next time and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I don't like people sandbagging because then when a match rolls around and they beat out the guys who are legitimately in that division they are hurting those guys. Grandbagging is a stupid practice if you ask me, but if it makes you feel better about yourself to have a higher class in front of your name, go for it. It falls into the category of "you're not hurting me". I can go buy myself a plastic badge that says "Texas Ranger" on it, but it doesn't make me Chuck Norris. I don't think that the people doing this are really the ones setting the HHF so whatever. Edited March 12, 2009 by John Heiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashvillebill Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I can guy buy myself a plastic badge that says "Texas Ranger" on it, but it doesn't make me Chuck Norris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 i see some confusion. You can repeat a classifier for classification purpose only. It does not count for match score. No one is allowed to continue shooting classifiers over and over at a match. I do not a couple of grand baggers who would practice classifiers over and over at home. One guy was a section coordinator. He regularly gets waxed by B shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Really? Prove it... As near as we can tell, based on data gathered on the forum, etc, the HHFs in the DB haven't been adjusted since they were initially set. Otherwise, there are quite a number of classifiers that would have much higher 100% marks than they do... Sure, USPSA gives lip service to adjusting them, but in practice, it simply doesn't happen. (eta - I don't mean that to be combative... just that the notion that someone grandbagging is hurting anyone but themselves seems to be an urban legend ). They do tweak 'em occasionally (witness the HHFs for 'Six' and 'Seven', which were both absurd, but in opposite directions and are now closer), though I seriously doubt automatically. I don't think repeated grandbagging of a stage will realistically do anything to the HHF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 i see some confusion. You can repeat a classifier for classification purpose only. It does not count for match score. No one is allowed to continue shooting classifiers over and over at a match. I do not a couple of grand baggers who would practice classifiers over and over at home. One guy was a section coordinator. He regularly gets waxed by B shooters. You got it right. In the EasyWinScore software, this is called a ReEntry. Your first run counts for the match standing. Subsequent attempts at the Classifier only count for Classification scoring. The match organizer is charged $3(maybe $5 can't remember right now) for each ReEntry. I have done it twice when I was first getting classified. I and others I see, sometimes shoot the classifier again, but with a different division gun. I shoot limited 90% of the time, but have shot some additional classifiers with open and production to establish a classification so that when I do shoot in those divisions I am competing at my level, and not against the Unclassified shooters. Classifiers bare almost no resemblance to most stages in any match. I know many shooters that can blaze in field courses, but tank classifiers. Not grandbagging, just not very fast on the draw and standing reloads, etc. And Visa Versa. I does not matter to me in the slightest. I go to a match to test myself, have comradeship with friends, and have fun. I will place where I will place. Mark K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) This is purely an ethics question. There is nothing in the rules stopping someone from shooting a classifier a second time to attempt to bolster their classification. There is also nothing in the rules stopping a shooter from intentionally pausing for 2 seconds after a smoking hot classifier run and then popping a no-shoot in the head. Your feelings on either of these scenarios is based purely in your ethics. I have shot USPSA primarily in two different areas in the US, CO and the VA/MD/PA area. The ethics and philosophies of these two areas are quite interesting. Many of them are mirror images; people who work get access to the props to practice at their home clubs. People who don't work don't get access to the props. Others are complete 180's; squading sizes, picking up brass, etc. Their views on shooting a classifier a second time are different too; very taboo here on the east coast, but quite common in CO. Neither view point is wrong. The are simply the best selection for the location. I see other cultural differences between the two areas every day too. Ya, cultural differences. They are small, but they are there without a doubt. Being primarily from the mid-west, I can tell you for free I'm the only one at the range that says "dude" on a regular basis. In CO, MD briefs are much lighter in nature. In the east coast area, the MD briefs are more authoritative in nature. They both cover the same info. There is just a different delivery. Neither is wrong. They are both appropriate for the culture of the area. SO.... How in the hell is the USPSA, a National organization, supposed to address the different ethics of the various mixtures and cultural backgrounds into one big "everyone's happy" rule book on these ETHICAL matters? Not so simple to answer, but I think they got it right: leave the decision open for the various clubs to interpret. I have yet to see a Grandbagger determine anything in match results or classifier results other than the letters "GM" next to their name. You are absolutely diluted to believe that someone other than the smoking hot top 1% of shooters out there dictate classifer percentages. There are just too many of them that can pull off 99 to 100%'s on these classifiers regularly for the Grandbaggers to affect the statistics. I have yet to see a Sandbagger do nothing but embarrass themselves amongst their peers by intentionally tanking classifiers (regardless of where in the US they've shot). Anyone with a years experience shooting this sport can spot a sandbagger after two or three matches shooting with them. I mean really, anyone ever seen a "secret sandbagger"? If you saw them, guess they were not so secret. This is baggage. Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers mean nothing. They ultimately don't impact anyone but themselves, and getting worked up over it will do nothing but sour your stomach to a great sport, impact your attitude, and hurt your shooting. Say Woooosa, rub your ear-lobes, and then go dry fire practice. Life is too short to give a crap about this stuff. Edited March 12, 2009 by SA Friday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Really? Prove it... As near as we can tell, based on data gathered on the forum, etc, the HHFs in the DB haven't been adjusted since they were initially set. Otherwise, there are quite a number of classifiers that would have much higher 100% marks than they do... Sure, USPSA gives lip service to adjusting them, but in practice, it simply doesn't happen. (eta - I don't mean that to be combative... just that the notion that someone grandbagging is hurting anyone but themselves seems to be an urban legend ). they sure do move up the HHF's. Take 99-33 (raw deal). i had shot this in June for a 97%, the month prior to that, dirtypool had scored a 100% with the same hit factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, but repeated runs do effect the HHF in the database so they do indirectly effect you. Really? Prove it... As near as we can tell, based on data gathered on the forum, etc, the HHFs in the DB haven't been adjusted since they were initially set. Otherwise, there are quite a number of classifiers that would have much higher 100% marks than they do... Sure, USPSA gives lip service to adjusting them, but in practice, it simply doesn't happen. (eta - I don't mean that to be combative... just that the notion that someone grandbagging is hurting anyone but themselves seems to be an urban legend ). they sure do move up the HHF's. Take 99-33 (raw deal). i had shot this in June for a 97%, the month prior to that, dirtypool had scored a 100% with the same hit factor. This is not evidence that backs up the claim that grandbaggers drive up classifier scores. This is evidence that classifier 99-33 was adjusted between the May and June 08 postings. For all we know, TGO, Sevigney, Michaels, Tomassie, Tilley, etc shot this classifier at 105% the months prior to May 08 and so the percentage was adjusted appropriately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I would suspect that some people are using the designation after their name to teach classes to the unsuspecting/unitiated people. The unknowing students just think, "Cool! I am being taught by a ______" and just ASSume that's impressive. As far as the other stuff goes, I have been admonished NOT to speak of such topics on the open forum ever again. Edited March 12, 2009 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Our club is pretty strict. No reshooting a classifier in the same Division as your match gun. You only get a reshoot for the reasons listed in the rule book. You can shoot a second or more in different divisions. I sure would like the option of shooting the classifier stage a second time for a score that does not count in the match but for classification. I am not sure our club would put up with such a thing. We do not publish the classifiers in advance so people could practice them prior to the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 ...This is baggage. Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers mean nothing. They ultimately don't impact anyone but themselves, and getting worked up over it will do nothing but sour your stomach to a great sport, impact your attitude, and hurt your shooting. Say Woooosa, rub your ear-lobes, and then go dry fire practice. Life is too short to give a crap about this stuff. Well said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 they sure do move up the HHF's. Take 99-33 (raw deal). i had shot this in June for a 97%, the month prior to that, dirtypool had scored a 100% with the same hit factor. Rare - and almost certainly did not happen due to classifier submissions. Wasn't Raw Deal at a major this year? Major match HHFs are much more subject to changing HHF. Again, that wasn't the result of grand bagging... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Some of these avatars are......distracting. Drift OFF. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 This is baggage. Sandbaggers and Grandbaggers mean nothing. They ultimately don't impact anyone but themselves, and getting worked up over it will do nothing but sour your stomach to a great sport, impact your attitude, and hurt your shooting. Say Woooosa, rub your ear-lobes, and then go dry fire practice. Life is too short to give a crap about this stuff. Sean..well said..thanks.. it isn't cheating..so knock it off..we pride our sport on sportsmanship and fairness. some people can shoot stand and shoot classifiers..others can't... doesn't matter if you shoot it once, twice or three times. classes were just to make it more fun and competitive..far as I'm concerned..there shouldn't be any classes and we should shoot heads up..only HOA!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Closed for review... - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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