eric nielsen Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Feeler - Method 1. During my wife's rabbit-raising phase I realized the 2-hand grip that holds one of those buggers without breaking their bones, that works out perfect on an Open gun. Two hands, one feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Thinker. I trained my hands what to do years ago and I have no idea what that feels like. I know I broken a few safeties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerPast Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 There is likely a vacillation going on. As a thinker, I have developed a pattern of fine motor familiarity, that is a feeling that all is right. If I have the grip I want, it's familiar. At the first grip after the buzzer, if the feeling isn't right, the thinker comes back to life, to decide what is wrong. Then I am distracted to rediscover the familiar, thinking about the wrong thing at the wrong time, but hopefully, make the adjustment to regain familiarity. If all goes well then it is only a moment lost and I am back into a state of awareness of what to do now and proceed through the stage. What is weird is when the initial grip is so perfect, I am distracted by how great it feels and why don't I achieve this perfection more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Feeler for the most part... I do become a "thinker" at certain times though. I tend to focus on my grip (I'll really bear down with my support hand, 70/30) and my trigger press when shooting long tight shots with no-shoots or hard cover. What is weird is when the initial grip is so perfect, I am distracted by how great it feels and why don't I achieve this perfection more often. My "perfect" grip, when I shoot the best, is when my Glock slide is tearing grooves into hand. I am very aware of this perfect grip, due to the blood spray on my glasses, the searing sweet pain, and the A's that follow. I wish there could be a less painful "perfect grip" sometimes. Edited February 4, 2009 by sirveyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 No pain, no gain, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I was a Thinker, then found that it slowed me down and made my speed and accuracy less consistent. I found myself always thinking about my grip and trying to adjust it in the middle of a stage. Now I am a Feeler and its amazing how much faster I can build the grip and engage targets. The cool thing for me is that I am now automatically increasing/decreasing my overall grip pressure depending on the shots needed. For example, if I am engaging a series of targets that are somewhat far away and I need a relatively good sight picture my grip pressure will be about medium strength. If I am engaging a bunch of close targets that require point shooting with a marginal sight picture at a really fast speed, my grip pressure will be high strength. Like I said before though, I don't even think about it any more during the stage, it just happens. The only way I can tell the difference in grip pressure is if I watch a video of me shooting the stage and see the muzzle flip/arm pump difference between the two shooting conditions. There isn't enough time to think about your grip during a stage, it needs to just happen on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Now that I think about it I guess I am more of a feeler. During practice I do occasionally remind myself to set the strong hand deep into the gun. Also with a brake pedal on the weak hand side of my open blaster my grip appears to be pretty nuetral. I know that I adjust my grip during a stage as needed, that just seems to "happen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 [ThreadDrift] There isn't enough time to think about your grip during a stage, it needs to just happen on its own. A long time ago I had a "lights-on" moment - I realized that there isn't time to think about anything at all, after the buzzer. From that I realized where all my work needed to be done. Everything had to be perfectly mentally ready before "shooter ready." [/TD] For the most part, this thread reflects what I thought it would. That feelers do better by doing and remembering feelings, and the fewer feelings, the better. Whereas thinkers may better dissect a challenge with thought. [slightDrift] Just as I typed that I thought - some zen dude or dudet is going to come in here and say something like - So what's the difference between thought and feeling, anyway?" So for the purpose of this thread, I define thinking as a time when there are words in my head. And feeling is when the only experience present is a thoughtless awareness of something. [/sD] So a point might be, if are learning to shoot, and you know you are a feeler, don't think you have to use a 60/40 technique, just because some GM told you to. I remember reading and re-reading Percy Boomer's On Learning Gold, and everything he said just appealed to me so much. He's all about remembering and executing everything with feelings. And the more things he could do with the same feeling, the better. Cool stuff. If you're a feeler. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm52 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 When I started shooting revolvers back in the late '60s, I was taught to replicate the grip until it was second nature. I am a feeler. The only pistol I have fired with any regularity, beside .22's, is a S&W Model 629 9mm. (It was pretty and 9's were popular). With that gun I am a thinker and since having read way too much on tactical & practical shooting I use a 60/40 grip or attempt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 The Smith & Wesson Model 629 is a stainless steel version of the Model 29 .44 Magnum revolver. Sure you don't have the model number wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [slightDrift]Just as I typed that I thought - some zen dude or dudet is going to come in here and say something like - So what's the difference between thought and feeling, anyway?" I don't care for the labels. I'm not sure that I am ready to dive into the deep end of the pool here and present my perspective with rational thought or anything , but I find the labels restrictive. When I hear somebody say they are left-brained or right-brained...Type-A...feeler or thinker...whatever... I think that the is the shell that they have built up around themselves. I think it is good to know and explore that...to know our own tendencies, but I feel we can hide there and not explore all that is out there. What I am immediately hit with when somebody tells me they are right-brained (usually followed by some excuse/hurdle in their development), is that...'no, you don't just have half a brain.' We have tendencies. We also have the ability to raise above that and see things from a different perspective. Probably not ease...but, possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I guess I'd have to be: Feeler, #1 I don't remember the last time I thought about my grip but it was probably the last time I got a poor grip while practicing or shooting a classifier. Strange, but I never seem to get a poor grip on a field course...maybe somethin' to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I think it is good to know and explore that...to know our own tendencies, but I feel we can hide there and not explore all that is out there. I think you can - probably - get where you want to to go by understanding your own tendencies , and the path you take may be very different than someone who arrives at the same place, able to do the same things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm52 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 The Smith & Wesson Model 629 is a stainless steel version of the Model 29 .44 Magnum revolver. Sure you don't have the model number wrong? The mind is the first thing to go. How about Model 639. Since I had spinners on my brain and I still have 2 629s the coordination between brain and fingers was out of time! Thank you for the proof read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yer welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'm with G-man, since I don't ever remember thinking about it I must be a feeler, #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I switched guns and holsters today. I went from a single stack in a 560 to a limited in a DOH. Out of 25 draws at least four did not feel right. Then I went about to diagnosis the problem. I went a little slower for a couple of draws then started speeding up. The grip felt right then. I start out thinking about the issue then work on doing the "correct" way which proceeds to feeling state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneracin Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Im a newbie to shooting, and I have to say when I just shoot, Im a 1. Too much information overload for me to remember to do 60/40, or 70/30 etc. Now being a newbie, im erratic as hell sometimes. Im working on trying to train myself to be more automatic, no thinking at all once the gun is in hand, and have everything be more muscle memory. BTW, sorry for the hijack, but thats a beautiful Wolfie Fergus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I don't think you have to be a "thinker" to remember 60/40 or 70/30. If you are a "feeler"...just learn what it feels like ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I am a "feeler". Almost everything I do, the feeling is what sets the tone. Even mentally breaking down a stage I feel the emotions. I feel therefore I am. My grip is a feeling floating in front of my vision. I have tried the 60/40 grip and the thinking distracts me from the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 I don't think you have to be a "thinker" to remember 60/40 or 70/30. If you are a "feeler"...just learn what it feels like ? I thought about that, a lot actually. With both hands gripped together, to attempt to feel a different feeling in each hand is mentally confusing. I can't do it. Or another way of saying it - if I "feel 60" I "lose 40". To me, feeling relates to attention. It's really difficult to direct your attention to more than one place at the same time. Try this... Sit down in a comfortable, quiet place. Relax, and focus all of your attention on your belly. Now while "keeping track" of you belly, try to become aware of the feeliing in your right hand's palm. As soon as you're in your palm you lose your belly. Also, the idea behind starting this was to see if there is a relationship between whether you incline toward thinking or feeling, and how you "approach" gripping your pistol. When you are actually gripping your pistol, are you "thinking 60/40"? Probably not. Say you were instructing a brand new shooter on grip. You could say something like, "You want to grip stronger with your weak hand than with your strong hand." Or the 60/40 routine or whatever. But if the new shooter is a feeler, they may not be the best advice for them to hear. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 ...It's really difficult to direct your attention to more than one place at the same time. Try this... Sit down in a comfortable, quiet place. Relax, and focus all of your attention on your belly. Now while "keeping track" of you belly, try to become aware of the feeling in your right hand's palm. As soon as you're in your palm you lose your belly. I see that as an exercise in conscious thought. And, I would agree that we can only hold one conscious thought in our mind at a time. I don't want to be consciously thinking about my grip while shooting. Of course that is limiting. I want to train my grip so that it happens subconsciously. But, I can think of it as 70/30 or I can think of it as 50/50...or whatever. I can also feel what it is like at 70/30 or 50/50. Also, the idea behind starting this was to see if there is a relationship between whether you incline toward thinking or feeling, and how you "approach" gripping your pistol. When you are actually gripping your pistol, are you "thinking 60/40"? Probably not. I'm not thinking about the grip, because I've trained my grip to be subconscious...like walking. I don't believe that makes me a feeler (or a thinker, for that matter). ? Say you were instructing a brand new shooter on grip. You could say something like, "You want to grip stronger with your weak hand than with your strong hand." Or the 60/40 routine or whatever. But if the new shooter is a feeler, they may not be the best advice for them to hear. I believe the we tend to learn new things along the same lines we have traditionally learned other stuff. That is our comfort zone. If I know what A is, and I know what B is...if I can then relate C to A and/or B, then I can learn what C is. Also, we tend to learn from/with those that think like we do. That speak the same language. You can say to me to hold grip the gun like I was holding a hammer and driving a nail. I will get that. A super-model might not get that at all. When I am teaching, I am always wanting to know "what did you see/feel/experience?" From that, I can get insight into the students frame of mind. They may even be stuck on some other thing and not even paying attention to their grip (for instance). I want to learn where they are at and why they are there. I want to learn how they are relating to things. Sometimes, the student is in a rut/groove. And, they aren't going to get out of it own their own or by the same old means that they have always used. Then, the task becomes getting them to see/experience something from a different perspective than they are used to. (that is my 2 cents...I have 2 more so I'll do another post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Let me throw this one out there... For the years that I have been coming here, I have heard that Robbie really stresses "trigger" when he instructs. I don't know if that is the case, I've not talked with him. That is what I've read over the years though. That always made me scratch my head because I've never really given any thought or consideration to trigger. I certainly needed something along those lines when I started, because I shot a Glock low-left just like everybody else does. I don't want to be labeled a thinking, but here is my thinking... To get over milking the trigger like that, I had to realize that I was trying to handle the recoil with my strong hand. And, that same strong hand was...at the exact same time...trying to work the trigger. The harder my strong hand gripped, the more I milked the trigger. So, I had to ease up with the strong hand...but how would I handle the recoil? Well, there was this lazy old support hand...up there, not doing hardly anything. Why not have the support hand care the load (so to speak). So, I really don't ever think of trigger control too often. Perhaps "beyond" all of that... I also learned to pay attention to my front sight. And, wait a minute...doing that...any of what I just posted above became meaningless to me. Robbie's attention to the trigger feel...my attention to the grip feel...that kinda washes away. It's replaced by experiencing. The entire time, by continuously seeing the front sight during the shot...and experiencing as much as possible that is going on during that...every thing else can wash away. It becomes about a clear vision of what is desired, then observing if that is what is going on. I want the sights to look a certain way as I hold the gun...press the trigger...and then they lift in recoil. I get that feedback, and with a clear desire, my body can sort out the corrections need to stay on course. So, what I am thinking or feeling...that gives way to what I am experiencing. To quote some smart/insightful guy... "really get interested in your shooting". (whew...that was the other 2 cents. I think I need to polish those pennies a bit though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I think its hard to define exactly how/when something in your shooting stops being commanded by you consciously and transitions to becoming subconsciously controlled by your built in auto pilot, essentially becoming automated with zero effort on your part. I can tell you that when I first started shooting my conscious focus was on my grip pressure and trigger control, at some point it just became automated for me and did not require any thought to perform. The only thing I can truly say that I do different now is to stop thinking, analyzing, worrying, or commanding anything right before the buzzer goes off. I just let it all go and know that my internal auto pilot will get the job done. When I do that and let it just "happen" that is when I shoot my best. When I try to force a situation the outcome is always worse. How or when does someone have enough confidence or faith in their "auto pilot skills" to truly let go and know it will happen the way it should is very hard to explain. There isn't a hard line in the sand or switch to flip to enable that in a shooter. You really can't explain how to turn it on either. Each shooter needs to be able to turn it on for themselves. I competed in other competitive hobbies which required 100% faith in your skills for many years before starting shooting, so for me it is easy to let the auto pilot take over. For others that have never experienced that it is an elusive thing to find. Is this a thinker or feeler mentality? I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I'm really enjoying this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now