Incentives

[Rufus The Bum]

What is considered a normal incentive for people who set stages at a club match? I can only speak for our club in that the range owner gives no incentive whatsoever for stage setters. Both new shooters and stage setters pay full price. I understand that this is a volunteer sport and that if it wasn't for it's members, there would be no matches, but am I wrong in thinking that if there is no incentive for setting a stage, then why set one? I'm being asked to set to help set stages for our State Championship AND pay full price? I asked about this and got ome b.s. excuse about how we should help the club in every possible way to make money. Someone please tell me that this is just a bad club I shoot at and is not the norm.

[Skywalker]

Rufus,

I think it really depends on how the club is run.

Our own club has this policy: the club members that help us setup our own annual Italian League match get a free slot to shoot it, as well as other level I and II matches we host (usually a couple per year).

On the other hand, I know several other clubs that run things just the same way of your club.

Maybe you'd want to join this club.

[rhino]

My opinion . . .

If you help setup and tear down, shoot for free.

If you RO the whole match, shoot for free.

If you wrangle the clipboard, or do either setup or tear down, shoot for 1/2 price.

If you do the scores, shoot free forvever and get paid $1 Million.

[Garfield]

Here in NL it's common to shoot for free if you RO.

Don't know about helping set up, but I guess it's the same.

[snokid]

At my club if you help set up or tear down and SO/RO you shoot for 5.00 then the end of the year there's a 50/50 drawing.

I don't know if paying (by reducing match costs) the ro's, set up, and tear down people helps to get us help or not. It seems like it's the same 4 or 5 people every time and would do it either way.

sno

[skeeter]

joey, you can shoot for free but i'm not paying you $1 million. 100 thousand maybe, if you shoot my green glock and wear a dress

[EricW]

My experience:

People who show up very early or the night before to set up, shoot at a substantial discount.

No brownie points for clipboard duty or teardown. ALL shooters are expected to help tear down and put the gear away.

[Loves2Shoot]

Man all we get for setting up and tearing down and RO'ing the the chance to shoot.

It is sad having to bribe people to lend a hand

[Jon Merricks]

For local matches I think you should set up, tear down, RO, score sheet everything else and still pay full price.

At a State or Area level if you set up and I mean set up not help set up, this includes gathering all the materials that you will need and do everything from ground up and work the stage you should shoot for half price.

One of the biggest problems in this sport is when you here people say well what is in it for me.

[Loves2Shoot]

Well said Jon.

Pay it forward.

[Ron Ankeny]

I can only speak to the club level. When I became addicted to IPSC I co-chartered a club, built all of the target stands, built the walls and props, fabricated the swingers and drop turners, and I paid for the materials and the first batch of targets out of my own pocket. Others scrounged up membership, set up the limited liability corporation and took care of misc. administrative duties. It was about 8 months before the club had enough money to pay me back. In the beginning there was four or five of us doing 90 per cent of the work. Here it is 2 and a half years later and it's still the same four people doing 90 per cent of the work as far as designing the stages, maintaining range equipment and so on. Of course there are others who freely give of their time to come early to set up and they stay late to tear down. For our upcoming four classifier special I'll build all of the props, print the score sheets, set up, tear down, and do the stats. I'll also pay full price. Why do we do it? To have a place to shoot and to promote the shooting sports. It just goes with the territory.

As the work horses burn out we try to involve other people. When I ask a person to set up a stage it's because I am tired, burned out, and pissed off. The biggest incentive a shooter can have for designing a stage is to show those who do most of the work that there are still folks who are willing to lend a hand to keep the club going. It is refreshing to have people help out. When someone helps me out, I get renewed and I continue to work. If shooters aren't willing to help, eventually the end result is a fragmented club, burned out leadership, and the club will die.

[Mistral404]

Our club everyone is expected to help setup and tear down. Many share the RO and Clipboard duties. A few do the stage designs and even fewer run the statistics for a match.

No discount given.

There is considerable carping about people who show up late and leave early. Some people will do one but not the other. There has been some talk about tracking those who work and applying some sort of discount. But the talk has never proceeded to the details stage.

The first time I shot a match on Thursday Night at Ben Avery[sp], I helped set up, when paying for the match I was pleasantly surprised by a discounted fee when I paid for it.

[Flexmoney]

My first year shooting USPSA, my girlfriend and I went to shoot a special classifer match at the Lima, Ohio club.

Setup crew consisted of my girlfriend, myself, and the 3 guys running the match. There was another dozen or so people standing around.

That was the last time I ever shot at Lima...the club dissolved soon after.

Whatever the local match situation...we have to find a way to spread the work-load...build a "team".

[rhino]

joey, you can shoot for free but i'm not paying you $1 million. 100 thousand maybe, if you shoot my green glock and wear a dress

I might be willing to wear the dress, but I won't shoot the Glock!

I just reminded myself of "Blazing Saddles"!

[rhino]

I don't think anyone should be coerced or "expected" to do anything they don't want to do. There's nothing inherently wrong with paying your money and shooting. A lot of people are conditioned to that by other sports like golf. In fact, many of them would not shoot at all if you tried to force them to help.

That's why there is inherent grace and goodness in lending a hand and helping.

I don't think anyone should be pilloried because they don't want to spend their weekend working on a match. It's just that eventually they will have to deal with the consequences when they show up one Sunday and no one is there to put the match on.

[SmittyFL]

Rhino:

This is a volunteer sport, at local matches shooters, all shooters should be expected to help set up, tear down, ro, score, whatever needs to be done. If they just want to show up and shoot and leave, then don't even bother coming. My favorite is the guys that arrive 10 minutes before the walk thru and then bitch about the stages. "That's to much running, this isn't an athletic competition / that target is to close to the 180 / that port is to low / this stage has to high of a round count / this stage has to low of a round count" and then as soon as they finish shooting they take off.

If they don't want to spend their weekend helping and supporting the sport they enjoy then they are welcome to go play golf. In fact I'll give them directions to the nearest waste of good shooting range.......I mean golf course.

I guess this should go in the hate forum, but those kind of shooters F'in piss me off!!!!

[Rufus The Bum]

I agree in that if you don't help set stages, then at least have the courtesy not to complain. I know this has been debated over and over on this forum, but the point I was trying to make is that if you want good stages, I mean REALLY good stages, clubs should offer some sort of incentive. Our club offers no incentive to stage setters and it shows, the stages suck. I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT HAVING TO SET STAGES, LETS GET THAT STRAIGHT, I ALWAYS SET STAGES EVERY MATCH. After years of setting at least 3 stages, twice a month for years, it gets really old, even though this is a "hobby"

However, I don't buy into the "If you don't help, then stay the F&*% away mentality either" If someone chooses not to help, then so be it.

Ron Ankeny hit the nail on the head when he said "It is refreshing to have people help out. When someone helps me out, I get renewed and I continue to work. If shooters aren't willing to help, eventually the end result is a fragmented club, burned out leadership, and the club will die."

A good club is run like a business. A good business has to spend money to make money.

[SmittyFL]

Rufus:

I know where you are coming from. I'm just not sure it's necessary or that it would improve stages. One of the clubs I shoot at gives you I think 3 bucks off the match fee if you help set up. Another club doesn't go anything. And it's the same people that help set up at both clubs. My point is I think if someone is the type of person that helps his friends out then they are going to do it no matter what. And the club has to stay afloat, so you can't give too much away. If you offered a free match then that would probably bring out many more people to "help" set up by getting there early and standing around BSing.

I also fully understand guys getting burned out. If the guys that have been shooting at these clubs for 10 or 15 years didn't want to help all the time I would be cool with that. But you know what, those guys are there most of the time because they know what needs to be done to put on a match.

You know who I'm talking about, the guys who don't lift a finger.....ever. Those are the ones I can't stand. I just don't think offering what the club could afford, which wouldn't be much, would help bring out other people or improve stages. Maybe it would, I just don't think so.

[Al Capizzo]

I am currently Pres. of our local club. We had the usual problem with the same people (3 of them) setting up and usually tearing down with little or no help.

After a couple of years of this, two of them quit shooting USPSA matches.

This year we offered to PAY $50 each month for up to 3 people to set up (still expecting shooters to help with tear down), had two people take me up on it, and they're new and enthusiastic and probably would be helping anyway. Of course we raised match fees to cover the new expense, which didn't make anyone happy, but its either that or shoot an El Prez 3 times every month.

Anyone else tried this approach?

Al

[JFD]

I don't offer anything to help setup the match. Past experience before I took over as MD showed that me and the MD at that time were all that would be there anyway. These days it's me as the MD and the former MD helping out.

If I hadn't taken over as MD, the club would have been dead this year, that shows how many people give a crap. Of course this didn't involve all shooters, as only club members can be MD.

With the lack of help, I now set up at night on the Friday and Saturday before the match. The former MD shows up and helps me staple on Sunday morning, but his function is more to lend an expert eye to the stages and offer up suggestions. It would suit me if he didn't actually do more than that, as he set up by himself for years and deserves a break. We've had more and more shooters showing up early with the intention of helping(maybe), but by that time we're finished.

Personally speaking, I find setting up at night better. If I work my butt off Sunday morning then I shoot like crap.

I offer a $10 discount to one guy to RO(I'm positive he would do it for free). This gives me an RO for 2 squads, which is all I need right now. In our typical squad we have at least 4 people who will RO, making sure no one gets tired of it or it bothers their shooting. Generally we have the same number of people who will score. All but the one guy do so by choice and for free. I can't afford to give out more discounts right now.

About half of my shooters now help with tear down, especially getting the steel back to our storage area. I typically break it all down and store it.

We already lost one local match this year due to MD burnout/lack of help, and mine was barely saved. When I get tired of it I imagine it will die as well. From what I see, the younger generation of shooters seem to think us older guys will keep doing it forever. I believe the realization that one match has already been lost is driving those who now help me.

Obviously I appreciate the guys who help, but I don't particularly dislike those who don't. They all provide the money, so in the end they are all helping.

If I want a lot of help, then I'd have to run another IDPA match(we already have 1 IDPA match). IDPA shooters seem much more willing to help. I'm already being pressed to drop USPSA affiliation and start a sort of outlaw IDPA match without the really irritating rules. Attendence would double. I don't want to do that unless USPSA does something horrible, like screw up the L-10 division.

I'll be providing a stage for our section match early next year. From what I understand, this involves providing everything but the dirt, as well as running the stage. For that, I'll get to shoot for free and get the T-shirt free as well. This range hosts a number of bigger matches, so I hope to provide a stage for all of them.

Without help, there would be no matches. I hope our shooters don't have to keep learning the hard way.

[LPatterson]

At my home club they use an incentive for people who help setup the stages or RO. We pay $5.00 to cover the cost of paying USPSA. We have enough RO's that the replacement RO's shoot through at each stage then relieve the RO of a stage so they can go shoot. Normally most shooters help tear down however lately our GM,M & A shooters have been doing a shoot and scoot. I guess they have gotten too good to work with the peon's. At today's match the HOA Limited 10 winner (GM) HOA Limited winner (M) and A class Limited all left before final scores were posted.

[MoNsTeR]

* MoNsTeR puts his economist hat on *

Simply put, incentives matter. Incentives are, in fact, THE driving force behind all deliberate human behavior. For some folks, the satisfaction of a job well done is incentive enough, these are the guys that are willing to do all the work for "nothing" in return. Others need a little push.

Perhaps those who are of the opinion that shooters who don't lend a big hand are jerks, are right. Maybe there is a significant moral failure here, indicative of the state of the human condition broadly conceived. Or maybe they just need $10 worth of motivation to get up 2 hours earlier on a Sunday. Regardless of the answer to the moral question, the answer to the economic question is this: you will get more help if you provide incentives.

In the words of Adam Smith:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.

[kurtm]

I don't know about incentives, I always try to arrive early to help set up, as I have been instrumental in putting on matches since 1995 ( 3-gun ) and know how much work it can be. Set up alone, out of 6 stages, I found myself tapeing my own stage ( shooter on deck ) 3 out of 6 stages. Yea it was a drizzlly windy day, but come on!!! When only one guy is taping for an 8 man squad , it tends to slow things down. 3 times I was callled as the next shooter, while I was down range tapeing.......Why you ask??? because no one else was there!!! Set up??? Tear down??? How about help DURRING a shoot. Yea you can call for tapers and brassers from the shooting order but when they just don't show what do you do?? I say you issue orange score cards to those who don't wish to help, they pay $10.00 extra, and at the end of the day the extra money is split by those who actually help. I figure from my squad alone, there would have been 50.00 extra for those who helped to split. KURT

[Larry White]

At our club the MD for our regular match shoots free. Folks who show up sat for set up get 1 chance each match for a drawing for a new ar at the end of the year. Seems to have helped some. Everone is expected to help tear down, we are still a little weak in the teardown but I have seen it worse. Seems like you just have to shame them once in a while. Larry

[Don45cal]

I shoot at several clubs. Some offer an incentive and some don't. I like to help so I show up early. Helping also gives me a chance to view the stage early.

I have a problem with "expecting" people to help.

The folks who just show up and shoot have every right to do so. You see they "Paid" a fee to shoot the match. "Paid" 20.00 plus any additional funds for special classifiers. That word Fee is why people show up, shoot and leave!!

Do you really feel it is a good practice to charge a Fee and expect Free labor?