Getting Cash to win a match/division

[Dan Hefta]

A few years ago when I was an infant in this sport I was at the Area 5 match and I won D class Production, I received a plaque and cash it really motivated me and I have been hooked ever since. The point I am making is that not only the top shooters get paid.

[bkeeler]

I wouldn't mind a cash payout. If you won some cash that could help expenses. A lot of people (not all)sell what ever they get from a prize table anyway(check out the classifieds.) I like the way NSSA does it for skeet shooting look Here.

BK

[Jim Norman]

First, I didn't bother reading all the pro-con arguments above, so I apologize if this is all repeat.

In our section we have a scheduled payout for club level (Level 1) matches.

Division Winner: $ 30.00 (5 in division)

Class Winner: $ 20.00 (3 shooters in class)

Second Place: $ 12.00 (8 shooters in class)

Third Place: $ 8.00 (15 shooters in class)

We also have the option of plaques or trophies. so long as they are of the same approximate value.

Most shooters opt for the cash after their first or second win. A wall full of plaques is nice to a point, but a few dozen First A form a local match can get old. Also from a match management point of view mailing or handing out checks is far less taxing on staff than obtaining and transporting a few dozen plaques.

We almost never get a plaque request anymore

Jim

[Micah]

God forbid we actually reward performance....

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Why shouldn't someone get a little something back for all the time, effort, and money that is invested to become a "top" shooter?

I'm no "top" shooter, but I am a Master that has worked his ass off to get where I am today. Several thoughts now:

-NO club match that I have been to kicks back any money to div/class winners. Hell, there often times isn't enough to cut breaks for the stats guy/RO's

-If possible (Thomas ) why not kick back the match fee to the div winners? Hopefully they are doing their part in coaching, RO'ing, and such

-Very few people get rich in this sport, but winning a little dough is always fun, especially when the winner spreads the love and buys the first pitcher after the match

-Finally, if you are fortunate enough to shoot at a club that has the money to kick a little back to a few shooters, you should consider yourself fortunate to have such a successful, popular, and well funded club to go to. If it bothers you that much, shoot somewhere else, learn to accept it, or practice.

Just my thoughts Nothing more, nothing less.

[kevin c]

First, I didn't bother reading all the pro-con arguments above, so I apologize if this is all repeat.

In our section we have a scheduled payout for club level (Level 1) matches.

Division Winner: $ 30.00 (5 in division)

Class Winner: $ 20.00 (3 shooters in class)

Second Place: $ 12.00 (8 shooters in class)

Third Place: $ 8.00 (15 shooters in class)

We also have the option of plaques or trophies. so long as they are of the same approximate value.

Most shooters opt for the cash after their first or second win. A wall full of plaques is nice to a point, but a few dozen First A form a local match can get old. Also from a match management point of view mailing or handing out checks is far less taxing on staff than obtaining and transporting a few dozen plaques.

We almost never get a plaque request anymore

Jim

We've been doing something similar at my club, the options being plaques or prizes. In our case, the prizes are primers instead of cash. We award top three in a Division with enough participation, as well as by finish in class in each division. That is a compromise that covers overall performance to a degree, as well as class recognition (primer award is much larger for the overall awards, so there's an incentive to try to improve). The cost, so far, has been the same.

So far, the perennial top dogs opt for primers, and the newer shooters like their trophies. The # of primers given out is calculated to match the cost of the equivalent award plaque that would have been used instead, so there shouldn't be a change in cost regardless of how many opt for one or the other. Year end awards (some really nice belt buckles) aren't changed.

[Carmoney]

Plaques and trophies are fine, but I shoot better when there's cash on the line. Always have.

Guess I started out shooting with a bunch of mercenaries, and it stuck.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem shooting for plaques (or nothing other than the pride of winning the division, for that matter), as long as the entry fee stays cheap!

[Chuck Anderson]

so seems like most are OK with the top guys getting big cash and the Classes that support most matches the C and B shooters supsudize them? is that what i am reading?

some are making a descison on where to shoot based on money payout . Example: Heard Taran Say on burkett's radio show he went to a glock match and could win $3000.00 instead of a frame at another match the same weekend. which started this question

I also understand the easier to write checks than to call sponsors and plead.

Just don't think you should pay CASH in an ametuar Sport it's a slippery slope.

This N0 slight to the matches that Pay cash

The match Taran was talking about is the Gunny Match sponsored by Glock. It's their advertising, they only invite certain people, there is no entry fee, and no B and C class shooters supporting him. Are you telling me that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing? Shoot a match with a chance at winning $3000.00 cash, and not having to pay an entry fee, or shooting a match, paying an entry fee and winning the frame.

For the matches that pay cash, you're going to see smaller returns to the shooters than if a proper prize table was run. The sponsors will give stuff or sell it at a greatly reduced cost. For example at Area 1 this year we spent around 6K on the prize table. The total value of the prize table was over 125K. If we had just given the 6K away to shooters, by any means, would that have been as successful?

I have to say it really pisses me off when I hear someone complain about the "Top Shooters". How do you think they got to be top shooters? Is there a single one at the top of the game that hasn't been shooting for years. How many were instant GM the first day they shot the match. As far as the people that think they are uanpproachable jerks, I'm guessing that's more on your end than theirs. I've seen every one of these guys talking to D, C, B, A and even M class shooters. I've seen many of them bend over backward and take time out of their match to fix another shooters broken gun or loan or offer up gear to someone.

And as far as the amatuer sport thing, sorry, doesn't hold water. When we have pros shooting the sport is no longer purely amatuer. When there are shooters that depend on IPSC for their livelyhood, that's not amatuer.

[larry cazes]

The match Taran was talking about is the Gunny Match sponsored by Glock. It's their advertising, they only invite certain people, there is no entry fee, and no B and C class shooters supporting him. Are you telling me that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing? Shoot a match with a chance at winning $3000.00 cash, and not having to pay an entry fee, or shooting a match, paying an entry fee and winning the frame.

For the matches that pay cash, you're going to see smaller returns to the shooters than if a proper prize table was run. The sponsors will give stuff or sell it at a greatly reduced cost. For example at Area 1 this year we spent around 6K on the prize table. The total value of the prize table was over 125K. If we had just given the 6K away to shooters, by any means, would that have been as successful?

I am not doubting that this is true but I rarely get anything that I want from prize tables. I have a workbench worth of parts, hearing protectors, and cleaning kits from prize tables over the years I dont begrudge anyone their hard earned prizes, though. I just prefer less value but cash for this reason.

I have to say it really pisses me off when I hear someone complain about the "Top Shooters". How do you think they got to be top shooters? Is there a single one at the top of the game that hasn't been shooting for years. How many were instant GM the first day they shot the match. As far as the people that think they are uanpproachable jerks, I'm guessing that's more on your end than theirs. I've seen every one of these guys talking to D, C, B, A and even M class shooters. I've seen many of them bend over backward and take time out of their match to fix another shooters broken gun or loan or offer up gear to someone.

And as far as the amatuer sport thing, sorry, doesn't hold water. When we have pros shooting the sport is no longer purely amatuer. When there are shooters that depend on IPSC for their livelyhood, that's not amatuer.

So true, well said.

[Coolduckboy]

The match Taran was talking about is the Gunny Match sponsored by Glock. It's their advertising, they only invite certain people, there is no entry fee, and no B and C class shooters supporting him. Are you telling me that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing? Shoot a match with a chance at winning $3000.00 cash, and not having to pay an entry fee, or shooting a match, paying an entry fee and winning the frame.

For the matches that pay cash, you're going to see smaller returns to the shooters than if a proper prize table was run. The sponsors will give stuff or sell it at a greatly reduced cost. For example at Area 1 this year we spent around 6K on the prize table. The total value of the prize table was over 125K. If we had just given the 6K away to shooters, by any means, would that have been as successful?

I am not doubting that this is true but I rarely get anything that I want from prize tables. I have a workbench worth of parts, hearing protectors, and cleaning kits from prize tables over the years I dont begrudge anyone their hard earned prizes, though. I just prefer less value but cash for this reason.

I have to say it really pisses me off when I hear someone complain about the "Top Shooters". How do you think they got to be top shooters? Is there a single one at the top of the game that hasn't been shooting for years. How many were instant GM the first day they shot the match. As far as the people that think they are uanpproachable jerks, I'm guessing that's more on your end than theirs. I've seen every one of these guys talking to D, C, B, A and even M class shooters. I've seen many of them bend over backward and take time out of their match to fix another shooters broken gun or loan or offer up gear to someone.

And as far as the amatuer sport thing, sorry, doesn't hold water. When we have pros shooting the sport is no longer purely amatuer. When there are shooters that depend on IPSC for their livelyhood, that's not amatuer.

So true, well said.

You might have a workbench worth of shooting products but i know i don't have a workbench nor any extra equipment.

[scorch]

Paying cash would be easier but less to spread around Value Wise 6K=125K. We fixed the "I allready got a dozen of those from the prize table" by letting you pick anything left when we call your name.

Edited December 3, 2008 by scorch

[Jim Norman]

Somehow I think that we have two concurrent threads here.

There are Club Matches and they rarely have a prize table, they may as our section clubs do, have a cash/plaque option that is roughly the same as the match fee and is paid out if a sufficient number of people shoot the division and class.

Then there are Section/Area/State/Special Matches that are a once a year thing and have dedicated people to build a prize table and year to do it in.

Personally I like how Summer Blast and World Class Steel do it. Shoot for cash and prizes are distributed by lottery. The top dogs can win and win well, the average Joe still has a shot and everyone gets a chance at the big prizes just by showing up.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Jim

[VegasOPM]

FWIW, I'd rather have stuff than cash on the prize table. I have more fun swapping the prizes with other shooters. The way I see it, I work for cash, I play for stuff. From the sponsors point of view, it makes a lot more sense for them to give away their product, rather than cash. I'm afraid that if we start leaning on them to offer cash prizes, we will see a lot less value on the prize table.

Even as a lowly "B" shooter, I do agree to awarding based on overall placement in division. As for overall performance, I'm not so sure. A "B" Open shooter with optics, major pf, comp and a 30+ round magazine has a lot more chance of placing higher overall than me in Production with irons, minor pf and 10 round mags. That would negate the value of having different divisions and really turn off entry level shooters. I agree that there are a lot of sand baggers out there and they tend to show up at a lot of big matches in "B", "C" and "D" classes.

[bkeeler]

Sponsors can still donate prizes doesn't have to be cash.

Pulled from NSSA with a few changes.

EXAMPLE

You’re in A class limited. When signing up, you pay $32.00 to shoot in the event. $22.00 goes towards targets and administration expenses, $ 2.00 towards the championship pool, and $ 8.00 goes into your A class/division pool.

Let's assume that a total of 35 shooters have entered this event in limited.

We'll assume, that including yourself, 10 shooters entered in A class, for this event. Your buddy, who is in the same class as you, wins the event in limited. You finish second in A class. Since the champion cannot win the class money, he is removed, and you win in A class.

The money would be split as follows:

Champion $ 70.00 = $ 2.00 x 35 shooters

A class --- Total purse $ 80.00 --- Split 50/30/20

1st Place ---- $40.00

2nd Place ---- 24.00

3rd Place ----- 16.00

All other classes/divisions in this event would be determined the same way.

BK

[scorch]

The Third place Crystal trophies at our match are twice as much than $16.00 and you still go to the prize table, lowest retail vaule on the table is around $60.00.

[IYAOYAS]

For local matches here in Oklahoma were lucky if we see match results in less than a week much less any prizes.Most matches including USSA give nothing.

[impala ss]

Looks like more and more USPSA matches are giving away CASH to attract and pay only the top shooters to their matches. Distrubs me, what do you Guys think?

Trophys and plaques are nice at first,but you runout of space real quick! Cash looks good no mater where you hang it! Frank

[Gregory_k]

Cash is always better. Not much btu's in plaques or trophies for the cost.

[nmipsc]

Ok let me clearify. I don't blame the top guys for going where the money is (But don't they allready have a sponsor that pays them to shoot IE: Army, Glock, S&W). I blame the MD for putting on half a-- simple stage match which makes it even easier for the top guys to beat everyone and then attract the top guys by paying out big money. So some folks putting on a good to great match is not the draw anymore.... it's the money? I guess that is the point, money verse great matches. like Area 2, besides Taran and Henning, no names!

Edited December 29, 2008 by nmipsc

[ima45dv8]

So you don't like cash paybacks? That's cool. Don't go to matches that advertise as such.

If there's no matches in your area that meet your idea of how the prizes should be handled, put on a match of your own. Be sure to place a notice in the Match Announcements section. You never know but that those who prefer a trophy-only match will beat a path to your door. Put on some good stages and I might even round up some folks and take a road trip. Cash or not isn't what gets my attention, it's the quality of the stages that gets me excited.

Ok let me clearify. I don't blame the top guys for going where the money is (But don't they allready have a sponsor that pays them to shoot IE: Army, Glock, S&W).

Ask some of them if their sponsorship pays the full ride. Or is it that even if their sponsor doesn't pay for everything just to have use of their name and likeness, they should stay away from any event where they might have a chance to earn (because they do work for it before the match ever starts) a little more?

I blame the MD for putting on half a-- simple stage match which makes it even easier for the top guys to beat everyone and then attract the top guys by paying out big money.

Blame? You make it sound like a conspiracy where the oh-so-lazy MD decides to hand cash out to his closest friends if they show up to shoot his sorry match. So once again, maybe you should put on your own match. Or just maybe a better first experience would be to at least volunteer to oversee sponsor participation and the prize table/disbursement portion of the next match held by whoever that lazy MD is that you're carrying the resentment for.

And for the record, the top guys don't whip our collective butts because stages aren't well-designed or challenging enough. They win because they've put the effort into becoming one of the "top guys".

So some folks putting on a good to great match is not the draw anymore.... it's the money? I guess that is the point, money verse great matches. like Area 2, besides Taran and Henning, no names!

Guess all you want, but that sounds like all you're doing. Get out and shoot some majors and experience the various flavors available. Some pay cash....some don't. You choose.

Really, I don't mean to sound like a smart-ass. But it's just so easy to sit back and point fingers at "they" and "them" and tell how they and them need to do it better. Get involved. You have ideas how it should be done. Roll up your sleeves and jump in!

[AlamoShooter]

I don't have a problem with any of it , Pay /Don't pay, I don't think its Good or Bad.

Like Shred said If a match can attract big names to the match, I am one of the guys that will pay extra to place 10 to 20 places lower than the big guys just to have the opportunity to play.

I spend a lot more $$$ to go to the Steel Challenge to get to shoot with better shooters. and find out how I place to the Big Dogs.

I also remember back in 1993 at an early clays event. I had practiced hard and payed for lessons. I got a win in C class at a big club shoot. the envelope had over $200 dollars in it. I liked it , but it made me wonder just how much the match would cost with out the payback. tuned out it was $20 of the entry fee went into a payout pot only $15 stayed in class. In the last years I shot clays the "Pot" was an option at most events and you payed extra to be included in the pot. I'd like to remember thous years as coming out on the + side of the dollars in and dollars back to me.

The Texas Open had a payout, good one for first place, I got A placket for Third place over all, and $50.00

If every shooter could have paid $5.00 less for the event and not had a third place pay-out, = that would have been my vote. BUT! I am not going to give the cash back

a PIE would have been nice though

Pay =Out or Not we have a great sport and good people at ALL levels, and all divisions

[Jay6]

It seems to me that this issue is created since this sport is so much "different" than other sports around. No where else can a lowly "hobby" participant get to play along side the current national champion. People who shoot for a living are typically not already wealthy so they need to be compensated in order to keep doing their job or at least break even for their efforts. Just being able to shoot in a squad with somoeone who shoots for a living is well worth a match fee in my opinion. If you were able to tee it up at the masters with Tiger Woods, would you really complain that he got the cash payout at the end of the day and you did not receive anything for breaking your personal best score? The EXPERIENCE is the payout! Anything in addition to that is just gravy.

[Flexmoney]

Ok let me clearify. I don't blame the top guys for going where the money is (But don't they allready have a sponsor that pays them to shoot IE: Army, Glock, S&W). I blame the MD for putting on half a-- simple stage match which makes it even easier for the top guys to beat everyone and then attract the top guys by paying out big money. So some folks putting on a good to great match is not the draw anymore.... it's the money? I guess that is the point, money verse great matches. like Area 2, besides Taran and Henning, no names!

I can't make heads or tails of your post. ???

Area 2 pays out a great prize table. Area 2 is also a match that has very good shooting challenges (per my experience shooting it in 2007)...it's a "great match".

Top shooters don't benefit from "simple" stages. Just the opposite. On a simple stage, or hoser stage, or speed shoot...there is more of a likelihood that somebody other than a top guy will "hero" the stage. That takes match points away from the top shooters. Top shooters benefit from stages that have more going on. More setups, transitions, and all variety of challenges. Top shooters make less mistakes. So, the more complex stages give them a big separation from the rest of the shooters.

I don't get your "no names" comment for Area 2. By my count the match had 30 Grand Master shooters and 41 Masters. That is over 70 shooter at Master or GM...and I recognize quite a few "names" in there.

[nmipsc]

OK the whole real jess is that MOST of the big matches paying out money the entry fee is around or above $200.00. That is a good chunk of change. So just to compete with Joe Blow's Payout Match, other matches will need to raise their entry fee to the same price so they can payout the Big Money also. to try and draw the "names." Seems that some would not let some play because they where priced out of the matches. it's expensesive enough. Seen this in shotgun clay's

Just cause you have a GM card don't make you a name. There are lots of GM's that never win big matches, like area 2. Just like pro golfers, lot of good ones out there, just a few you have heard of that won the match.

The GM's I respect the most are the ones that have another JOB like Jake D. and Adam P. off the top of my head.

"Names" make a living shooting, either shooting, giving classes $275-$300 a day per person, being on TV with pro tips, shot show appearances and all the other stuff that goes with being a "name" not just pulling the trigger at a match. I don't begrudge them some have spent a life time getting where they can shoot. Just lets not make this a money race with entry fees. Not trying to piss anyone off. just seems like s slippery slope. If i sound like i'm whining, i am sorry that is not my intentions

How much more would you want to pay to shoot with the "names"? $60.00 to $100.00 more.? or does it matter if they are there?

Edited December 29, 2008 by nmipsc

[ima45dv8]

So just to compete with Joe Blow's Payout Match, other matches will need to raise their entry fee to the same price so they can payout the Big Money also. to try and draw the "names." Seems that some would not let some play because they where priced out of the matches. it's expensesive enough. Seen this in shotgun clay's

I've seen matches that raised entry fees so they could go the cash payback route, but as far as I know, none of them did it to draw these "names" you refer to (and I know one or two of the MDs I speak of). It's really quite simple. If your customers want cash back, there has to be cash with which to pay. You have to either cut expenses or raise match fees.

How much more would you want to pay to shoot with the "names"? $60.00 to $100.00 more.? or does it matter if they are there?

I wouldn't. Except for local Level I events where a number of GMs and Ms have walked up and asked, "Can I squad with you guys?", I'm not likely to be shooting with them anyway. Most majors group these folks together on Super Squads and I'm not in that strata.

I guess I don't see higher match fees the same as you do. I like to consider the entire experience -- reputation of the host facility for good stages, location, amenities like shirts (almost my entire wardrobe at this point), whether they are new to the "large match" format (you have to fund the investment in props and materials), meals that may be provided, potential cash payouts for a lowly B shooter like me, prize tables, RO incentives and goodies, etc. And at the end of the day, match fees are no where near the greatest expense associated with shooting major matches. It's a drop in the bucket compared to guns, ammo, hotels, meals, travel, clothing, fuel, gear, bar tab, etc.

I just don't see higher match fees strictly as a draw for "names". If there were no "names" there I wouldn't skip the match based solely on that point. Like I said, travel around some if you can fit it in. I've been to a number of Level II and III matches with cash paybacks and/or great prizes where the match fee was well under $200. If that doesn't fit your schedule or budget, get involved with whatever's nearest to you and help make it something that won't cause you so much heartburn.

[Chuck Anderson]

OK the whole real jess is that MOST of the big matches paying out money the entry fee is around or above $200.00. That is a good chunk of change. So just to compete with Joe Blow's Payout Match, other matches will need to raise their entry fee to the same price so they can payout the Big Money also. to try and draw the "names." Seems that some would not let some play because they where priced out of the matches. it's expensesive enough. Seen this in shotgun clay's

Just cause you have a GM card don't make you a name. There are lots of GM's that never win big matches, like area 2. Just like pro golfers, lot of good ones out there, just a few you have heard of that won the match.

The GM's I respect the most are the ones that have another JOB like Jake D. and Adam P. off the top of my head.

"Names" make a living shooting, either shooting, giving classes $275-$300 a day per person, being on TV with pro tips, shot show appearances and all the other stuff that goes with being a "name" not just pulling the trigger at a match. I don't begrudge them some have spent a life time getting where they can shoot. Just lets not make this a money race with entry fees. Not trying to piss anyone off. just seems like s slippery slope. If i sound like i'm whining, i am sorry that is not my intentions

How much more would you want to pay to shoot with the "names"? $60.00 to $100.00 more.? or does it matter if they are there?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come off as an ass but have you actually shot any of these matches you're talking about? I'm having a hard time thinking of many big matches that have a cash payback. And very few have an entry fee over $200.00. Off the top of my head, I can think of Nationals, Area 2, and a bunch of three gun matches where the entry fee is over $200.00. I'm sure I'm missing some. I'm also sure none of the matches I mentioned are cash back matches. I think the biggest cash back (entry fee wise) match is Area 6. The entry fee to that match is $160.00.

Seems like your complaint is matches raising the entry fee to offer cash payback. If that is the case your arguments using Area 2 as an example are invalid. Area 2 is a prize table match. If you're upset about matches raising the entry fee to pay for prize tables, this really is not the right thread. The name would certainly be misleading. Area 2 has a high cost because they buy a lot of prizes. Nationals has a high cost because they pay a lot for the RO's.

And just so I get who you respect. It's GM's that don't win matches because they have other jobs. The ones who win matches and are names you don't respect?